Gathering at the Alter

[Colin_Adian]

I am teaching a summer program called Totus Tuus. It is for kids1-8th grade. Masss is offered daily at 1130. Last week, during the consecration the priest would invite everyone to the Alter. I had been raised that this is wrong and I have only seen it one other time at a local Catholic College.

I had refused to go up until FJ (the priest in charge of the program) told me I had to so I wasn’t challenging the priest’s authority in front of the kids. The only reason I went up then was because he was put in charge of me by the Director of Seminarians who was put in charge of me by Archbishop, so I though it would be being disobedient to my Bishop had I not gone up after being told to by FJ.

So:

1. Was the priest wrong in inviting us to the Alter or is this permissible. I understand that the Sacrament was still valid but was it celebrated licitly.

and

1. If the priest was in the wrong, was I in the right to go up as FJ had ordered me.

 

[nightwalker]

You cannot be held by obedience to do that which is wrong.

EWTN in addressing this cites a notice from CDW&DS: “During the liturgy of the Eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers.” [Notitiæ 17 (1981) 61]

You are clearly correct in not going up to the altar. You should talk to the priest privately, and express your concern to the Director of Seminarians (this could even be in vague terms: obedience vs doing what is right).

 

[benedictgal]

You cannot be held by obedience to do that which is wrong.

EWTN in addressing this cites a notice from CDW&DS: “During the liturgy of the Eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers.” [Notitiæ 17 (1981) 61]

You are clearly correct in not going up to the altar. You should talk to the priest privately, and express your concern to the Director of Seminarians (this could even be in vague terms: obedience vs doing what is right).

LifeTeen got into some serious trouble with this one. The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments told LT that they needed to cease and desist this iliict practice.

 

[buffalo]

I am teaching a summer program called Totus Tuus. It is for kids1-8th grade. Masss is offered daily at 1130. Last week, during the consecration the priest would invite everyone to the Alter. I had been raised that this is wrong and I have only seen it one other time at a local Catholic College.

I had refused to go up until FJ (the priest in charge of the program) told me I had to so I wasn’t challenging the priest’s authority in front of the kids. The only reason I went up then was because he was put in charge of me by the Director of Seminarians who was put in charge of me by Archbishop, so I though it would be being disobedient to my Bishop had I not gone up after being told to by FJ.

So:

1. Was the priest wrong in inviting us to the Alter or is this permissible. I understand that the Sacrament was still valid but was it celebrated licitly.

and

1. If the priest was in the wrong, was I in the right to go up as FJ had ordered me.

It always amazes me that certain Priests expect obedience when they themselves are being disobedient.

 

[Colin_Adian]

It always amazes me that certain Priests expect obedience when they themselves are being disobedient.

It should be noted that FJ was not the one doing this, but he said I should not undermine the priest, he even said he disagreed.

Edit: Could I get a copy of the statement to LT, condemning the practice.

 

[agapewolf]

LifeTeen got into some serious trouble with this one. The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments told LT that they needed to cease and desist this iliict practice.

Why don’t we just link to the past 10 threads I have had to correct this statement. THey did not get into serious trouble.

It was a mutual agreement to stop the practice.

 

[em3boone]

LifeTeen got into some serious trouble with this one. The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments told LT that they needed to cease and desist this iliict practice.

When I can’t make it to my normal parish we attend the Lifeteen Mass at another Parish and the priests have the highschoolers come up to the alter, I never do, should I say something to the priests about this? And are they allowed to say that “the Mass never ends thing”

 

[Colin_Adian]

Why don’t we just link to the past 10 threads I have had to correct this statement. THey did not get into serious trouble.

It was a mutual agreement to stop the practice.

From what I hear (which is not much) on the subject they were told to stop and did so rather than suffer consequences.

 

[agapewolf]

When I can’t make it to my normal parish we attend the Lifeteen Mass at another Parish and the priests have the highschoolers come up to the alter, I never do, should I say something to the priests about this? And are they allowed to say that “the Mass never ends thing”

Those are 2 practices that should have stopped about 4 years ago, when the new GIRM was put into practice. This parish is giving LT a bad name.

There are other threads on here about the proper way to go about stopping liturgical abuse. It seems that many think that the best thing to do first is to approach the priest in a non-threatening way.

 

[agapewolf]

From what I hear (which is not much) on the subject they were told to stop and did so rather than suffer consequences.

This is untrue. They were offered an indult by Cardinal Arinze, and LT turned it down.

 

[John_Lilburne]

You cannot be held by obedience to do that which is wrong.

EWTN in addressing this cites a notice from CDW&DS: “During the liturgy of the Eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers.” [Notitiæ 17 (1981) 61] …

An interesting quote. But I have difficulty accepting it as the current rule. From the 2002 GIRM approved for the USA:
“195. … Then the lector takes his own place in the sanctuary with the other ministers.”
So clearly the lector should be in the sanctuary, not just the altar servers.

 

[rpp]

An interesting quote. But I have difficulty accepting it as the current rule. From the 2002 GIRM approved for the USA:
“195. … Then the lector takes his own place in the sanctuary with the other ministers.”
So clearly the lector should be in the sanctuary, not just the altar servers.

Being in the sanctuary is different than being around the altar.

 

[dconklin]

Is gathering the same as around? I was at a Sat Eve mass and the church was changing their mass times from the ‘summer’ schedule to the ‘winter’ schedule and I am guessing they did not do a good job of getting the word out because there was no more than 20 of us in this large church. The celebrant called us all to the front of the alter at the foot of the steps for the concecration. As a religious educator, I am all for the kids getting a better view.

 

[benedictgal]

Why don’t we just link to the past 10 threads I have had to correct this statement. THey did not get into serious trouble.

It was a mutual agreement to stop the practice.

Apparently, that was not the case according to this article:

Life Teen’s Liturgical Reform
Life Teen, the Phoenix-based Catholic youth organization, announced in July that it will cease its idiosyncratic liturgical practices. Monsignor Dale Fushek, Life Teen’s founder and former Vicar General under Bishop Thomas O’Brien, sent a letter July 2, saying that he confirms “our adherence to the new GIRM, and as always, our obedience to our own local Bishops”.

The letter asked that “all parishes that implement the LIFE TEEN model” make these changes. The teens will no longer surround the altar during the Eucharistic prayer; they will cease saying, “The Mass never ends, it must be lived”, at the end of Mass; the rock-party atmosphere before Mass will be toned down to “make sure there is a period of silence to begin the liturgical celebration”; and they will “make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo or chair”.

Unfortunately, the attitude of some LifeTeen proponents eerily mirrors that of the Neocatechumenals who claimed that their form of the Mass was proper until Pope Benedict XVI stepped in and told them otherwise.

Priests are not allowed to make idiosyncratic changes to the Mass just to suit their personal styles and needs. Redemptionis Sacramentum is very clear as to what constitutes legitimate creativity. Having kids gather around the altar or receive Holy Communion while seated in a banquet style setting (as was the case with the Neocats) is ilicit and an abuse.

 

[benedictgal]

Is gathering the same as around? I was at a Sat Eve mass and the church was changing their mass times from the ‘summer’ schedule to the ‘winter’ schedule and I am guessing they did not do a good job of getting the word out because there was no more than 20 of us in this large church. The celebrant called us all to the front of the alter at the foot of the steps for the concecration. As a religious educator, I am all for the kids getting a better view.

However, it’s not all about getting a “better view.” The children need to be taught that transubstantiation occurs at a much deeper level. It’s not something that you can see, although, when the Sacred Host is elevated, it is our moment to adore.

The other problem is that, as referenced in my previous post, the celebrant doesn’t have the right to tinker around with the rubrics as he pleases. Even though you gathered at the foot of the altar, your place is where the rest of the congregation normally is: the pews.

 

[agapewolf]

That article you just quoted does not counterpoint what I am saying. The article is also a biased reporting of how it happened, as I have had to correct you multiple times before.

How it came about is different than the [edited] statements you made.

[Edited]

 

[japhy]

EWTN in addressing this cites a notice from CDW&DS: “During the liturgy of the Eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers.” [Notitiæ 17 (1981) 61]

An interesting quote. But I have difficulty accepting it as the current rule. From the 2002 GIRM approved for the USA:
“195. … Then the lector takes his own place in the sanctuary with the other ministers.”
So clearly the lector should be in the sanctuary, not just the altar servers.

I would expect GIRM 195 is speaking in that case of an instituted lector. I say this because the instituted acolyte and instituted lector are mentioned together in nn. 98-99, after which the “substitutes” for them are mentioned (nn. 100-101). The duties of the instituted ministries are described in nn. 187-193 (for the acolyte) and in nn. 194-198 (for the lector). Fr. McNamara thinks language of the GIRM describing the substitution of another layperson for the instituted lector does not necessarily imply that all the duties of the instituted lector are included. Which of those duties are included is probably up to the pastor (or bishop?). Most non-instituted lectors I know carry the Book of the Gospels in the procession, but do not sit in the sanctuary.

Even if I’m wrong, though, the presence of others at the altar during the liturgy of the Eucharist is by no means envisaged by the GIRM, even if others are located in the general sanctuary.

 

[rpp]

That article you just quoted does not counterpoint what I am saying. The article is also a biased reporting of how it happened, as I have had to correct you multiple times before.

How it came about is different than the [edited] statements you made.

[edited].

[edited] If you want to make such an accusation, you will have to back it up with citations and actual facts. [edited]

Back up what you say or back off. There is no third choice.

 

[rpp]

Apparently, that was not the case according to this article:

Unfortunately, the attitude of some LifeTeen proponents eerily mirrors that of the Neocatechumenals who claimed that their form of the Mass was proper until Pope Benedict XVI stepped in and told them otherwise.

Priests are not allowed to make idiosyncratic changes to the Mass just to suit their personal styles and needs. Redemptionis Sacramentum is very clear as to what constitutes legitimate creativity. Having kids gather around the altar or receive Holy Communion while seated in a banquet style setting (as was the case with the Neocats) is ilicit and an abuse.

Can you provide a link to these articles?

 

[agapewolf]

First, slander is spoken word, libel is written.

Accusing someone, who has always proved to be a reliable source, of slander (libel) is very serious. If you want to make such an accusation, you will have to back it up with citations and actual facts. Unfounded assertions such as this can, without support, themselves be libelous.

Back up what you say or back off. There is no third choice.

I have already in many threads in the past. I’m tired of it.