O
Oblaidon
Guest
I recently had a discusion with someone and followed up with this email:
Here was his reply:
How do I respond?
- Status
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Really?
Verse 19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
That’s singular in the Greek and so it plainly means that those keys were given to Peter.
Look at the context of that verse, and then while they are getting ready to answer that tell them this.
They imply that the Catholic Church isn’t in the Bible, but even the name is there. Acts 9:31 ἡ μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ᾽ ὁλης της ιουδαιας και γαλιλαιας και σαμαρειας ειχεν ειρηνην οικοδομουμενη και πορευομενη τω φοβω του κυριου, και τη παρακλησει του ἁγιου πνευματος επληθυνοντο. “Ekklesia Kath olos”=Catholic Church (The church throughout all…the universal church).
This is gonna be fun… this person has really been fed a load.
Paul never mentions most of the other apostles and where they went…does that mean that history doesn’t count?
If Kephas didn’t go to Rome and get crucified upside down then why are his footless bones buried in Rome. Under the altar in the Basillica that bears his name?
This is idiotic. Our Lord started the church, and the celibacy discipline. Xavier’s contention that Priestly celibacy is unBiblical
Matthew 19:10-12 & 1st Corinthians 7:6-9. BTW, Jesus was celibate.
No? Really!?
Ask if their church meets in a building?This is just rhetorical hooey. Peter was Christian…and there are no pagan rituals in the Catholic Church.
This one sounds like someone who isn’t honest enough to do his own homework and so you’re probably wasting your time. Make your case and walk away. If they want the truth they know where to find us…
E
elvisman
Guest
You da man, Militant.Really?
Verse 19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
That’s singular in the Greek and so it plainly means that those keys were given to Peter.
Look at the context of that verse, and then while they are getting ready to answer that tell them this.
They imply that the Catholic Church isn’t in the Bible, but even the name is there. Acts 9:31 ἡ μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ᾽ ὁλης της ιουδαιας και γαλιλαιας και σαμαρειας ειχεν ειρηνην οικοδομουμενη και πορευομενη τω φοβω του κυριου, και τη παρακλησει του ἁγιου πνευματος επληθυνοντο. “Ekklesia Kath olos”=Catholic Church (The church throughout all…the universal church).This is gonna be fun… this person has really been fed a load.Paul never mentions most of the other apostles and where they went…does that mean that history doesn’t count?
If Kephas didn’t go to Rome and get crucified upside down then why are his footless bones buried in Rome. Under the altar in the Basillica that bears his name?This is idiotic. Our Lord started the church, and the celibacy discipline. Xavier’s contention that Priestly celibacy is unBiblical
Matthew 19:10-12 & 1st Corinthians 7:6-9. BTW, Jesus was celibate.No? Really!?
This one sounds like someone who isn’t honest enough to do his own homework and so you’re probably wasting your time. Make your case and walk away. If they want the truth they know where to find us…
Preach it, my brotha!
H
Holly3278
Guest
Church Militant, you are so good at apologetics! Great answer!
M
mdcpensive1
Guest
#1 - Church Militant is correct about Peter being in Rome. When they found his grave, other graves next to his had inscriptions saying they were buried next to Peter. Co-incidence??? Also, as God used the Assyrians to render judgement on Israel so He also uses the Roman Empire to allow the disciples to spread the Gospel Message in that the Roman Empire existed for many centuries and spread it’s territories over much of the known world allowing the disciples to go with it.
#2 - Marriage is a discipline that was introduced later on. It was never a doctrine. In fact scripture has the requirements for a bishop one who has a good family life.
#3 - The Church is not just an organization that believes in Him. This invisible church theory means that one can have faith in Christ but have different opinions on what this faith means and what they should do about it. Very confusing. Do you think Christ wanted it that way if He was about Truth?
#4 - Yes, Peter was Jewish and the Catholic Church is the New Covenant in His Blood and the successor of the Old Covenant. This can be seen in the Liturgy where many of the Jewish temple practices can be observed in the elements of the Mass.
mdcpensive1
S
Sheeniac
Guest
I’ve also read theories that his wife was no longer alive, or else she would be looking after her own mother.
S
Spirithound
Guest
The key to dealing with this type of person is to (try to) force him to commit to something solid. The points that your friend brought up are vague and full of straw men, and I’m sure some of our more knowledgeable apologists could write veritable tomes on each of them. If you can get you friend to level a clear charge against the Church, then you can most effectively discharge his wrath. I have given questions below to help break down the claims.
)
So, some of the questions are actually questions for the attack, but they’re important too Remember to pray!
God bless!
Why are you asking if Peter started the Catholic Church? What happened on Pentecost? Are you trying to say something about Peter’s papacy? What? Can you prove that?
What do you mean by “Where’s Catholicism?”? What is it that there is no biblical basis for? What do you think this verse is saying? How about verse 19?
(this charge is clear enough, no questions required and I believe Church Militant and others can help you much better than I can
)Did Peter start the discipline of a celibate priesthood? Was celibacy the requirement or even the norm in the early centuries? How about in the East?
How does this point take away from Peter’s papacy? Was he not the leader of the organization of believers? What do you think the Catholic Church believes about a “series of buildings”? What was the nature of the organization of believers? Were their beliefs distinct from those cultures surrounding them? What were those beliefs? How do you know? What do the writings of the early Christians (Early Church Fathers) say?
What rituals are you thinking of? Can you back up those claims?
So, some of the questions are actually questions for the attack, but they’re important too
Remember to pray!God bless!
S
Spirithound
Guest
Wouldn’t Peter live with his wife? Share with the caring duties?
P
PC_Master
Guest
Really?
Verse 19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
There are other topics on infallibility, so I won’t go into that here.
Clearly this passage does not have “unanimous consent” of the early church fathers.
As Catholic is merely a term for universal, it’s akin to speaking of “the universal church”, and the presence of such a term does not necessarily refer to the church of Rome simply because it has chosen to take on that name. Likewise, Mormons call themselves Christians and even Saints, but I certainly wouldn’t agree that they use the terms properly. In fact, if it weren’t for the massive misuse of the term Catholic over the ages by the Roman church, I would lean toward calling myself a Catholic.
Yup – there’s nothing quite like correcting those stupid Protestants and their misconceptions about the one true apostolic faith…
Seriously – couldn’t you deal with this in a Christ-centered way, instead?
Of course not – however, that Paul even said in Rome that only Luke was with him prior to his death seems to indicate that Peter had either forsaken him, or simply wasn’t there. We also know he wasn’t in Rome during the “Council of Jerusalem” (Acts 15). Bear in mind that travelling from Jerusalem to Rome would not have been a short trip, and so there would have been a sizable absense in his pontificate.Paul never mentions most of the other apostles and where they went…does that mean that history doesn’t count?
There is some belief that Peter was buried in Jerusalem.
There’s also this which I don’t know the authenticity of.
As for an upside-down crucifixion, I’d mention that such is only contained in the “Acts of Peter”, which isn’t canon according to the Catholic church.
As for the rest – just because you have an altar and some bones…you think that means they’re certainly Peter’s bones? I’ve read articles which claim Peter’s tomb to have been found in Jerusalem, and they do point out that if Peter was buried beneth St. Peter’s in Rome, he’d have had to have been buried in a pagan cemetary, which hardly seems fitting for the first pope, would you not agree?
Oh, and how many different sets of bones of Peter have there been so far? I’ve heard of two sets aside from the traditional relics.
Let’s see here – I would say “Jesus himself preached against things like the Roman Catholic Church”. However, that’s rhetoric without supporting information. To say he started a church (as in the real meaning of the word – group of called out people) is not unreasonable. To say he started a specific religious organization, however, is rather presumptuous without some supporting evidence.
Celibacy…I’m not even sure where to start on that.
Yes, and so was Paul. And yet, scripture goes to the point of saying “let him be a husband to only one wife”. Clearly the biblical view was not that celibacy was necessary for religious service.Matthew 19:10-12 & 1st Corinthians 7:6-9. BTW, Jesus was celibate.No? Really!?
P
PC_Master
Guest
Many of the early Christians were Jews, including Peter and most of the other apostles. And yes, Peter was a Christian – but remember that Protestants don’t consider the term synonymous with Catholic, at least not in the Roman Catholic sense of the word.
As for pagan rituals – Christmas, Easter (aka Ishtar, Aphrodite, etc), Lent (aka “Spring”, used as part of “weeping for Tamuz”), weekly communion (“the Eucharist”, but also the same thing done by Mithraist sun worshippers, who would “eat the sun”), and many other things in “Christianity” have very pagan origins. Seriously, look at the history from a non-Catholic book some time and see what you find.
Actually, it’s about par with standard ****** apologetics, right in line with ****** protestant apologetics too.Church Militant, you are so good at apologetics! Great answer!
See my above comment.
This sounds like unsubstantiated rhetoric. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Thank you for seeing that.
I don’t know. Since we’re delving into the mind of the almighty, I’ll ask a question – do you think that God, if he was going to take such care to establish an organization (ala the Roman Catholic Church) to promote his message, would have been as ambiguous as he was? I mean, why in the world didn’t he simply write it all down – “There will be a church named Catholic, and it will be my one true church, led by a successor of Peter, etc”.
God could have done that. The point is he didn’t. More importantly, we don’t really know why. We do not know the mind of God, and thus making “do you think God would do X” arguments is rhetoric more than it is argument.
So when God said he was going to create a new covenant that “will not be like the old one” (that’s from Jeremiah if I recall), he didn’t really mean that?
I’d love to see where you can find a credible historic source for that information. I’ll bet it’s tradition, not fact.
P
Proletarian
Guest
The Church is the body of all believers. If there are no believers there is no Church; simple.
For 1500 years there was nothing but the Catholic Church. There was no other group of believers running along side The Church in secrecy until the reformation.
Your friend may say one of two things; that such a group existed (which he will have to have to prove BTW he can’t because there wasn’t) or that the true faith died out and laid dormant until the reformation, in which case there were no believers and thus no Church for 15 centuries and that death prevailed against the Church.
S
SemperTotusTuus
Guest
The Church is the Body of Christ guided by the Holy Spirit. A body without the spirit is a corpse. A spirit without a visible body is a phantom.
O
Oblaidon
Guest
Thanks for all the help. (My comments in the following have asterics) With your help, this is my response to him:
Did Peter start the catholic church? Did Jesus? NO.?
Catholicism loves to bring up this scripture:
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matt 16:18 (KJV)
Where’s catholicism?
Fact is, that there is no biblical basis for this. And this is the same bible that catholic leaders say is the truth.
*What is it that there is no biblical basis for?
Ok, now on the flip-side- what evidence is there that says Peter didn’t start the church or was the first Pope?
Verse 19: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Does this verse suggest solo scriptora?
Where is the scripture that says “Thou shalt leave thy main church and form your own worship communities?”
Did Peter start the catholic church? Did Jesus? NO.?
Code:
*The Church is the body of all believers. If there are no believers there is no Church.
*For 1500 years there was nothing but the Catholic Church. There was no other group of believers running along side The Church in secrecy until the reformation.18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matt 16:18 (KJV)
Code:
*You wanted scripture. But when Catholics quote scripture are we misinterpreting it?Fact is, that there is no biblical basis for this. And this is the same bible that catholic leaders say is the truth.
*What is it that there is no biblical basis for?
Ok, now on the flip-side- what evidence is there that says Peter didn’t start the church or was the first Pope?
- He never went to Rome (Paul went- in a letter adressed 27 people without mentioning Peter- huh?)
*Paul never mentions most of the other apostles and where they went…does that mean that history doesn’t count? - He was married.
14 And when Jesus was come into Peter’s house, he saw his wife’s mother laid, and sick of a fever.
Matt 8:14 (KJV)
Why would a married man start an un-married law in a church?
*Ummmmm, was Christ married? - The church that Jesus is referring to is not a series of buildings- it’s an organization of those who believe in Him.
*yes, an Organization. Not many organizations. Protestants have many interpretations of scripture. A protestant preacher can act alone in declaring something to his congregation. A protestant belief can be so different, it can branch off and make another denomination. Don’t you think the verse would read “I will build my churches” if that were the case? If there is only one church (one organization), what church would that be? - Peter was Jewish. Why Roman and greek pagan rituals?
*Exactly, which “pagan rituals” where you referring to?
Verse 19: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Does this verse suggest solo scriptora?
Where is the scripture that says “Thou shalt leave thy main church and form your own worship communities?”
M
mercygate
Guest
Nothing like being thrown into the fray to get your knowledge base up and running! God bless you.
I would strongly advise NEVER saying anything in writing that could be construed as arrogant, testy, sarcastic, or patronizing. The soft answer that “turneth away wrath” will enable your interlocutor to feel “safe” in corresponding with you. Even when they come on like gangbusters with absurdities, respond as if they were your beloved, dear friend, and as if they had humbly and sincerely asked a *real *question. Later on in the game, if you see they are just acting up and not serious, you may have to call them on it. But give them a little punching room. You have no IDEA how poisonous the anti-Catholic feeling is that some people are fed along with their mother’s milk.
O
Oblaidon
Guest
I hope I didn’t come on too strong. Thanks for the advice.
M
mercygate
Guest
If that was your maiden run, you did very well. And you certainly did not respond with more acerbity than was offered by your challenger.
R
rr1213
Guest
Not according to the Apostle Paul:
1 Cor 9:5 “Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?”
M
mercygate
Guest
Good point. The person challenged on this as part of a package (such as this was) should also separate the celibacy issue from the rest of the “accusations” because priestly celibacy was not universal in the early church (nor is it today, even in the Latin Church), and it has nothing to do with Peter, or his being in Rome or who founded the Church.
S
Sheeniac
Guest
Actually, it was neither. It was an attempt to understand the meaning thereof.
P
PC_Master
Guest
And yet most Roman Catholics will assert it as fact that his wife had died already. This only goes to show that most Roman Catholics don’t know their faith very well, not unlike many non-Roman-Catholics.
- Status