Gather Us In hymn

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sbee0
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
DaveBj said:
40.png
Loud-living-dogma:
As Pope Pius X said: “Music is a humble handmaid of the liturgy”.
Click to expand...
And that (the perceived subordination of the role of music in the liturgy) is a large part of why Catholics don’t sing. “It’s not important, so why should I bother?”
Click to expand...
Yes, there are a lot of layers of “why Catholics don’t sing”.
One of them is the tectonic shift that happened in the 1960s, wherein people who were used to not singing (for the most part) were expected to sing a bunch of hymns (which were often of the happy clappy variety).
I find it interesting that so much of pre-Vatican II Catholic culture has not survived, but the culture of non-singing has survived.
But what do you mean, the perceived subordination of the role of music? If Saint Pope Pius X says it is subordinate, do you disagree?
 
Last edited:
Loud-living-dogma said:
Yes, there are a lot of layers of “why Catholics don’t sing”.
One of them is the tectonic shift that happened in the 1960s, wherein people who were used to not singing (for the most part) were expected to sing a bunch of hymns (which were often of the happy clappy variety).
I find it interesting that so much of pre-Vatican II Catholic culture has not survived, but the culture of non-singing has survived.
But what do you mean, the perceived subordination of the role of music? If Saint Pope Pius X says it is subordinate, do you disagree?
Click to expand...
I am a convert (2005), so I never experienced the pre-VII Mass. However, I did marry a Catholic girl in 1970, and was exposed to the new folk-mass music. As a wanna-be folk-singer myself, I found that music to be almost universally bad, both as folk music, and as music for worship. I don’t blame the gap-bridgers for tuning it out; I try to when those songs come up in our Sunday rotation.

As to my use of the term “perceived subordination”, I was coming from the point of view of the average Catholic-in-the-pew, who very likely has never read what you posted, but who has experienced a “don’t-care” attitude on the part of those directing the music ministry… If you take SSPX’s words literally, they would rule out a lot of the music composed by the Renaissance musicians (not that they’re sung very much anyway). A Motu Proprio is not an ex-cathedra statement, and while I do not believe that music should play a dominant role and be served by the rest of the liturgy, neither do I believe that a verse glorifying the Holy Spirit should be omitted, just because it’s suddenly time to move on to something else, as described above.

D
 
Last edited:
I’m a convert too (2008), and I enjoy going to our local EF Mass when I can get there. It’s so different, it literally feels almost like a different denomination. It’s been an education, to say the least.
 
No, because I play primarily at parishes with OF Masses, where these things seldom/never happen.

When I have played at the Latin Mass parish, I am cued when to play (organ), which is very little. The men’s schola does the chanting, and their leader gives the pitch.

If I lived somewhere where the traditional Mass was the primary Mass in the parishes near me, I would learn these things. But I don’t live there, and I am not likely to live there unless God has some really different things planned for me than I am expecting. (I am expecting to keep working in my city for another 6-7 years (hospital), and then move out to the country, or possibly stay right here in our house in the city–all of this assuming that we remain healthy enough to live on our own.)
 
Then somebody had better get really busy and write a whole bunch of new hymns for the Mass, with only 2 verses, and a complete message within those two verses.

Or go with choruses, as I mentioned earlier. There are a ton of choruses left over from the 1980s and 1990s, and some of them are very good and actually singable by people who aren’t sopranos.

I am not saying that the Mass music should dominate the liturgy. But the Catholic Church in the U.S. is losing six (6) people for every one (1) person who comes into the Church, and many of those people walk out the door because they love the music at another church (either classical/traditional or modern/contemporary, or sometimes both).

To sit back and say, “Let’s just go back to chant” is not the answer. The vast majority of people who live in the U.S do NOT posses the musical chops to have any clue how to sing chant or what to listen for in chant! It would sound like dying cats caterwauling out in the frozen backyard while being eaten alive by coyotes. Awful. It would literally drive people out of the Church in the U.S.

UNLESS there is a major revolution in how music is taught in the public and private schools, chant simply is not an option for the vast majority of churches in the U.S.

Our parish plans to start using a chanted Sanctus and Agnus Dei, and I’m already dreading it. I keep thinking of Fran Drescher in The Nanny. 😝
 
Peeps said:
Then somebody had better get really busy and write a whole bunch of new hymns for the Mass, with only 2 verses, and a complete message within those two verses.
Click to expand...
Yes, these are “a thing” - - called the Propers.
Here they are in English:
https://musicasacra.com/music/english-propers/
I am not saying that the Mass music should dominate the liturgy. But the Catholic Church in the U.S. is losing six (6) people for every one (1) person who comes into the Church, and many of those people walk out the door because they love the music at another church (either classical/traditional or modern/contemporary, or sometimes both).
To sit back and say, “Let’s just go back to chant” is not the answer. The vast majority of people who live in the U.S do NOT posses the musical chops to have any clue how to sing chant or what to listen for in chant! It would sound like dying cats caterwauling out in the frozen backyard while being eaten alive by coyotes. Awful. It would literally drive people out of the Church in the U.S.
Click to expand...
So, we should not use the preferred music of the Roman Catholic Church? You seem very authoritative. There are ways to turn around a music program, but it's probably best done gradually, and by people who are sympathetic to the music of the Catholic Church, not people who are trying to replicate only protestant-style hymn singing.
UNLESS there is a major revolution in how music is taught in the public and private schools, chant simply is not an option for the vast majority of churches in the U.S.
Our parish plans to start using a chanted Sanctus and Agnus Dei, and I’m already dreading it. I keep thinking of Fran Drescher in The Nanny. 😝
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Peeps said:
No, because I play primarily at parishes with OF Masses, where these things seldom/never happen.
Click to expand...
“These things”? What things? The priest chanting the Mass?
Believe it or not, the “24 Things” document is meant to apply to the OF.
 
So why doesn’t it happen at the OF Mass?

Do you really think that priests will start chanting the OF Mass?

I’ve heard it once. In 14 years.
 
What people who are "sympathetic to the music of the Catholic Church?!

Where are they?!

I would think that after 14 years in the Church, I would see some articles by these folks, perhaps in our diocesan weekly newspaper, or on CAF. I know that there are “conventions” of Traditional Catholic Music, but frankly, I have never seen the point of taking the time off and paying to attend. I am a lay accompanist. I am NOT in a position to plan and implement the music in my parish. We have a Music Director who works at another job to support himself, and HE is the authority over the liturgy in my parish! It is NOT my place to try to displace him or his work.

I suspect that these people are in the Big Cities working at the Big Churches where there are lots of professional and semiprofessional musicians, and a tourist industry that brings many visitors and their offerings into the parishes to pay stipends to these musicians.

And unless you have a lot of experience singing in Protestant churches, please don’t refer to “Protestant-style singing”. WHICH type of Protestant-style singing are you talking about? Traditional?" “Traditional Praise?” “High-Church?” “Classical?” “Southern Gospel?” “Contemporary?” “Praise and Worship?”

There is no reason why Catholics can’t sing in 4 parts–that is NOT forbidden in liturgy. And there is no reason why they can’t sing in full voices, with all their hearts–it’s not forbidden in liturgy. That’s all I’m asking. I don’t expect Catholics to start “Cowboy Masses” and bring in old Ralph Carmichael songs (which are actually quite beautiful).

As for the Propers–have YOU taught them to your congregation? How did it go? This type of music doesn’t seem to be spreading in Catholic parishes, at least not in our part of the country. Why? Why do you think people are resistant to it? Before you can implement something, you have to figure out why it isn’t easily accepted. Do you think that perhaps those Catholics who graduate with music degrees and know/love Propers can’t find a position that pays a living wage in parishes outside of the Big Cities?

I would make a bet with you that only about 10% of Catholics would be able to sing ANY “Propers.” Why?

I don’t think it’s going to happen. I honestly don’t. The parishes can’t afford to lose that many people who would head over the local Megachurch for the good music.

Perhaps there are some Catholics who would say, “Well, with that attitude, it’s better that they are gone.” I hope that most of us would never say or think such a thing. It’s tragic when people leave the Church over music, but it’s more tragic when people in positions to pass on “traditional” Catholic music don’t do so. Or perhaps the tragedy is that there are so few people who can pass on “traditional” Catholic music. How can this change?
 
Last edited:
A few years ago in our city (at the cathedral), I heard a student group (high school!) from Mt. Vernon, Indiana. They were named “Angelus,” and they sang a variety of music, mainly a capella, including lots of chant. It was very beautiful.

So I’m thinking that perhaps because Indiana isn’t run by a corrupt State government like Illinois, maybe the schools, including public schools, have a much better system of music education, and perhaps the teachers have a lot more freedom to be able to teach lots of different music styles instead of sticking with “rap” and “hip hop” like in our city. (I’m not kidding.)

This would create a population that is more appreciative of all kinds of music styles and a willingness to accept and enjoy music other than the popular styles. Of course this will carry over into churches, where people would be eager to delve into their history and hear/participate in ancient styles as well as modern.

Is Indiana home to any of the huge megachurches? In our city, we are within fairly easy driving distance of Willowcreek, which attracts 20,000 “seekers” or more every week (although since the Bill Hybels has gotten caught up in scandal, the numbers might be down). However, there are two fairly large megachurches in our city that feature professional (paid) musicians performing popular Christian music, and this is very appealing compared to the typical Protestant church with a pianist like me and a volunteer song leader and/or choir.

Again, I’m not trying to trash traditional Catholic music. I just want it done WELL rather than lack-luster. Well-done music is contagious–people flock to it and want to be part of it. If they can’t sing/play it, they at least want to listen to it and Christians want to pray it as they listen. But lack-luster music drives people away. That’s what Catholics need to do–sing ALL music for the glory of God and put their hearts into it.
 
Where are the musicians who are sdvocating for authentic liturgical music? Here they are! https://musicasacra.com

Some priests seem interested in promoting good authentic liturgical music, others less so…
 
It’s possible that priests take a look at their local population and realize that there aren’t enough musicians with the chops to lead this kind of music in their parishes. I know this is true in our city. There are very few organists, and not that many pianists (which won’t work for the ancient music). As I’ve said over and over, the public school music education program has been very spotty over the last few decades, so many people in the city don’t know how to sing or read music; many of the classical singers for local programs are hired from Chicago or further. There is a local symphony orchestra, but it’s not particularly popular, and neither are the classical programs sponsored by the local music club, which struggles to keep its doors open (there are a few wealthy people who are dedicated to keeping classical music going).

Also, as I said, when you look at location and see the megachurches attracting 20,000 people with their contemporary worship music, and listen to reports of most of your youth group departing for these megachurches once they are confirmed and get their drivers’ licenses–well, the more ancient music seems like a very risky way to go.
 
Peeps said:
There is no reason why Catholics can’t sing in 4 parts–that is NOT forbidden in liturgy. And there is no reason why they can’t sing in full voices, with all their hearts–it’s not forbidden in liturgy.
Click to expand...
Along these lines, among my second cousins there is a family of four siblings, two girls and two boys, ranging in age from 24 to 16, all of them extremely talented, who themselves make up a very competent Southern Gospel quartet. I have a fantasy of bringing them to Mass on a day when I know in advance that the hymns are going to be familiar ones, to which each of the cousins knows his/her particular part, scatter them through the congregation (but not too far apart), and turn them loose 😃

D
 
Well, there are a few megachurch type churches here for sure. There is also a large Catholic parish that I almost think of as a mega-parish. I do think it would be helpful if the bishops set the tone and provided good guidance, so all parishes in a diocese would be going in the same direction. Then each individual priest wouldn’t have to live in fear that as he implemented authentic liturgical music, his parishioners wouldn’t go running off to another parish, because all parishes would be implementing similar reforms. Doesn’t seem likely though, does it… It would function like a county-wide smoking ban, where all establishments are on a level playing field…
 
Last edited:
I agree with you–it does not seem likely that the bishops will take the risk of returning the Church to a music form that doesn’t seem to touch the vast majority of people in their hearts and sharpen their minds. The approach that you are advocating appeals to a certain group of people with certain personality traits–but this is a small group, and the Church really can’t afford to lose a lot of people.

I have to say that I don’t think the Propers arrangements that I have listened to are particularly beautiful and they don’t appeal to my heart at all.

Now my brain–yes. In our parish, the Opening Antiphon and the Communion Antiphon are recited depending on which priest is saying Mass that day.

But an Antiphon is a far cry from a hymn. A hymn is both emotionally and intellectually satisfying and “meaty.”

When I talk about losing people, I’m not just saying that they will walk away. I think that most Catholics who don’t like their parish music continue to attend, but I think they also are more vulnerable to an invitation to attend a vibrant Christian fellowship–not necessarily on Sundays–where the music is truly GOOD.

I know a lot of Christians who love the pipe organ, but they never hear it in their parishes and fellowships. So they drop in at churches where the music is high and mighty!

I know even more Christians who drop by various Protestant Bible studies and even church services so they can hear well-done contemporary Christian music, traditional praise, gospel music, and a rich assortment of hymns with all the verses sung!

Music appeals to both the brain and the heart. Many Catholics are frustrated with their music because it seems “banal” to them–I would challenge those Catholics to read through the ENTIRE hymn, even if it isn’t sung, and also to investigate the story behind the hymn. I do think that one reason why so many Catholic hymns written in the last 50 years seem shallow is because they were written in a office because the publishing company asked a composer for a dozen “new-sounding” hymns for a Catholic hymnal–there’s no “story” behind the hymn. The composer didn’t write it out of a tragedy or triumph in their lives, or out of a glimpse of God’s greatness when they first saw the ocean, or out of a struggle with some besetting sin.

I could be wrong about this, and I don’t want to spread untruths about some of the St. Louis Jesuit hymn-writers. But it does seem like so many of the Protestant hymns (some of which are in our Catholic hymnals) have beautiful stories behind them, and when you know those stories, they make the hymns come to life.

And once again, I’m not saying to trash all the traditional stuff and go with a rock band and a song-leader instead of a cantor. I think ANY sacred music of ANY style, including chant, will be well-received even by people like me if it is done with EXCELLENCE–as well as the person doing the music can do.
 
Last edited:
Oh well, I think we agree that the worst thing about Catholic music at Mass is that it is sometimes executed poorly. That probably does drive people away.

However, I think you seem to perhaps overestimate the importance of hymns at Mass, when they are really not an integral part of Mass, and in fact replace things that are supposed to be an integral part of Mass (the “Propers”). I just think that if Gregorian chant is supposed to have pride of place, in general American parishes don’t exhibit that.

Having said that, I’m sure you do a lovely job accompanying the hymns at your parish, you seem very passionate and dedicated. Thank you for all that you do.
 
I enjoy the song very much. Maybe it makes people uncomfortable with the nudge to address vanity ? That said, I enjoy some Gregorian Chant early in the morning. Peace be with all of you
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top