Gathering around the altar

  • Thread starter Thread starter regression
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

regression

Guest
This past weekend I attended a retreat at my local parish. There was a Mass to end the retreat. Right before the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest had us gather around the altar. I felt very uncomfortable doing this. Do you think I am making too much of this or is this a liturgical abuse?
 
It’s a violation of the teaching of Vatican II.
  1. In liturgical celebrations each person, minister or layman, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to his office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.
    S.C. vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
See this Notitiae notitiae.ipsissima-verba.org/show/208

DOUBT* CONCERNING THE « ORDER OF MASS »

At the offertory of a community Mass, some (religious men and women, lay persons) bring down the bread and wine to be consecrated to the altar, and these gifts are accepted by the celebrating priest. All the participants together accompany the procession in which the gifts are brought forward, and they stand around the altar until communion.

Is this manner of acting in conformity with the letter and the spirit of the Roman Missal?

℟. Certainly the Eucharistic celebration is an act of the community, which is carried out by all the members of the liturgical assembly. Yet each person ought to have and keep his own place and the role proper to himself: « each minister or member of the faithful, performing his own role, should exercise solely and completely what pertains to him according the nature of the matter and the liturgical norms » (« Sacrosanctum Concilium », n. 28).

In carrying out the eucharistic liturgy, only the celebrant who is presiding remains at the altar; the assembly of those participating hold their place in the church outside of the sanctuary, which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and the ministers.
  • In this context, the word “doubt” is a translation of dubium, meaning “question.” It simply means “this is the question that was asked.”
 
Thank you Fr David. I am not familiar with a Notitiae, so when I get home from work today I will try and find what that is. I suppose I will have to prayerful decide if I want to ask the priest about this. If so, I want to have the proper instruction from the Church to back up what I am saying.
 
Keep in mind that gathering around the altar is the norm in enclosed monastic communities. The lay brothers will gather with the priest/celebrant brothers around the altar during consecration and for reception.

I am not saying that this translates to it being acceptable in parish settings. It is not.

I am simply pointed out that it is permitted and done for very good reason in case someone should see it in a monastic setting and think it an abuse.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Keep in mind that gathering around the altar is the norm in enclosed monastic communities. The lay brothers will gather with the priest/celebrant brothers around the altar at every Mass.

I am not saying that this translates to it being acceptable in parish settings. I am simply pointed out that it is permitted and done for very good reason in case someone should see it in a monastic setting and think it an abuse.

-Tim-
Click to expand...
No, it’s not “permitted.” Nor is it done for “good reason.”

It might be done (I have no doubt), but that does not mean that it’s proper nor does it mean that it’s permitted.

If it were permitted (if it were “the norm” as you say) then surely someone would have informed the Holy See of that fact. Or not? Since the (then) Congregation for Sacraments said that it’s not proper, I am inclined to believe what they wrote in the Notitiae.

The question itself specifically asked about “religious men and women” (as the translator rendered it). I find it hard to believe that the Congregation would give the wrong answer.
 
TimothyH said:
Keep in mind that gathering around the altar is the norm in enclosed monastic communities. The lay brothers will gather with the priest/celebrant brothers around the altar during consecration and for reception.

I am not saying that this translates to it being acceptable in parish settings. It is not.

I am simply pointed out that it is permitted and done for very good reason in case someone should see it in a monastic setting and think it an abuse.

-Tim-
Click to expand...
I lived in an enclosed monastic community – the Abbey of St. Walburga in Colorado – as a postulant and novice for over two years. We never gathered around the altar for any liturgy whatsoever, and certainly not for mass. In fact, the only time there was ever more than one of us on the altar was to decorate the trees on Christmas Eve 😃

Gertie
 
Before we go into the legalistic jargon, regarding why it shouldn’t be conducted, we should look at the reason why it is being conducted.

I used to attend a church where every Sunday, the priest would invite the children to come up to the altar and say the Lord’s prayer and it was very beautiful. It encouraged community to develop. It was one of my favorite moments of the mass.

If it is being done in a respective manner that encourages prayer and community to develop, then who are we to judge? From the sounds of it, in the original post, it seemed to follow the important level of respect so what is the big deal? I can understand one being uncomfortable because it forced the person to go out of her comfort zone which means if it happens again, she doesn’t have to join in it, but with every ritual we do in church, we need to always ask where is Christ inside it? If Christ is the centre and He is being respected, let’s go with the flow and see how our faith can be enriched by doing something new and different.
 
SecretGarden said:
Before we go into the legalistic jargon, regarding why it shouldn’t be conducted, we should look at the reason why it is being conducted.

I used to attend a church where every Sunday, the priest would invite the children to come up to the altar and say the Lord’s prayer and it was very beautiful. It encouraged community to develop. It was one of my favorite moments of the mass.

If it is being done in a respective manner that encourages prayer and community to develop, then who are we to judge? From the sounds of it, in the original post, it seemed to follow the important level of respect so what is the big deal? I can understand one being uncomfortable because it forced the person to go out of her comfort zone which means if it happens again, she doesn’t have to join in it, but with every ritual we do in church, we need to always ask where is Christ inside it? If Christ is the centre and He is being respected, let’s go with the flow and see how our faith can be enriched by doing something new and different.
Click to expand...
It’s wrong to do it.

It’s not “who are we to judge?” but “who are we to say that we know better than the Church?”

Vatican II teaches that active participation means that everyone has a proper role at Mass, and these roles are not to be confused.

Novelties such as this have no place in the Mass.
 
For anybody wondering, “Notitiae” in this case means “Notices.”

What happens is that somebody submits a letter containing a question (known as a “Dubium,” which means “doubt” or “doubtful thing”) to the CDF or some such Vatican agency.

If it seems like it needs a formal response or ruling, they will answer whoever asked the dubium with an official letter, and then the contents of that letter will be printed in the official Notitiae journal of Vatican decisions.

And yes, it’s been known for a long time that “everybody gathers around the altar” or “all you kids gather around the altar” is a no no. A lot of parishes and communities ignore that, or they have somehow managed to stay ignorant that it’s forbidden.

OTOH, if people really have their heart set on it, you could just train every single member of the congregation, or every single kid, to act as servers. There’s no limit on how many acolytes you can have, as far as I’ve ever heard. Maybe there’s a maximum number if you’re not a bishop.

But although all servers are up on the altar area, they still don’t all gather around the altar as close as these sorts of people usually want you to do. So obviously the weird behavior is somehow being privileged above the legit behavior.
 
TimothyH said:
Keep in mind that gathering around the altar is the norm in enclosed monastic communities. The lay brothers will gather with the priest/celebrant brothers around the altar during consecration and for reception.

I am not saying that this translates to it being acceptable in parish settings. It is not.

I am simply pointed out that it is permitted and done for very good reason in case someone should see it in a monastic setting and think it an abuse.

-Tim-
Click to expand...
It depends on the community. On my travels to different Benedictine monasteries, I’ve only seen it done once, at a Benedictine community in England. At the abbey I’m attached to, the liturgy is rather more formal and the only people around the altar are: the concelebrating priests, the deacon, and the acolytes serving at Mass. Mostly the non-ordained brothers are in their stalls, or in “sick bay” (seats in the sanctuary but that are quite removed from the altar; elderly, infirm or ill monks sit there as there are no steps to climb, and for those contagious, it is well removed from anyone else).

I’d be very hesitant though, to tell a community what they’re doing is “wrong”. It’s their community, and their liturgy. You can be sure that if they are doing something like this “outside the norm”, the superior general knows about it and allows it to happen (monasteries receive a canonical visit regularly). The bishop also has no jurisdiction. We have to remember that when we attend a monastery’s Mass, we do so as a guest. They are under no obligation to open their Mass to the public though they just about all do, but they also have private Masses as well.
 
I should have been more clear in my first post. The retreat / Mass was not at a monastery. It was held at the local parish and the Mass was said by the pastor of the church. He has said in the past he doesn’t like rules, so please pray for him and the parish, that he may lead according to the rules of the Church and not his own.
 
OraLabora said:
It depends on the community. …
I’d be very hesitant though, to tell a community what they’re doing is “wrong”. It’s their community, and their liturgy. You can be sure that if they are doing something like this “outside the norm”, the superior general knows about it and allows it to happen (monasteries receive a canonical visit regularly). The bishop also has no jurisdiction. We have to remember that when we attend a monastery’s Mass, we do so as a guest. They are under no obligation to open their Mass to the public though they just about all do, but they also have private Masses as well.
Click to expand...
It is the Church who decides what is right or wrong at the Mass. Not the local community.

It is not “their liturgy,” as you posted. It is the Church’s liturgy.

It’s good to recall the words of St John Paul the Great (emphasis mine)

I consider it my duty, therefore to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity. These norms are a concrete expression of the authentically ecclesial nature of the Eucharist; this is their deepest meaning. Liturgy is never anyone’s private property, be it of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated. vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html

The attitude that “this is my liturgy” or “this is our liturgy” in contrast to what is the Church’s is at the very core of liturgical abuses.

This is the beginning of paragraph 52 (from above):
  1. All of this makes clear the great responsibility which belongs to priests in particular for the celebration of the Eucharist. It is their responsibility to preside at the Eucharist in persona Christi and to provide a witness to and a service of communion not only for the community directly taking part in the celebration, but also** for the universal Church**, which is a part of every Eucharist. It must be lamented that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reform, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many. A certain reaction against “formalism” has led some, especially in certain regions, to consider the “forms” chosen by the Church’s great liturgical tradition and her Magisterium as non-binding and to introduce unauthorized innovations which are often completely inappropriate.
 
Our church, under the current and past pastor, have the First Communicants stand around the ends of the altar on that day. It seems to be a regional practice from what I’ve gathered from others.
 
SecretGarden said:
Before we go into the legalistic jargon, regarding why it shouldn’t be conducted, we should look at the reason why it is being conducted.

I used to attend a church where every Sunday, the priest would invite the children to come up to the altar and say the Lord’s prayer and it was very beautiful. It encouraged community to develop. It was one of my favorite moments of the mass.

If it is being done in a respective manner that encourages prayer and community to develop, then who are we to judge? From the sounds of it, in the original post, it seemed to follow the important level of respect so what is the big deal? I can understand one being uncomfortable because it forced the person to go out of her comfort zone which means if it happens again, she doesn’t have to join in it, but with every ritual we do in church, we need to always ask where is Christ inside it? If Christ is the centre and He is being respected, let’s go with the flow and see how our faith can be enriched by doing something new and different.
Click to expand...
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass isn’t there for community development. If all the children gather around the altar as junior concelebrants, is the focus really on Christ, or “look at how cute all those children are”?
 
I agree. As a convert in year 2000, I think our RCIA class did the same. Too long ago and my ancient age - I “think” I remember being there too.
 
FrDavid96 said:
It is the Church who decides what is right or wrong at the Mass. Not the local community.

It is not “their liturgy,” as you posted. It is the Church’s liturgy.

It’s good to recall the words of St John Paul the Great (emphasis mine)
I consider it my duty, therefore to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity. These norms are a concrete expression of the authentically ecclesial nature of the Eucharist; this is their deepest meaning. Liturgy is never anyone’s private property, be it of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated. vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.htmlThe attitude that “this is my liturgy” or “this is our liturgy” in contrast to what is the Church’s is at the very core of liturgical abuses.

This is the beginning of paragraph 52 (from above):
52. All of this makes clear the great responsibility which belongs to priests in particular for the celebration of the Eucharist. It is their responsibility to preside at the Eucharist in persona Christi and to provide a witness to and a service of communion not only for the community directly taking part in the celebration, but also** for the universal Church**, which is a part of every Eucharist. It must be lamented that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reform, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many. A certain reaction against “formalism” has led some, especially in certain regions, to consider the “forms” chosen by the Church’s great liturgical tradition and her Magisterium as non-binding and to introduce unauthorized innovations which are often completely inappropriate.
Click to expand...
Father, thank you for this. I wish I could show it to my priest – a kind and very popular man who is convinced that ad libbing the Eucharistic prayers and never saying the Creed or Gloria, having the children come and hold hands around the altar, etc. leads to ‘direct participation’ from the people. In the kindest possible way he told me that I should simply ignore the “front part of the songbook” (i.e. where the Mass setting is) and all would be well. (I had asked him about the above which I had never seen done --at least not all of it, all the time, since the 1980s anyway!) It has indeed been a great source of suffering to me and also my 85 year old mother. Truly, it is not about our ‘refusing to step outside our comfort zone’ (which is the advice usually hurled at us); I just would like to hear Mass as the Church itself has given us. Just because Father (and obviously many of the congregation) like ‘innovations’ shouldn’t be a reason to use them, should it? I didn’t think that liturgy was made by ‘vote’. . .

Sorry if this is a downer but it really hurts.
 
My Pastor in a former parish used to do this at every weekday Mass. I didn’t feel comfortable so I always stayed in the Pews. I felt bad so I went and talked to him and told him I didn’t come up because I wanted t be on my knees when the “Lord arrived” He told me that was fine-he was just glad I made an effort to make it to daily Mass-where I stood or sat did not matter. I didn’t realize it was a violation but , as I said, I never liked it
 
FRDavid is right on here. Regardless of intention the rules should be followed.
 
FrDavid96 said:
It’s a violation of the teaching of Vatican II.
  1. In liturgical celebrations each person, minister or layman, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to his office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.
    S.C. vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
See this Notitiae notitiae.ipsissima-verba.org/show/208

DOUBT* CONCERNING THE « ORDER OF MASS »

At the offertory of a community Mass, some (religious men and women, lay persons) bring down the bread and wine to be consecrated to the altar, and these gifts are accepted by the celebrating priest. All the participants together accompany the procession in which the gifts are brought forward, and they stand around the altar until communion.

Is this manner of acting in conformity with the letter and the spirit of the Roman Missal?

℟. Certainly the Eucharistic celebration is an act of the community, which is carried out by all the members of the liturgical assembly. Yet each person ought to have and keep his own place and the role proper to himself: « each minister or member of the faithful, performing his own role, should exercise solely and completely what pertains to him according the nature of the matter and the liturgical norms » (« Sacrosanctum Concilium », n. 28).

In carrying out the eucharistic liturgy, only the celebrant who is presiding remains at the altar; the assembly of those participating hold their place in the church outside of the sanctuary, which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and the ministers.
  • In this context, the word “doubt” is a translation of dubium, meaning “question.” It simply means “this is the question that was asked.”
Click to expand...
But presumably it would not be an “abuse” if the community is gathered within the chancel (ie outside of the Sanctuary) close to the altar. And nobody is suggesting that the community is doing anything other than their role as participants in the mass are they?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top