Gates of Hell, One True Catholic Apostolic Church, and the abuse question.

[SSTeacher]

That is an awesome post SSTeacher. Awesome.

You are very gracious. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Mick

 

[josie_L]

In order to get an insight I guess one would have to put oneself in the position of one of those abused women and consider her options. It seems to me that they are very few. I’d like to give this representative woman a name: Mary. I think it’s reasonable to assume that Mary is not a confident, educated, purposeful, ambitious, well–connected career woman like the learned professor. Mary is more likely to be unlettered, overwhelmed, frightened, perhaps from a broken home, without friends, almost certainly without means or resources and probably feels completely rejected and worthless. Consider what the word “faith” would mean to Mary. She may have grasped some rudiments of Church teaching and may even have briefly experienced a little love in her life. Then, again, she may not. Mary probably knows that she’s supposed to go to Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation because if she doesn’t she’ll have committed a mortal sin in the eyes of the Church and that she’s also supposed to say the rosary, give up something or other during Lent, and fulfill her Easter duties. I suggest that this would possibly be the full extent of her Catholic faith. And if after Mary has been shamefully abused and tortured she continues with this routine she can be described as “remaining devout.” I’m not trying to portray this as learned behavior – although it may well be – I’m suggesting that Mary has probably always performed her familiar routine in isolated silence. So, what reason does she have to change it? Indeed, it’s possible Mary has been scorned and treated cruelly all her life and therefore the loveless viciousness she experienced at the hands of her Catholic predators would have seemed to her to be part of the settled order of suffering to which she has become so wearily and despairingly accustomed. It seems to me that Mary doesn’t necessarily know something that you don’t. You are on the outside looking for meaning. Mary was on the inside living a life that had no meaning so she did the best she could and compartmentalized. May the Lord have mercy upon those depraved and corrupt religionists who are responsible for causing such pain and suffering to their fellow human beings.

God bless you.

Sincerely,
Mick

SS teacher although the above scenario is very possible and true for some it does not mean that all who were abused did so because they were conditioned to continue in the faith. It might very well be that despite the evils they endured the truth of Christ healed them of bitterness/hatred. I’ve heard of stories wherein forgiveness has healed the wounds of many abused for their perpetrators or that families of loved ones brutally killed reconciled with the murderer (think of Saint Maria Goretti who was killed by her neighbor and yet even while she was dying was praying for his soul). This neighbor eventually got out of jail due to his remarkable transformation and befriended the mother of the young saint (both she and he stood together when Maria Gorretti was canonized). People who endure much evil if God is working through them will find healing in forgiveness. God bless.

 

[Tanner9188]

Let’s try this one on for size:

On the basis that the Catholic Church is the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ, and protected by the Holy Spirit, how could Judas Iscariot, hand-picked by Jesus Christ to be one of His Apostles – the forebears of all Catholic priests and bishops – have betrayed his Lord?

He was the son of perdition; picked by God to carry out the betrayal. Paul made the claim to be the chief of all sinners…do you read your Bible?

Nobody ever sinned worse than Judas Iscariot, not only because of the Person against Whom he sinned, but also because he then gave himself over to despair. (There wasn’t much difference between his sin and the sin of Peter, except that Peter repented afterward.) Yet the divine and omniscient Jesus, Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, personally chose him as an Apostle. Should this do violence to the fact that Jesus is God?

You are 100% correct about Peter, but God had determined before the foundation of the world that Peter was going to lead the rest of the apostles to get the church moving; then super Paul came into apostleship; to minister to Jews and the gentiles and probably had more effect than all the others combined based on what has been revealed from Scripture.

Personally, I think one of the reasons Jesus permitted the evil of one of His own Apostles betraying Him was to remove the sins of high-ranking persons within the Church as an excuse for Catholics to leave the Church, or to disbelieve that she is the True Church.

]Try reading the Bible; the answer is there friend.

 

[Tanner9188]

I’m interested in your responses to the following that I have been thinking about a lot over the past few days:

On the basis that the catholic church is the one true catholic and apostolic church founded by Christ, and protected by the Holy Spirit, how could the abuses of the past decades have happened?

There is now no dispute by the church itself that the abuse of vulnerable children and adults, perpetrated by nuns, brothers, priests, and covered up by bishops and cardinals, took place and was badly dealt with.

I dont really want to get into the abuse per sae, rather I’m more interested in the roles of the main players and the role of the Holy Spirit within the church.

If as is claimed, the bishops are the direct successors to Peter, to whom the keys were given, how could they possibly have allowed this to happen?

Where was the Holy Spirit when these men and women were carrying out their evil deeds.

I am really really struggling with the idea of joining a church where a religious could emotionally, psychologically, physically or sexually abuse a child, and then receive Christ Himself in the Eucharist maybe one hour later? Or start their day with the Eucharist and go on to sexually abuse a vulnerable child in the afternoon.

I know in every big organisation, there will be bad apples. Thats a given. But for it to be so widespread and to reach to the highest levels within the church, I cant understand. Especially when those doing the abusing and covering up the abusing are direct successors to Peter.

Im also sure abuse is not confined to the catholic church alone.

But why the catholic church Im asking when the Holy Spirit has promised to keep it true and protect it from the gates of hell? How much closer to the gates of hell does it get when a child is abused?

I dont really want to hear anti-catholics venting their spleen on the church - Im more interested to know if you are a catholic how you have reconcilled these things. At the moment I cant. Not because the abuse happened, but more because of who is was that was abusing and how they were protected by the church.

What does it all mean for the integrity of the preisthood and religous, the power of the mass and the Eucharist, and the claim the church is Christ’s church?

**Evil men do evil things; the Holy Spirit does not guide an institution per se, but in the life of true disciples; one at a time as they are called according to His purpose.

Proof that these people are not successors of Peter nor are guided by the Holy Spirit. There is not Primacy of Peter, that is an allusion brought upon the Catholic people and has zero Scriptural basis. It is Jesus who has and will always build His church using godly people with gifts given by the Holy Spirit to accomplish the goal. It is the message that saves, not the messengers; something overlooked by most Catholics IMO because of the fixation on Peter.

The abuses and cover ups are nothing new for this organization; it has a lifetime history of murder, abuse, corruption and etc. This is why churches are suppose to be at a local accountability level on earth with the ultimate accountability overseen by Jesus Himself (Revelation chapters 2 & 3); but when you put corrupt men in His place that usurp the authority of the Trinity, then the results are very predictable. There are many more abuses and other forms of corruption we don’t even know about because what is reported and found out; generally is tip of the iceberg in most cases.

You said: “I don’t really want to hear anti-catholics venting their spleen on the church”
Hope fully you do not refer the the Catholic people, but rather the sentiment of “anti-Catholic” doctrine; particularly on the issue of salvation. It would be a sin and proof of an unregenerate person to not see the Catholic as a neighbors.

Always remember that Light has come into the world to expose the darkness of men.

God bless and may He bring His peace upon you especially in light of the realities we have seen over the centuries.

To those of you that feel this is too harsh; I apologize to you. You must seek truth and understand the reality of what is and be faithful to the Scripture in all things of faith and practice.**

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5544034:

In order to get an insight I guess one would have to put oneself in the position of one of those abused women and consider her options. It seems to me that they are very few. I’d like to give this representative woman a name: Mary. I think it’s reasonable to assume that Mary is not a confident, educated, purposeful, ambitious, well–connected career woman like the learned professor. Mary is more likely to be unlettered, overwhelmed, frightened, perhaps from a broken home, without friends, almost certainly without means or resources and probably feels completely rejected and worthless. Consider what the word “faith” would mean to Mary. She may have grasped some rudiments of Church teaching and may even have briefly experienced a little love in her life. Then, again, she may not. Mary probably knows that she’s supposed to go to Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation because if she doesn’t she’ll have committed a mortal sin in the eyes of the Church and that she’s also supposed to say the rosary, give up something or other during Lent, and fulfill her Easter duties. I suggest that this would possibly be the full extent of her Catholic faith. And if after Mary has been shamefully abused and tortured she continues with this routine she can be described as “remaining devout.” I’m not trying to portray this as learned behavior – although it may well be – I’m suggesting that Mary has probably always performed her familiar routine in isolated silence. So, what reason does she have to change it? Indeed, it’s possible Mary has been scorned and treated cruelly all her life and therefore the loveless viciousness she experienced at the hands of her Catholic predators would have seemed to her to be part of the settled order of suffering to which she has become so wearily and despairingly accustomed. It seems to me that Mary doesn’t necessarily know something that you don’t. You are on the outside looking for meaning. Mary was on the inside living a life that had no meaning so she did the best she could and compartmentalized. May the Lord have mercy upon those depraved and corrupt religionists who are responsible for causing such pain and suffering to their fellow human beings.

God bless you.

Sincerely,
Mick

SS teacher although the above scenario is very possible and true for some it does not mean that all who were abused did so because they were conditioned to continue in the faith. It might very well be that despite the evils they endured the truth of Christ healed them of bitterness/hatred. I’ve heard of stories wherein forgiveness has healed the wounds of many abused for their perpetrators or that families of loved ones brutally killed reconciled with the murderer (think of Saint Maria Goretti who was killed by her neighbor and yet even while she was dying was praying for his soul). This neighbor eventually got out of jail due to his remarkable transformation and befriended the mother of the young saint (both she and he stood together when Maria Gorretti was canonized). People who endure much evil if God is working through them will find healing in forgiveness. God bless.

I’m not proposing that the imaginary insight above is to be interpreted as “one size fits all” but I will go so far as to suggest that the idea of not being able to identify herself as a Catholic would have caused Mary great consternation and anxiety simply because such a label was the only way she could satisfy whatever notions she might have had about the goodness of God. Whatever faith she had stands in contrast to, rather than endorses, her Catholic experience.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Victorious]

He was the son of perdition; picked by God to carry out the betrayal. Paul made the claim to be the chief of all sinners…do you read your Bible?

So in other words, God is the author of Judas’ sin. Talk to the hand, pal.

 

[josie_L]

I’m not proposing that the imaginary insight above is to be interpreted as “one size fits all” but I will go so far as to suggest that the idea of not being able to identify herself as a Catholic would have caused Mary great consternation and anxiety simply because such a label was the only way she could satisfy whatever notions she might have had about the goodness of God. Whatever faith she had stands in contrast to, rather than endorses, her Catholic experience.

Cordially,
Mick

Even if her experience with the Catholic Church had been a negative one the graces for which the eucharist and other such sacraments, along with the idea of redemptive suffering and prayers would not necessarily demolish her Catholic faith. The truth of the faith is one thing and the experience another (although not mutually exclusive they are not one and the same). A person who suffered at the hands of church members as she did can still have a love for the Catholic faith. God bless.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5546577:

I’m not proposing that the imaginary insight above is to be interpreted as “one size fits all” but I will go so far as to suggest that the idea of not being able to identify herself as a Catholic would have caused Mary great consternation and anxiety simply because such a label was the only way she could satisfy whatever notions she might have had about the goodness of God. Whatever faith she had stands in contrast to, rather than endorses, her Catholic experience.

Cordially,
Mick

Even if her experience with the Catholic Church had been a negative one the graces for which the Eucharist and other such sacraments, along with the idea of redemptive suffering and prayers would not necessarily demolish her Catholic faith. The truth of the faith is one thing and the experience another (although not mutually exclusive they are not one and the same). A person who suffered at the hands of church members as she did can still have a love for the Catholic faith. God bless.

If you say so.

Accommodatingly,
Mick

 

[Tanner9188]

So in other words, God is the author of Judas’ sin. Talk to the hand, pal.

**You don’t read your Bible; what a shame, there you will find salvation.
John 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and *not one of them perished but the son of perdition, *so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. **

John 13:16-19 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, `HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’ (Psalm 41:9) "From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

John 6 64-65 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Beginning = “archē” = beginning, origin Same term used in Mark 10:6 "“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.” **
**
That “talk to the hand pal”; was that very Christian of you? Out of the mouth speaks the heart…right? Please read your Bible; for that is where you find eternal life in the Lord Jesus.

God bless you and may He move you to read and study the Scripture.

 

[SimonArizona]

**You don’t read your Bible; what a shame, there you will find salvation.
** Salvation is found in the Truth of Jesus Christ. Is the Bible the pillar and foundation of the Truth? if not what is our Pillar and Foundation of the Truth where our salvation is found?
can you answer?

 

[Victorious]

**You don’t read your Bible; what a shame, there you will find salvation.
John 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and *not one of them perished but the son of perdition, ***so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 13:16-19 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, `HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’ (Psalm 41:9) "From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

John 6 64-65 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Beginning = “archē” = beginning, origin Same term used in Mark 10:6 ""But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."
**
That “talk to the hand pal”; was that very Christian of you? Out of the mouth speaks the heart…right? Please read your Bible; for that is where you find eternal life in the Lord Jesus.**

God bless you and may He move you to read and study the Scripture.

You said God made Judas betray Jesus. Go spread your blasphemy someplace else.

 

[Tanner9188]

Salvation is found in the Truth of Jesus Christ. Is the Bible the pillar and foundation of the Truth? if not what is our Pillar and Foundation of the Truth where our salvation is found?
can you answer?

**Where is the salvation, which is in Christ Jesus written? You should also read and study your Bible; for there you will the Truth concerning salvation.

What is the Truth of Jesus Christ; since you brought it up?**

 

[SimonArizona]

You should also read and study your Bible; for there you will the Truth concerning salvation.

i agree with you twice here. You did not answer my question. Is the Scripture the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth?

if so, how can it be? or rather, whose interpretation of the bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

But i submit that the pillar and foundation for the truth is something greater than the written scriptures, and the bible agrees with me.

any guesses bible man?

 

[Tanner9188]

You said God made Judas betray Jesus. Go spread your blasphemy someplace else.

Tanner9188:

Originally Posted by Tanner9188 View Post
He was the son of perdition; picked by God to carry out the betrayal. Paul made the claim to be the chief of all sinners…do you read your Bible?

**I said God picked Judas to carry out the betrayal; I did not say God made Judas do it. The betrayal was predestined; Judas fit the bill.

So, if God did not chose Judas as the “son of perdition”; then who did?

Understand, Judas’ part was not apart from his own will. Even though God ordained that Judas would be the one of the Twelve who would betray Christ, it was not apart from the desire of Judas. Judas Iscariot, then, was the chosen instrument of God, not apart from his own will, to betray Christ and bring about His death. This wretched man‑‑evil as he was, by his own desire‑‑was designed into God’s plan.

No man will freely chose God unless the Father first drawls the person to Jesus, but man will freely betray God; as we all have a sin nature that does not have the capacity to chose the Light; for men love darkness.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.”

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few {are} chosen.” **

 

[Tanner9188]

i agree with you twice here. You did not answer my question. Is the Scripture the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth?

if so, how can it be? or rather, whose interpretation of the bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

But i submit that the pillar and foundation for the truth is something greater than the written scriptures, and the bible agrees with me.

any guesses bible man?

**
1** Timothy 3:14-16 "I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, {I write} so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.** By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory. "

“support” = hedraiōma; a stay, prop, support
This is the word, hedraiōma, used only once in the NT and it is in 1 Timothy 3:15 (see Above)
“foundation” which you used out of the context of the Scripture to support a position that does not exist in the Bible. this is the term used in this passage.

Foundation as you tried to impose on Scripture is the Greek term “themelios”, which means

1. laid down as a foundation, the foundation (of a building, wall, city)
2. metaph. the foundations, beginnings, first principals
   a. of institution or system of truth
   1 Timothy 6:19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

Ephesians 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Pillar and support of the truth is the support of the gospel or the Truth.
Examples of where and how “foundation”, themelios, is used in Scripture.(SEE ABOVE)**

 

[Tanner9188]

i agree with you twice here. You did not answer my question. Is the Scripture the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth?

if so, how can it be? or rather, whose interpretation of the bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

But i submit that the pillar and foundation for the truth is something greater than the written scriptures, and the bible agrees with me.

any guesses bible man?

**
I do not need to guess; I actually read and study the Bible and it is the Spirit of God that reveals the truth to the individual believer; just as it was written and stated by Jesus concerning Peter and ALL the disciples. Since the word “you” is an indefinite pronoun; it can refer to both an individual or a group of individuals and Jesus is clearly teaching and speaking to all the individuals, not just Peter…including the “keys”.

The church, the Body of Christ, which is the individuals that support or protect the truth of the gospel. The word “foundation” is incorrect; do a word search on foundation, then on suppoet and you will see the NT uses two distinct terms for these words.

"He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal {this} to you (Magisterium), but My Father who is in heaven.”…Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

“1 Corinthians 2 :Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden {wisdom} which God predestined before the ages to our glory;…For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God…Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised…But we have the mind of Christ.”

John 14 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things,

John 15 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.”

John 16 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment…”

I do not want to overwhelm you because Scripture has a lot more to say about the work of the Holy Spirit.**

If you are too lazy to read and study the Scripture and rely on the Magisterium to interpret for you; as opposed to the Holy Spirit, then you prove yourself to be spiritually appraised IMO. You do not trust in the promise of God IMO.

 

[josie_L]

**
I do not need to guess; I actually read and study the Bible and it is the Spirit of God that reveals the truth to the individual believer; just as it was written and stated by Jesus concerning Peter and ALL the disciples. Since the word “you” is an indefinite pronoun; it can refer to both an individual or a group of individuals and Jesus is clearly teaching and speaking to all the individuals, not just Peter…including the “keys”.

The church, the Body of Christ, which is the individuals that support or protect the truth of the gospel. The word “foundation” is incorrect; do a word search on foundation, then on suppoet and you will see the NT uses two distinct terms for these words.

"He said to them*, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal {this} to you (Magisterium), but My Father who is in heaven.”…Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

“1 Corinthians 2 :Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden {wisdom} which God predestined before the ages to our glory;…For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God…Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised…But we have the mind of Christ.”

John 14 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things,

John 15 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.”

John 16 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment…”

I do not want to overwhelm you because Scripture has a lot more to say about the work of the Holy Spirit.

If you are too lazy to read and study the Scripture and rely on the Magisterium to interpret for you; as opposed to the Holy Spirit, then you prove yourself to be spiritually appraised IMO. You do not trust in the promise of God IMO.

Actually, it is you who do not trust in the promise of Jesus when he left his Church to be the pillar and foundation of truth, i.e., the authority in interpreting scripture. Furthermore, if the Holy Spirit guides us individually in understanding scripture then it is no longer the Bible which is the infallible authority but the person who does the interpreting. And lastly, the scriptures above were directed to the apostles who had the authority to teach and interpret scripture (and their successors make up the magisterium).

 

[buffalo]

No he’s not saying they are one and the same, but the majority of cases were of priests who abused male minors.

The majority of cases were adult males on post-pubescent males. Either pederasty or ephebophilia .

 

[Tanner9188]

**Hi everyone;

I have nothing else to add; so I’m out of here. If someone has an additional question or comment they want me to read, then send a PM with the link.

God bless - Tanner**

 

[rev_kevin]

Well I’m going to go out on a limb once again. I just had this discussion on another treand and was slamed by one Dr. because I told the truth.
Here is goes again, I am a former Catholic who went to Catholis school in the 60’s and 70’s. This is what happened. The nuns who were teachers would, yank on my ears, smack my hand because I was left handed, slaped me in the face if I did not do what the nun told me to do, was put in the closit for wrong answers, the principal would take a child who misbehaved and would pull his pants down in her office infront of other children and spank him with a wooden paddle, this happened for the 8 years I attended the school and because of this and other reasons I stoped going to church all together. Then in 2000 I moved back home and enrolled my 5 year old son in the same school,thinking times have changed in the past 30 plus years, but I was wrong, My son had to go to the bathroom and saked the teacher if he could go, she told him no, so after a while he could not hold it anylonger and wet himself and stayed like that for the whole day. When me and my wife found out by our son we did not heaitate to take him out of that school and he never went back. Now on the other treand I was told that I’m looking for pitty, and in so many words it happened everywere because it was that era. I was told to stop blaiming the catholic for the way society was and that I was a lier. So denial still goes on with some Catholics not all but some. I was told that is not a good enough reason to leave the church and stop blaiming my problems on the church. I was told by one person that the Pope todl the Bishops to forge government documents because the U.S. was not letting jews in so they were told to put on the documents that they were catholic.
See Former Cahtolics page 19 post 285
In so many words I was told to stop winning and get over it. They also made not real nice comments about my church. So like I said it still goes on with some catholics who can’t accept the truth.