Gates of Hell, One True Catholic Apostolic Church, and the abuse question.

[josie_L]

You know something, I’m studying, reading and researching like crazy, and probably not praying enough. Just plain simple prayer. You made me stop and think. Thanks.

Yes, sometimes we intellectualize our faith too much (me included). but when we look at those whose faith was strongest, it was the humble saints who simply prayed (a lot) who received many graces (and the truth) to live out their christian lives. God bless.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I don’t know. I agree about what was said about Judas, but tonight there was a TV spot regarding chicago (where I live) and, chuck goudie who has admitted he was scandalized by the scandals and has a bit of an axe to grind making his journalism biased I guess, had a new revelation about “talking points” a document released to pastors ONLY on how to prep them for answering questions from parish members on the whole thing. You may or may not know a recent deposition was revealed here. So, it mucks things up a bit. They say, transparancy, we know better, so on. But.

 

[Victorious]

How, how, how can that be possible? How can someone who lies about abuse, covers it up, pays a victim off, then lies about paying them off, end up as a Cardinal in the church God has promised hell will not prevail against.

Is there something profoundly corrupted in the church hierarchy?

There is nothing new about bad bishops and bad cardinals, and even bad Popes. When Jesus promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church, He did not promise that her leaders would be impeccable (i.e., without sin). In fact, Jesus not only admitted Judas Iscariot into the college of Apostles, but also warned us that the Church would contain good and bad people. Read Matthew 13, where Jesus compares the Church (the kingdom of heaven) with the field of wheat and tares, and the net that catches all kinds of fish, good and bad. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, the servants asked the master if they shouldn’t go out and pull them out; and he told them not to do that, lest in uprooting the tares they also uproot the wheat. So Jesus – who does not break the bent reed nor quench the smouldering wick – doesn’t uproot the tares because this would result in greater evil than allowing them to grow to maturity alongside the wheat. Instead, the tares will be dealt with at the time of harvest.

What Jesus did promise in saying that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church is that the Church of the living God is the pillar and bulwark of the truth (cf. 1 Timothy 3:15). And if you look back at her history, it is hard not to be amazed at how she has survived and even thrived amid the bungling, stupid and even downright evil acts of her children. Any merely human institution would have gone down in flames long ago. But however closely the Church comes to the edge of the cliff, she never falls over it. And she never will.

 

[TheQuestioner]

This is a prime example of what I just cannot get my head around in God’s true church:

Former altar boy Andrew Madden becomes first person to speak publicly about abuse by a priest. Madden says the Church paid him €35,000 to keep quiet about three years of assaults by Fr Ivan Payne. Archbishop Desmond Connell denies the deal until Madden provides documentary proof of church payoff. Case spurs hundreds to pursue civil lawsuits against church authorities.

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184828/Revealed-decades-ritual-child-abuse-Catholic-schools-orphanages-damned-report.html#ixzz0NMuzQ8SU

Archbishop Connell is now a Cardinal - after lying, outright lying, about paying off a victim of his priests abuse. As a Cardinal he has also come under a huge amount of criticism by Irish survivers of child abuse by obstructing the commission at every turn, refusing access to documents and so on.

independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-pope-is-right–all-that-matters-is-finding-truth-1282450.html

How, how, how can that be possible? How can someone who lies about abuse, covers it up, pays a victim off, then lies about paying them off, end up as a Cardinal in the church God has promised hell will not prevail against.

Is there something profoundly corrupted in the church hierarchy?

Remember that it may not be the entire Church that paid Andrew so much as the bishop dipping into the funds of the Church. It is easy to clump all people into one group, but it is important to remember that just because one member of the clergy is corrupt, doesn’t mean all are.

 

[gcnuss]

This issue of the gates of hell not prevailing is one that interests me because it is clear (IMO) that the devil is active in our world. He may not prevail in the long run but he certainly makes his presence known and creates a lot of trouble.

It seems to me that the ultimate answer is eschatological – that the final battle described in Revelation will be the time when our Lord and his body, the Church, will prevail once and for all against the powers of evil. Until then, we have a continuing war in which the devil does win skirmishes here and there: in fact, he wins a skirmish every time one of us gives in to sin. The devil wins a skirmish when a Catholic priest – or a Lutheran pastor, or a Baptist minister – becomes involved in an inappropriate sexual relationship, but these failings do not mean that the gates of hell have prevailed, or will prevail, against Christ’s church.

 

[Hesychios]

This is a prime example of what I just cannot get my head around in God’s true church:

Former altar boy Andrew Madden becomes first person to speak publicly about abuse by a priest. Madden says the Church paid him €35,000 to keep quiet about three years of assaults by Fr Ivan Payne. Archbishop Desmond Connell denies the deal until Madden provides documentary proof of church payoff. Case spurs hundreds to pursue civil lawsuits against church authorities.

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184828/Revealed-decades-ritual-child-abuse-Catholic-schools-orphanages-damned-report.html#ixzz0NMuzQ8SU

Archbishop Connell is now a Cardinal - after lying, outright lying, about paying off a victim of his priests abuse. As a Cardinal he has also come under a huge amount of criticism by Irish survivers of child abuse by obstructing the commission at every turn, refusing access to documents and so on.

independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-pope-is-right–all-that-matters-is-finding-truth-1282450.html

How, how, how can that be possible? How can someone who lies about abuse, covers it up, pays a victim off, then lies about paying them off, end up as a Cardinal in the church God has promised hell will not prevail against.

Is there something profoundly corrupted in the church hierarchy?

The problem is the system is deeply flawed.

The western church has changed it’s ecclesiology, it lacks transparency and there is no local check on the church’s appointments.

One would note that the early church did indeed have bishops, like Irenaus of Lyons, Augustine of Hippo, Eusebius of Caesarea etc. Thousands of men.

But these men were chosen by the local synods and ordained and consecrated for life by three local neighboring bishops who approved. The aforementioned were not nominated, nor selected, nor approved by the bishop of Rome (who today is still chosen by the “local synod”, albeit in a modified form through the college of ‘cardinals’ who were originally all real clerics of the diocese of Rome). They were not moved from city to city by the bishop of Rome and the bishop of Rome could not prevent them from serving.

 

[Hesychios]

This is a prime example of what I just cannot get my head around in God’s true church:

Former altar boy Andrew Madden becomes first person to speak publicly about abuse by a priest. Madden says the Church paid him €35,000 to keep quiet about three years of assaults by Fr Ivan Payne. Archbishop Desmond Connell denies the deal until Madden provides documentary proof of church payoff. Case spurs hundreds to pursue civil lawsuits against church authorities.

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184828/Revealed-decades-ritual-child-abuse-Catholic-schools-orphanages-damned-report.html#ixzz0NMuzQ8SU

Archbishop Connell is now a Cardinal - after lying, outright lying, about paying off a victim of his priests abuse. As a Cardinal he has also come under a huge amount of criticism by Irish survivers of child abuse by obstructing the commission at every turn, refusing access to documents and so on.

independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-pope-is-right–all-that-matters-is-finding-truth-1282450.html

How, how, how can that be possible? How can someone who lies about abuse, covers it up, pays a victim off, then lies about paying them off, end up as a Cardinal in the church God has promised hell will not prevail against.

Is there something profoundly corrupted in the church hierarchy?

The problem is the system is deeply flawed.

The western church has changed it’s ecclesiology, it lacks transparency and there is no local check on the church’s appointments.

One would note that the early church did indeed have bishops, like Irenaeus of Lyons, Augustine of Hippo, Eusebius of Caesarea etc. Thousands of men.

But these men were chosen by the local synods and ordained and consecrated for life by three local neighboring bishops who approved of the selection. The aforementioned were not nominated, nor selected, nor approved by the bishop of Rome (who today is still chosen by the “local synod”, albeit in a modified form through the college of ‘cardinals’ who were originally all real clerics of the diocese of Rome). They were not moved from city to city by the bishop of Rome and the bishop of Rome could not prevent them from serving.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m interested in your responses to the following that I have been thinking about a lot over the past few days:

On the basis that the catholic church is the one true catholic and apostolic church founded by Christ, and protected by the Holy Spirit, how could the abuses of the past decades have happened?

There is now no dispute by the church itself that the abuse of vulnerable children and adults, perpetrated by nuns, brothers, priests, and covered up by bishops and cardinals, took place and was badly dealt with.

I dont really want to get into the abuse per sae, rather I’m more interested in the roles of the main players and the role of the Holy Spirit within the church.

If as is claimed, the bishops are the direct successors to Peter, to whom the keys were given, how could they possibly have allowed this to happen?

Where was the Holy Spirit when these men and women were carrying out their evil deeds.

I am really really struggling with the idea of joining a church where a religious could emotionally, psychologically, physically or sexually abuse a child, and then receive Christ Himself in the Eucharist maybe one hour later? Or start their day with the Eucharist and go on to sexually abuse a vulnerable child in the afternoon.

I know in every big organisation, there will be bad apples. Thats a given. But for it to be so widespread and to reach to the highest levels within the church, I cant understand. Especially when those doing the abusing and covering up the abusing are direct successors to Peter.

Im also sure abuse is not confined to the catholic church alone.

But why the catholic church Im asking when the Holy Spirit has promised to keep it true and protect it from the gates of hell? How much closer to the gates of hell does it get when a child is abused?

I dont really want to hear anti-catholics venting their spleen on the church - Im more interested to know if you are a catholic how you have reconcilled these things. At the moment I cant. Not because the abuse happened, but more because of who is was that was abusing and how they were protected by the church.

What does it all mean for the integrity of the preisthood and religous, the power of the mass and the Eucharist, and the claim the church is Christ’s church?

I’m not sure I really understand what you’re asking. Is this basically a variation on the old “If God is good and all-powerful, why do bad things happen?” question?

(Or I guess another variation could be, if Christianity is right, why do so many Christians (of all stripes) do so many bad things?)

 

[Peter_J]

Archbishop Connell is now a Cardinal - after lying, outright lying, about paying off a victim of his priests abuse. As a Cardinal he has also come under a huge amount of criticism by Irish survivers of child abuse by obstructing the commission at every turn, refusing access to documents and so on.

independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-pope-is-right–all-that-matters-is-finding-truth-1282450.html

How, how, how can that be possible? How can someone who lies about abuse, covers it up, pays a victim off, then lies about paying them off, end up as a Cardinal in the church God has promised hell will not prevail against.

I think you’re giving us way too much credit. Yes, it’s true that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be bad hierarchs.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5528435#post5528435

 

[Peter_J]

This issue of the gates of hell not prevailing is one that interests me because it is clear (IMO) that the devil is active in our world. He may not prevail in the long run but he certainly makes his presence known and creates a lot of trouble.

Well said.

 

[twhite]

Guyonthestreet, you have some great questions and have gotten some great answers.

Just remember Judas:

How did Judas become an Apostle of Christ? How could Jesus let someone that, as God, He knew would betray Him? The fact is, every single person on this earth has free will, and every person is a sinner. Sadly, that means that people choose to do horrible things every day. Jesus had Judas as one of the Twelve Apostles, and there are many Judases in the Church today.

Jesus was betrayed by a kiss from his friend as are so many abuse victims. They thought the priest was their friend.

You’re dealing with the sins of individual men. While bishops are part of the teaching authority of the church, they are also men - and sinners. It’s all just sin. You’ll find it in any church.

Peace.

 

[Sellers1]

I’m interested in your responses to the following that I have been thinking about a lot over the past few days:

On the basis that the catholic church is the one true catholic and apostolic church founded by Christ, and protected by the Holy Spirit, how could the abuses of the past decades have happened?

There is now no dispute by the church itself that the abuse of vulnerable children and adults, perpetrated by nuns, brothers, priests, and covered up by bishops and cardinals, took place and was badly dealt with.

I dont really want to get into the abuse per sae, rather I’m more interested in the roles of the main players and the role of the Holy Spirit within the church.

If as is claimed, the bishops are the direct successors to Peter, to whom the keys were given, how could they possibly have allowed this to happen?

Where was the Holy Spirit when these men and women were carrying out their evil deeds.

I am really really struggling with the idea of joining a church where a religious could emotionally, psychologically, physically or sexually abuse a child, and then receive Christ Himself in the Eucharist maybe one hour later? Or start their day with the Eucharist and go on to sexually abuse a vulnerable child in the afternoon.

I know in every big organisation, there will be bad apples. Thats a given. But for it to be so widespread and to reach to the highest levels within the church, I cant understand. Especially when those doing the abusing and covering up the abusing are direct successors to Peter.

Im also sure abuse is not confined to the catholic church alone.

But why the catholic church Im asking when the Holy Spirit has promised to keep it true and protect it from the gates of hell? How much closer to the gates of hell does it get when a child is abused?

I dont really want to hear anti-catholics venting their spleen on the church - Im more interested to know if you are a catholic how you have reconcilled these things. At the moment I cant. Not because the abuse happened, but more because of who is was that was abusing and how they were protected by the church.

What does it all mean for the integrity of the preisthood and religous, the power of the mass and the Eucharist, and the claim the church is Christ’s church?

I do not believe that something this evil and of this magnitude could or would ever happen in the real presence of God in his Church. Maybe anywhere and everwhere else, but NOT in his one true Church. This is one reason I am an EX-cradle Catholic.

 

[Victorious]

I do not believe that something this evil and of this magnitude could or would ever happen in the real presence of God in his Church. Maybe anywhere and everwhere else, but NOT in his one true Church. This is one reason I am an EX-cradle Catholic.

Then why aren’t you an ex-believer in Jesus Christ altogether? Because the greatest sin ever committed was committed by one of His own hand-picked Apostles.

 

[Peter_J]

I do not believe that something this evil and of this magnitude could or would ever happen in the real presence of God in his Church. Maybe anywhere and everwhere else, but NOT in his one true Church. This is one reason I am an EX-cradle Catholic.

Hi Sellers1,

Let me say first that I can understand your being upset. Having said that I’m curious what you believe now, e.g. do you subscribe to some form of “Branch Theory”?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Sellers1,

Let me say first that I can understand your being upset. Having said that I’m curious what you believe now, e.g. do you subscribe to some form of “Branch Theory”?

Peter,

By “branch theory” you mean that Catholicism is broken into Roman, Orthodox, and Anglican communions? That’s the context in which I usually hear “branch theory” mentioned…

 

[Peter_J]

Peter,

By “branch theory” you mean that Catholicism is broken into Roman, Orthodox, and Anglican communions? That’s the context in which I usually hear “branch theory” mentioned…

Yes, that’s the usual meaning of “branch theory” … although I also figure that there are Protestants who have the same basic idea but with a different list of “branches”, and might still be called “branch theorists” in some sense.

 

[1edyson]

this is the best way I’ve ever heard it put simply.

The Church is not a museum of Saints, but a Hospital for Sinners.

 

[SSTeacher]

This is a prime example of what I just cannot get my head around in God’s true church:

Former altar boy Andrew Madden becomes first person to speak publicly about abuse by a priest. Madden says the Church paid him €35,000 to keep quiet about three years of assaults by Fr Ivan Payne. Archbishop Desmond Connell denies the deal until Madden provides documentary proof of church payoff. Case spurs hundreds to pursue civil lawsuits against church authorities.

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184828/Revealed-decades-ritual-child-abuse-Catholic-schools-orphanages-damned-report.html#ixzz0NMuzQ8SU

Archbishop Connell is now a Cardinal - after lying, outright lying, about paying off a victim of his priests abuse. As a Cardinal he has also come under a huge amount of criticism by Irish survivers of child abuse by obstructing the commission at every turn, refusing access to documents and so on.

independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-pope-is-right–all-that-matters-is-finding-truth-1282450.html

How, how, how can that be possible? How can someone who lies about abuse, covers it up, pays a victim off, then lies about paying them off, end up as a Cardinal in the church God has promised hell will not prevail against.

Is there something profoundly corrupted in the church hierarchy?

It is indeed very difficult. However, as you pray and reflect it might be worth pondering whether or not you’re looking at this difficulty in perspective. Perhaps a reasonable starting point for such a brown study would be the question,

What exactly was I expecting the Church that Christ founded to look like?

Consider, if you will, the parables of Jesus. The parables provide a vision of life in God’s kingdom. And anyone who hears the parable is invited to make a decision about the kingdom – and the King. Jesus used His parables to sow spiritual seed. His teaching had a long–term purpose: to sow seed into people’s lives that would later grow and bear fruit. Seeds take time to grow. Every seeker of truth knows this. It’s gradual because it’s a process of discovery. And I think that it’s invariably a struggle. And in the spiritual battle you can be sure that the Evil One will not be idle. Satan will try to sow seeds of doubt in your mind. But remember that Jesus was the Master–Teacher. He didn’t expect His followers to grasp everything He was saying all at one go. He allowed for a delayed or gradual understanding. People have to think things through in order to understand them – that’s the way we’re made. Jesus planted seeds in people’s minds that would grow and eventually bear fruit. That’s why His parables are so delightfully comforting and helpful to seekers.

The parables begin at Matthew 13. I gently urge you to read that chapter and perhaps reflect for some time upon the second parable that Jesus told and the subsequent explanation He gave when His disciples asked Him what it meant. It’s the parable traditionally referred to as the parable of the wheat and the tares but which in these latter days is more likely to be called the parable of the weeds in the field. Perhaps you recall it?

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner’s servants came to him and said, “Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?” “An enemy did this,” he replied. The servants asked him, “Do you want us to go and pull them up?” “'No,” he answered. “Because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: first collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

And the subsequent explanation Jesus gave was this.

The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Once one reads this parable and accepts the explanation given by our Savior the seeds of doubt perhaps start to blow away. It is quite natural, I think, to expect clergymen to be holier than, say, the average sinner (however that hypothetical person might think and behave) but I submit that if we are to be realistic then it’s probably not a particularly good idea to expect such a vision to be anything more than a pious theory.

One of the claims of the Catholic Church is holiness – One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. There’s no doubt that plenty of sinners can be found inside the Church. But aren’t there plenty of sinners outside of the Church as well? Indeed there are. In fact, sinners proliferate this planet. So is it logical to conclude that the actions or inactions of Catholics who commit sins ought to be taken as representative of Catholicism when sinners are typically found in every area of human endeavor?

I guess not. The sinners are simply the weeds among the wheat and God isn’t going to uproot them until the end even after taking into account that it makes the whole exercise more difficult for all of us. There aren’t so many holy people outside of the Church, though, are there? Sin is easy to explain. It’s the central problem of the human race and it’s why we need a Savior. But how do we explain the holy people?

I encourage you to continue with your inquiries into the truth claims of the Catholic Church. If you haven’t already done so you might perhaps consider reading some of the lives of saints?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[NoWings]

Our Priests are under attack by the devil.

The majority of abuse cases were homosexual.

Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing.

 

[josie_L]

Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing.

No he’s not saying they are one and the same, but the majority of cases were of priests who abused male minors.