"Gates of hell prevail" over EDS (Early Day Saints)

[Steven_Merten]

I have an LDS friend who told me how Jews, Marooni or some name like that, came to the Americas in 200 BC. According to my friend, they believe that Jesus came and started the Mormon church in this Jewish community in America soon after His death and ressurection. Then the EDS (Early Day Saints) Mormons all became evil and the church, they claim to be Christ’s church, died out for 1800 years until Joseph Smith.

Jesus assures us that the “gates of hell” will not prevail over His Church. Do the Mormon’s agree that their church is not Christ’s Church otherwise the gates of hell would not have prevailed over it for 1800 years? Why do they refer to their church as “of Jesus Christ”?

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Steven Merten:

I have an LDS friend who told me how Jews, Marooni or some name like that, came to the Americas in 200 BC. According to my friend, they believe that Jesus came and started the Mormon church in this Jewish community in America soon after His death and ressurection. Then the EDS (Early Day Saints) Mormons all became evil and the church, they claim to be Christ’s church, died out for 1800 years until Joseph Smith.

Jesus assures us that the “gates of hell” will not prevail over His Church. Do the Mormon’s agree that their church is not Christ’s Church otherwise the gates of hell would not have prevailed over it for 1800 years? Why do they refer to their church as “of Jesus Christ”?

Ask your friend for a copy of the Book Of Mormon, or go to any book store and buy a copy by Doubleday. You will get the true facts from the book. You have misunderstood your friend drastically. It was Lehi and his sons, and wives who came from Jerusalem,(don’t know if they were Jewish, Lehi may have been, but the wives may not have been) in about 600 BC and settled somewhere in the Yucatan or Central America. There were already other settlers in America from long before that, later they intermarried with other tribes. Jesus did appear soon after his death to the people on this hemisphere. When he returned to the apostles and they asked him where he had been. He said"know ye not that I have other sheep?" He loved all of his people equally, not just the people of the Middle Eastern countries. For the rest of the story read the Book.
We are called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, because Jesus set up His church in Biblical times with his name, because he was the head of the Church. When He restored the church in it’s original form through his prophet Joseph Smith in 1830 as it was before about 500AD, he added the Latter Day Saints to distinguish between the original and the present day restored Church.
Moroni was the son of Mormon, and the last man to write in the Book of Mormon. He was one of the last survivors of his tribe and wandered for many years, ending up in what would later be New York. Before his death, he buried the record of his people which was engraved on thin gold plates. When the Lord was ready for the church to be restored, he and his son appeared to Joseph Smith as an answer to his prayer. He was 14 and confused with all the religions, his own family was torn between religions. He came upon the passage in the bible “If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given.”
Both God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph, in a grove of trees near his home, and told him that he was not to join any of the churches, because they had all been corrupted by man, and though they contained many good things, none of them contained the whole, complete truth.
Then after a period of time Moroni appeared as an angel and gave Joseph the instructions he needed before showing him the hidden plates. Moroni is the golden angel atop all 120+ LDS Temples all over the world.

BJ

 

[iwonder]

BJ Colbert:

Ask your friend for a copy of the Book Of Mormon, or go to any book store and buy a copy by Doubleday. You will get the true facts from the book. You have misunderstood your friend drastically. It was Lehi and his sons, and wives who came from Jerusalem,(don’t know if they were Jewish, Lehi may have been, but the wives may not have been) in about 600 BC and settled somewhere in the Yucatan or Central America. There were already other settlers in America from long before that, later they intermarried with other tribes. Jesus did appear soon after his death to the people on this hemisphere. When he returned to the apostles and they asked him where he had been. He said"know ye not that I have other sheep?" He loved all of his people equally, not just the people of the Middle Eastern countries. For the rest of the story read the Book.
We are called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, because Jesus set up His church in Biblical times with his name, because he was the head of the Church. When He restored the church in it’s original form through his prophet Joseph Smith in 1830 as it was before about 500AD, he added the Latter Day Saints to distinguish between the original and the present day restored Church.
Moroni was the son of Mormon, and the last man to write in the Book of Mormon. He was one of the last survivors of his tribe and wandered for many years, ending up in what would later be New York. Before his death, he buried the record of his people which was engraved on thin gold plates. When the Lord was ready for the church to be restored, he and his son appeared to Joseph Smith as an answer to his prayer. He was 14 and confused with all the religions, his own family was torn between religions. He came upon the passage in the bible “If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given.”
Both God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph, in a grove of trees near his home, and told him that he was not to join any of the churches, because they had all been corrupted by man, and though they contained many good things, none of them contained the whole, complete truth.
Then after a period of time Moroni appeared as an angel and gave Joseph the instructions he needed before showing him the hidden plates. Moroni is the golden angel atop all 120+ LDS Temples all over the world.

BJ

So your response to this B.j. iff I understand it correctly is basically everything we know of American History and World History is wrong. Or else you are saying Jesus appeared to the Indians who were here in 500AD. And so Moroni the angel was really an aboriginal angel. And then after Jesus appeared to the Native American Indians after his death, he did not go to China or Siberia, or anywhere else and make the same announcement. Is that because he did not love the chinese, siberians, mongolians as much as he loved the Indians in America? Or did the LDS begin here in the states because Jesus is unconcerned with anyone else or what?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Some time back someone asked why Lehi and his people did not bring the concept of the wheel with them, or if they did why was it abandoned?

One would expect that any people would see an advantage in the wheel after the briefest exposure. Yet the wheel appears to have been completely unknown in the New world when the Spaniards arrived.

 

[alterserver_07]

Why would Christ lie though. He said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church and yet, to what you are saying, hell was prevailing against the church for 1300’o years. Sounds like a lier, but we all know he didn’t. He also said there will be many false prophets after me, and as we can see, he hasn’t lied yet. But if you say there was a apostacy for 1300 years, then Jesus is lying.

 

[TOmNossor]

The more I think about Matthew 16:18 the more I see it as a pro-LDS scripture. Here are the words of a Catholic Scholar.

Michael M. Winter, former lecturer in Fundamental Theology at St. John’s Seminary (Roman Catholic), in Saint Peter and the Popes, p. 17. states concerning Matthew 16:18

“although some writers have applied the idea of immortality to the survival of the church, it seems preferable to see it as a promise of triumph over evil.”

To “triumph” or to “prevail” is to win in the end. This is the path God has charted through the restoration. God is prevailing.

There are a number of more elaborate ways to discuss this passage (in which I see more and more pro-LDS ideas).

Just today I found a fourth meaning assigned to “the Rock” that I consider to be very interesting. LDS can embrace all 4 meanings (and all 4 meanings have been expressed by LDS leaders), but Catholics generally stick to one (after about the 4th century I think) and Protestants generally stick to the another. Each has good reasons for being espoused.

“Hell” or the Greek “Hades” / Hebrew “Sheol also introduce a number of interesting interpretation.

What I think is important is that even according to Catholic scholars Matthew 16:18 does not end the question of “was their an apostasy?” And while I fully support your prerogative to disagree with my opinion, my opinion is that Matthew 16:18 is more powerful for LDS than it is for Catholics. This is something that has changed in my mind over time, but it is something that makes sense to me now.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

iwonder:

So your response to this B.j. iff I understand it correctly is basically everything we know of American History and World History is wrong. Or else you are saying Jesus appeared to the Indians who were here in 500AD. And so Moroni the angel was really an aboriginal angel. And then after Jesus appeared to the Native American Indians after his death, he did not go to China or Siberia, or anywhere else and make the same announcement. Is that because he did not love the chinese, siberians, mongolians as much as he loved the Indians in America? Or did the LDS begin here in the states because Jesus is unconcerned with anyone else or what?

How on earth do you get this from BJ’s statement?
BJ just corrected an incorrect understanding of the BOM exhibited by the first poster.
And LDS do not have any authoritative position on where else Christ may have visited.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

alterserver_07:

Why would Christ lie though. He said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church and yet, to what you are saying, hell was prevailing against the church for 1300’o years. Sounds like a lier, but we all know he didn’t. He also said there will be many false prophets after me, and as we can see, he hasn’t lied yet. But if you say there was a apostacy for 1300 years, then Jesus is lying.

I do not see were anyone has suggested that Christ lied. I suggest that the Magisterium and the post 400AD Catholics who use Matthew 16:18 to show that the Catholic Church will continue are mistaken (I would not suggest they lie). When one leans upon an apostate authority to understand God’s word, one may be exposed to error. But, I think it is silly to suggest that LDS claim Christ lied.

Interestingly enough I present a Catholic scholar who agrees with me.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Joe Kelley:

Some time back someone asked why Lehi and his people did not bring the concept of the wheel with them, or if they did why was it abandoned?

One would expect that any people would see an advantage in the wheel after the briefest exposure. Yet the wheel appears to have been completely unknown in the New world when the Spaniards arrived.

There is most definitely evidence that Meso-Americans did in fact know of the wheel. Prevailing scholarship suggests that despite the fact that Meso-Americans did know about the wheel, they did not use it as we think they should have.

The question becomes why did the ancient Meso-American’s not use wheels as WE THINK THEY SHOULD?

OR

Why does it APPEAR that they did not use wheels as we think they should?

Charity, TOm

 

[Joe_Kelley]

TOmNossor:

There is most definitely evidence that Meso-Americans did in fact know of the wheel. Prevailing scholarship suggests that despite the fact that Meso-Americans did know about the wheel, they did not use it as we think they should have.

The question becomes why did the ancient Meso-American’s not use wheels as WE THINK THEY SHOULD?

OR

Why does it APPEAR that they did not use wheels as we think they should?

Charity, TOm

Any one have a theory as to why?

 

[iwonder]

TOmNossor:

How on earth do you get this from BJ’s statement?
BJ just corrected an incorrect understanding of the BOM exhibited by the first poster.
And LDS do not have any authoritative position on where else Christ may have visited.
Charity, TOm

BJ says Christ appeared after his death in this hemisphere. Now I would assume she meant in the states, or latin america, or canada, but not China or Australia. Or do you have another definition for hemisphere in the BOM that we know nothing of? And do you guys have anything to back this up other than Joseph Smith said so?

 

[TNT]

Posted by TOmNossor

When one leans upon an apostate authority

to understand God’s word, one may be exposed to error. But, I think it is silly to suggest that LDS claim Christ lied.

So, unless you are infallible in your opinions, then they COULD be in grevious error (even Apostate as you say). So, who should I believe…You or These Mormon folks.

 

[Steven_Merten]

iwonder:

So your response to this B.j. iff I understand it correctly is basically everything we know of American History and World History is wrong. Or else you are saying Jesus appeared to the Indians who were here in 500AD. And so Moroni the angel was really an aboriginal angel. And then after Jesus appeared to the Native American Indians after his death, he did not go to China or Siberia, or anywhere else and make the same announcement. Is that because he did not love the chinese, siberians, mongolians as much as he loved the Indians in America? Or did the LDS begin here in the states because Jesus is unconcerned with anyone else or what?

I agree with you iwonder. Why did Jesus love the American Indians more than the Chineese, siberians and mongolians? Why did He not appear to all the isolated nations of the world? Good point!

What is also funny to me is that Catholocism did do the job of baptizing billions of Christians right through the aledged 1800 year dormantcy of the Mormon church. Catholicism did bring Christ’s name to the whole world while the Mormon church was alledgedly sleeping. Was this not the Holy Spirit working in the world through the Catholic Church while the Mormon Church lay Holy Spirit defficient supposedly up untill Joseph Smith in the 1800s? Yet the Mormons believe the Catholics to have gone astray and became evil soon after Christ’s death. Was it the work of the devil that the Catholic Church brought billions of people to Jesus as the Mormons claim or was it the work of the Holy Spirit, through Christ’s true Church, that this was accomplished?

Jesus tells us that the false prophets will come toward the end of time and not at the begining of His Church’s existance.

NAB MAT 24:3What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the world?..
…False prophets will rise in great numbers to mislead many.
NAB MAT 12:22A possessed man who was brought to him was blind and mute. He cured the man so that he could speak and see. All in the crowd were astonished. “Might this not be David’s son?” they asked. When the Pharisees heard this, they charged, “This man can expel demons only with the help of Beelzebul, the prince of demons.”

**NAB MAT 12:31 **

"Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven;** but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. **​

 

[Casen]

Steven Merten said:
I agree with you iwonder. Why did Jesus love the American Indians more than the Chineese, siberians and mongolians? Why did He not appear to all the isolated nations of the world? Good point!

Jesus answered your question in the Book of Mormon:
*
1 AND verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.*
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 16:1 - 3)

 

[iwonder]

Casen:

Steven Merten said:
I agree with you iwonder. Why did Jesus love the American Indians more than the Chineese, siberians and mongolians? Why did He not appear to all the isolated nations of the world? Good point!

Jesus answered your question in the Book of Mormon:

1 AND verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 16:1 - 3)

Nonsense, Why would Jesus have to repeat in the Book of mormon what he already said in the New Testament? Was Joseph Smith hard of hearing, or could he not hear it on Sunday from any other Protestant Bible? There is nothing in what you just quoted that is new and cannot be found in any other New Testament. Except for number 2. So what’s the point of BOM?
So what are Catholics supposed to conclude here? That Joseph Smith, unable to make a living as a fraudulent divining rod treasure seeker, but still aviaricious, chose to start a Church. There is hardly anything new in that either. And being highly ambitious, required many wives. And probably at least a few of these wives came with property or money. And he became to believe his own statements as the truth. Nothing new in that either. And he found people willing to believe him. Nothing new in that either. And he got tarred and feathered and run out of town, shot at and persecuted because he made false claims about his own abilities and ripped people off. Nothing new about that. In fact, the only thing truthful I have found in anything the Mormons have said on this forum is that this religion is very old. Older than the hills.

 

[Casen]

iwonder,
You certainly said a mouthful. Were you making an argument or just typing whatever pops into your head?

 

[BJ_Colbert]

iwonder:

Nonsense, Why would Jesus have to repeat in the Book of mormon what he already said in the New Testament? Was Joseph Smith hard of hearing, or could he not hear it on Sunday from any other Protestant Bible? There is nothing in what you just quoted that is new and cannot be found in any other New Testament. Except for number 2. So what’s the point of BOM?
So what are Catholics supposed to conclude here? That Joseph Smith, unable to make a living as a fraudulent divining rod treasure seeker, but still aviaricious, chose to start a Church. There is hardly anything new in that either. And being highly ambitious, required many wives. And probably at least a few of these wives came with property or money. And he became to believe his own statements as the truth. Nothing new in that either. And he found people willing to believe him. Nothing new in that either. And he got tarred and feathered and run out of town, shot at and persecuted because he made false claims about his own abilities and ripped people off. Nothing new about that. In fact, the only thing truthful I have found in anything the Mormons have said on this forum is that this religion is very old. Older than the hills.

Actually, God was not repeating to Joseph Smith,(Joseph only translated it) God was telling the people in the New World at the same time as He was telling the people of the Old World what he wanted them to know. He wants all of his people to follow the same rules and since they don’t always obey, he reminds them over and over again. See how often he repeats things in the Bible? The people on the American Continent needed to hear from God, just as the people on the European Continent heard from him.
Did you read where they are excavating a village from around 600 BC near Merida, Yucatan, Mexico? Interesting…Huh.
Not nice to say the things you said above about Joseph, what anti-mormon site did you find those things on. I have not said anything near to maligning your faith as you have mine. I have read every word to my husband and he is appalled at your words and can not see what you are so outraged about. You are starting to make him question the Catholic faith, and that is really something because he is the most devout Catholic I know. What is your purpose with the hateful posting?
BJ

 

[LittleDeb]

So I am still trying to follow the LDS line of thinking on “will not prevail.” As was pointed out earlier prevail can have many meanings.

For the gates of hell to not prevail, someone on earth had to have authority. I cannot follow the LDS idea that the priesthood authority was removed for a time. If there is no authority on earth then the gates of hell have prevailed! That is, I’m guessing, what people meant when they said the LDS would have to believe Christ lied. Removal of the authority of The Christ would mean Hell has prevailed.

How can authority come and go? If it is of Jesus it is permanent. Apostolic succession means permanent authority from Jesus. Restoration means Jesus left?

 

[Imconfused]

Casen:

iwonder,
You certainly said a mouthful. Were you making an argument or just typing whatever pops into your head?

No, simply rejecting and renouncing heresy.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

TOmNossor:

To “triumph” or to “prevail” is to win in the end. This is the path God has charted through the restoration. God is prevailing.

I agree with deb on this one, (I cant remember if this has been talked about already), but taking on this view, what makes you think that the LDS church will not fail and another “true church” will come around?

In otherwords, in this view God would always be prevailing even if there were 1000 restorations every year.
bj:

The people on the American Continent needed to hear from God, just as the people on the European Continent heard from him.

If Im not mistaking there were parts of the NT when the Apostles were first going out to preach the Gospel, and they were expressly forbidden by the Holy Spirit from going into certain regions of the world.