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afvet5963
Guest
My priest made the remark that the gates of Heaven were closed until Jesus arose from the grave. Could someone explain this to me? I thought Heaven was always open.
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Robbinson
Guest
The Church’s teaching (and most Christian denominational understanding) is that prior to the Christ’s redemptive work, those saints/righteous were in “Abraham’s bossom” (note the parable of the richman and Lazarus) which was a waiting place in Sheoul for the righteous. When Jesus descended to the dead he “released the prisoners” (righteous) who then entered heaven.
Blessings,
Brian
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TomD123
Guest
Adam’s sin caused heaven to be closed to humans, Christ’s death reopened heaven.
This is a good source for questions on teachings- your question would be discussed in lesson 5 & 8
catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/
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Caminante
Guest
Almost 40 years ago I was reading the 2nd account of creation, particularly where God tells Adam and Eve in effect: You may eat of all the trees in the garden except that of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. On that day you shall surely die."
Most of us are told as children that it was an apple that they ate simply because we are not able to understand the enormity of what they did. Then, most of never think about it.
I read the passage and then read the footnote;
"This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on. Hence it does not mean omniscience which falen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for fallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and evil , and of acting accordingly, a claim of to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognize his status as a created being. The first sin was a sin of pride. This rebellion is described in concrete terms of an express command of God for which the text uses the image of a forbidden fruit. (Jerusalem Bible, Thin Paper Edition, 1966)
And in light of the normal biblical use of the word “knowledge” as I understand it, it seemed like I saw a bright a bright light like a camera flashbulb (I am dating myself here) had gone off and I then understood the enormity of Original Sin. The other effect it had was that I actually, and it seemed involuntary, was to jump out of my chair to tell someone. However, everyone else of my family were in bed sleeping (12:30 AM).
Was it a “light of understanding?” I don’t know what it really was. I cannot and will not even say it was some sort of private revelation because I, like every other human being, have the God-given gifts of intellect and reason that God expects us to use properly. I can only describe what I experienced.
Most of us are told as children that it was an apple that they ate simply because we are not able to understand the enormity of what they did. Then, most of never think about it.
I read the passage and then read the footnote;
"This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on. Hence it does not mean omniscience which falen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for fallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and evil , and of acting accordingly, a claim of to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognize his status as a created being. The first sin was a sin of pride. This rebellion is described in concrete terms of an express command of God for which the text uses the image of a forbidden fruit. (Jerusalem Bible, Thin Paper Edition, 1966)
And in light of the normal biblical use of the word “knowledge” as I understand it, it seemed like I saw a bright a bright light like a camera flashbulb (I am dating myself here) had gone off and I then understood the enormity of Original Sin. The other effect it had was that I actually, and it seemed involuntary, was to jump out of my chair to tell someone. However, everyone else of my family were in bed sleeping (12:30 AM).
Was it a “light of understanding?” I don’t know what it really was. I cannot and will not even say it was some sort of private revelation because I, like every other human being, have the God-given gifts of intellect and reason that God expects us to use properly. I can only describe what I experienced.
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Caminante
Guest
added comment…
Does anyone think Original Sin was sufficient to close the gates of heaven. Since God lives/exists in the ever present now, He knew that dam and Eve would fall and He already had a plan in motion…
Does anyone think Original Sin was sufficient to close the gates of heaven. Since God lives/exists in the ever present now, He knew that dam and Eve would fall and He already had a plan in motion…
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NotWorthy
Guest
God wants all things perfect to be in heaven. So yes, Original Sin was sufficient to close the gates of heaven.
Christ makes us perfect in Him.
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TimothyH
Guest
Don’t forget, God is outside of time. For him, closing the gates of heaven and opening them occur at the same… er… um… time.
-Tim-
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afvet5963
Guest
Is there a specific Bible passage that states that Jesus descended to the dead? As much as I have read the Bible, I don’t recall anything of that nature.
While some may think I have a strong streak on Gnosticism, I am only trying to settle in my mind some of the questions that I have about the Catholic belief system. Don’t get me wrong; I know that this is the correct way for me to come to know God in a more intimate way, but He made me inquisitive and I am using that ability to know Him better.
While some may think I have a strong streak on Gnosticism, I am only trying to settle in my mind some of the questions that I have about the Catholic belief system. Don’t get me wrong; I know that this is the correct way for me to come to know God in a more intimate way, but He made me inquisitive and I am using that ability to know Him better.
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thistle
Guest
Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Haydock Commentary:
Ver. 9. Into the lower parts of the earth. This cannot signify into the grave only, especially since in that which we look upon as the apostles’ creed, we first profess to believe that he was buried, and afterwards that he descended into hell. (Witham)
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pablope
Guest
Yes, in one of Peter’s letters.
1Peter 3:
18For Christ also suffered** once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, **19in which[c] he went and proclaimed[d] to the spirits in prison, 20because[e] they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
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FCEGM
Guest
This, from the Office of Readings for Holy Saturday, reflects the Scripture passages above:
*Something strange is happening - there is a great silence on earth today, a great silence and stillness. The whole earth keeps silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. God has died in the flesh and hell trembles with fear.
He has gone to search for our first parent, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow the captives Adam and Eve, he who is both God and the son of Eve. The Lord approached them bearing the cross, the weapon that had won him the victory. At the sight of him Adam, the first man he had created, struck his breast in terror and cried out to everyone: “My Lord be with you all”. Christ answered him: “And with your spirit”. He took him by the hand and raised him up, saying: “Awake, O sleeper, and rise from the dead, and Christ will give you light”.
I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. Out of love for you and for your descendants I now by my own authority command all who are held in bondage to come forth, all who are in darkness to be enlightened, all who are sleeping to arise. I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be held a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead. Rise up, work of my hands, you who were created in my image. Rise, let us leave this place, for you are in me and I am in you; together we form only one person and we cannot be separated. For your sake I, your God, became your son; I, the Lord, took the form of a slave; I, whose home is above the heavens, descended to the earth and beneath the earth. For your sake, for the sake of man, I became like a man without help, free among the dead. For the sake of you, who left a garden, I was betrayed to the Jews in a garden, and I was crucified in a garden.
See on my face the spittle I received in order to restore to you the life I once breathed into you. See there the marks of the blows I received in order to refashion your warped nature in my image. On my back see the marks of the scourging I endured to remove the burden of sin that weighs upon your back. See my hands, nailed firmly to a tree, for you who once wickedly stretched out your hand to a tree.
I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side for you who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side has healed the pain in yours. My sleep will rouse you from your sleep in hell. The sword that pierced me has sheathed the sword that was turned against you.
Rise, let us leave this place. The enemy led you out of the earthly paradise. I will not restore you to that paradise, but I will enthrone you in heaven. I forbade you the tree that was only a symbol of life, but see, I who am life itself am now one with you. I appointed cherubim to guard you as slaves are guarded, but now I make them worship you as God. The throne formed by cherubim awaits you, its bearers swift and eager. The bridal chamber is adorned, the banquet is ready, the eternal dwelling places are prepared, the treasure houses of all good things lie open. The kingdom of heaven has been prepared for you from all eternity. *
*Something strange is happening - there is a great silence on earth today, a great silence and stillness. The whole earth keeps silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. God has died in the flesh and hell trembles with fear.
He has gone to search for our first parent, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow the captives Adam and Eve, he who is both God and the son of Eve. The Lord approached them bearing the cross, the weapon that had won him the victory. At the sight of him Adam, the first man he had created, struck his breast in terror and cried out to everyone: “My Lord be with you all”. Christ answered him: “And with your spirit”. He took him by the hand and raised him up, saying: “Awake, O sleeper, and rise from the dead, and Christ will give you light”.
I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. Out of love for you and for your descendants I now by my own authority command all who are held in bondage to come forth, all who are in darkness to be enlightened, all who are sleeping to arise. I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be held a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead. Rise up, work of my hands, you who were created in my image. Rise, let us leave this place, for you are in me and I am in you; together we form only one person and we cannot be separated. For your sake I, your God, became your son; I, the Lord, took the form of a slave; I, whose home is above the heavens, descended to the earth and beneath the earth. For your sake, for the sake of man, I became like a man without help, free among the dead. For the sake of you, who left a garden, I was betrayed to the Jews in a garden, and I was crucified in a garden.
See on my face the spittle I received in order to restore to you the life I once breathed into you. See there the marks of the blows I received in order to refashion your warped nature in my image. On my back see the marks of the scourging I endured to remove the burden of sin that weighs upon your back. See my hands, nailed firmly to a tree, for you who once wickedly stretched out your hand to a tree.
I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side for you who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side has healed the pain in yours. My sleep will rouse you from your sleep in hell. The sword that pierced me has sheathed the sword that was turned against you.
Rise, let us leave this place. The enemy led you out of the earthly paradise. I will not restore you to that paradise, but I will enthrone you in heaven. I forbade you the tree that was only a symbol of life, but see, I who am life itself am now one with you. I appointed cherubim to guard you as slaves are guarded, but now I make them worship you as God. The throne formed by cherubim awaits you, its bearers swift and eager. The bridal chamber is adorned, the banquet is ready, the eternal dwelling places are prepared, the treasure houses of all good things lie open. The kingdom of heaven has been prepared for you from all eternity. *
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afvet5963
Guest
thanx to all for your timely replies. More study will help clear this up for me and you have put me on the correct path
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Caminante
Guest
Tim,Don’t forget, God is outside of time. For him, closing the gates of heaven and opening them occur at the same… er… um… time.
-Tim-
my post was deliberately worded the way it was to encourage everyone to consider a great mystery, to my thinking, as to how God “works” his wonders in both in and outside of time. After all, the “time” we exist in began when He created the universe out of literally nothing 14-15 billion years ago.
Scientists call it big bang theory, nature of which there is much contention between scientists about whether or not there was nothing or an extremely dense something.
I remember an editorial in the New York Daily News (1955 or 1956) about the big bang theory (a theory developed by Fr. LeMaitre, a Jesuit(?) Catholic priest in the 1920’s) which made the statement about the theory and the scientists beginning to examine and begin to understand the theory (paraphrased): “When the scientists climb the “mountain of understanding” they will find that the theologians had climbed that mountain 400 years ago.”
It’s a hard concept to wrap our finite minds around.
If we recognize His absolute omnipotence, He only had to say: “Let there be_______,” a plan that He had in mind for all eternity. He is the eternal “I Am Who Am.”
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