Gatherings hosted by engaged couple

[otjm]

He never condoned their sins, either - and as I recall, the sinners he ate with were already repenting of their sins, at the time. I don’t recall any time where he socialized with people who were still in their sins, or who weren’t open to the idea of repenting.

This idea of “nice Jesus” keeping quiet in the corner and grinning at everyone while they congratulate themselves on their sins - I just don’t find it in the Bible at all.

Perhaps you should stop reading into the text of the Bible what it doesn’t say. The woman caught in adultery was just that - just caught. He told her he would not condemn her, and told her to stop. Nothing was said that she had stopped or would stop. The woman at the well was living with someone who was not her husband; Christ didn’t even tell her to stop that. He simply pointed out the facts.

 

[jmcrae]

Perhaps you should stop reading into the text of the Bible what it doesn’t say. The woman caught in adultery was just that - just caught.

Jesus wasn’t socializing with her. They had asked him to judge her.

 

[litllulu]

They’re jumping the gun a little, well at least they’re getting married eventualy. Better then some couples these days I suppose.

But as much as you feel uncomfortable, it’s your boyfriend’s family. You cannot go if you wish, just make sure you don’t make him feel guilty for it.

That is good advice! It is his sister, don’t put anamosity between sibblings, it will bit you in the butt later. It will be especially difficult at the wedding and parties for that. Remember they will be brother and sister forever, don’t make any scenes!

 

[Fidelia]

Thank you for the last few posts. I don’t have disdain towards the couple, I am just not comfortable being present in the residence they are currently sharing. I wasn’t even comfortablr on new years eve, which wasn;t even at their place because it wasn’t ready yet, and didn’t want to hear about their mattress they bought, and don’t want to see their bedroom, etc. I like his sister very much. And I am not trying to make myself out to be better than them. I know it is impossible -and also very hypocritical- to stay away from all sinners. It is just that, what they are doing is not even necessary, let alone proper. And I will likely not be going tomorrow, because I wish to cook something at home with my family, and it wil just be us, we aren’t having anyone over. My boyfriend will probably come over in the evening after he is at his sister’s a couple of hours. I am asking for in general though. Thanks again for the posts. i am open to more opinions. What about this summer, and anything that might come up? I feel caught. I don’t want to come across as not wanting anything to do with them, but I don’t want to be in that environment.

 

[Fidelia]

That is good advice! It is his sister, don’t put anamosity between sibblings, it will bit you in the butt later. It will be especially difficult at the wedding and parties for that. Remember they will be brother and sister forever, don’t make any scenes!

I know. I am not trying to make him feel guilty, but I am trying to explain to him the difference between asking to take turns with whose family we go to, and asing me to go somewhere where circumstances are against my (should be our) beliefs and feel unsettled.

eta- don’t even get me started on the wedding they are planning. that is for another thread. in fact, it is another thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=137271

 

[otjm]

Jesus wasn’t socializing with her. They had asked him to judge her.

And I don’t recall saying that He was socializing with her.

Are you just trying to be argumentative, or do you really miss the point?

I don’t see anywhere in the Gospels that Christ commands us to go around attempting to convict anyone and everyone else of their sin, until we have dealt with our own.

In the real world, the OP is going to meet and have to deal with many sinners. That, if life is any indicator, may include couples living together without marriage, active homosexuals, people who use birth control, people who support abortions and those who have had one or assisted in having one, people who have committed adultery; the list goes on and on.

She doesn’t want to go over to a party hosted by someone who has the potential to be her in-law. If she doesn’t want to start a family war before it becomes part of her family, she is either going to have to get over her attitude and deal with this individual, or get a different boyfriend.

But the problem is not going to go away; she will be dealing with sinners, some of them intentional sinners, for the rest of her life, if for no other reason than that Paul tells us all are sinners.

Jesus taught us to hate the sin and love the sinner. She wants to avoid the sinner. I am suggesting she needs to learn what Jesus commands, and learn how to love the sinner. Going at the situation with an attitude of “I don’t want to be around you, in spite of the fact that you are my boyfriend’s relative, because you are a sinner” is not, I submit, the attitude Jesus taught.

Whether or not he was socializing with the woman caught in adultery.

 

[Fidelia]

In the real world, the OP is going to meet and have to deal with many sinners. That, if life is any indicator, may include couples living together without marriage, active homosexuals, people who use birth control, people who support abortions and those who have had one or assisted in having one, people who have committed adultery; the list goes on and on.

She doesn’t want to go over to a party hosted by someone who has the potential to be her in-law. If she doesn’t want to start a family war before it becomes part of her family, she is either going to have to get over her attitude and deal with this individual, or get a different boyfriend.
**that is true. **

But the problem is not going to go away; she will be dealing with sinners, some of them intentional sinners, for the rest of her life, if for no other reason than that Paul tells us all are sinners.

Jesus taught us to hate the sin and love the sinner. She wants to avoid the sinner. I am suggesting she needs to learn what Jesus commands, and learn how to love the sinner. Going at the situation with an attitude of “I don’t want to be around you, in spite of the fact that you are my boyfriend’s relative, because you are a sinner” is not, I submit, the attitude Jesus taught.

Whether or not he was socializing with the woman caught in adultery.

I agree with love the sinner hate the sin. I just don’t honestly have interest in going ot their place, her showing me around, “here’s our bedroom”, etc.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with love the sinner hate the sin. I just don’t honestly have interest in going ot their place, her showing me around, “here’s our bedroom”, etc.

I don’t blame you, and I don’t think that Jesus would require it of you.

 

[jmcrae]

And I don’t recall saying that He was socializing with her.

Are you just trying to be argumentative, or do you really miss the point?

You’re the one who seems to be missing the point.

We were talking about “What would Jesus do,” if invited to socialize with a man and woman, not married, who are living together and showing off their new bed.

My point was that Jesus never went over for supper with people who had not already taken some steps towards repentance (Matthew, Zacchaeus, the unknown woman who poured the jar of perfume on his feet).

 

[otjm]

You’re the one who seems to be missing the point.

We were talking about “What would Jesus do,” if invited to socialize with a man and woman, not married, who are living together and showing off their new bed.

My point was that Jesus never went over for supper with people who had not already taken some steps towards repentance (Matthew, Zacchaeus, the unknown woman who poured the jar of perfume on his feet).

Ah. So now you know what the mental status is concerning the couple in question. Amazing.

Who else’s mind are you reading?

 

[jmcrae]

Ah. So now you know what the mental status is concerning the couple in question. Amazing.

What does “mental status” have to do with it? “Repentance” is an action that you do - the action of “turning away” from a bad course of action - it’s not a thought that you think, nor a feeling that you have.

If they are thinking that they would like to stop living together as if they were married, or if they are feeling sorry that they do this, all well and good, but of no use if they don’t follow through with actions that cause them to be removed from the state of sin.

When Matthew repented, he didn’t continue to sit at the tax collector’s desk and think about how nice it would be to be like Jesus - he got up, left everything behind, and followed Jesus.

When Zacchaeus repented, he didn’t stay up in that tree - he came down and distributed half of his substance to the poor.

 

[Fidelia]

What does “mental status” have to do with it? “Repentance” is an action that you do - the action of “turning away” from a bad course of action - it’s not a thought that you think, nor a feeling that you have.

If they are thinking that they would like to stop living together as if they were married, or if they are feeling sorry that they do this, all well and good, but of no use if they don’t follow through with actions that cause them to be removed from the state of sin.

well, they clearly see nothing wrong with what they are doing, because they are doing it when there was no necessity for them to in the first place. I can’t exactly ask them how they feel about what they are doing, and it would be pointless to anyway, because i can see that they see nothing wrong with it, because they did move in together when they both did not have to, and they are presuming to host gatherings as a married couple would. It is ridiculous and presumptuous.

 

[otjm]

What does “mental status” have to do with it? “Repentance” is an action that you do - the action of “turning away” from a bad course of action - it’s not a thought that you think, nor a feeling that you have.

If they are thinking that they would like to stop living together as if they were married, or if they are feeling sorry that they do this, all well and good, but of no use if they don’t follow through with actions that cause them to be removed from the state of sin.

When Matthew repented, he didn’t continue to sit at the tax collector’s desk and think about how nice it would be to be like Jesus - he got up, left everything behind, and followed Jesus.

When Zacchaeus repented, he didn’t stay up in that tree - he came down and distributed half of his substance to the poor.

Actually, mental status has everything to do with it, as you have seen fit to determine that they are not only in objective sin, but also know it. Your references are to people in the Gospels are irrelevant to the issue at hand, as the couple sees nothing wrong with what they are doing, just as most people who have not been taught moral rightness and wrongness about sexual activity continue to indulge in objectively immoral behavior. She wants to avoid these people because they are living together. Were they only casual friends of her boyfriend that would be much easier.

But it is a nice Friday afternoon, and I see no reason to dispute with someone who takes your approach.

 

[jmcrae]

She wants to avoid these people because they are living together.

How would her associating with them (but without “judging them” in any way) help either her or them? I don’t see how it’s “evangelism” to simply pretend that it’s all okay?

 

[otjm]

How would her associating with them (but without “judging them” in any way) help either her or them? I don’t see how it’s “evangelism” to simply pretend that it’s all okay?

Did someone say something about pretending it is ok? I must have missed the post.

Christ said to hate the sin and love the sinner. Loving the sinner does not now and never has meant “pretending it is ok”. It can very well mean not acting in a way that is seen as judgemental.

Most people see nothing wrong at all with living together; in fact, all too many see it as very normal. The OP is in a dating situation which is going to bering her into frequent contact wtih this couple. Associating with them is not simply optional behavior; one of them is immdiate family to her boyfriend. It is not just an issue of the St. Patrick’s Day party; it is going to be an on-going issue.

Dealing with an issue such as this takes a bit of maturity and wisdom if one expects to have any real impact.

Evangelization is a bit more than standing there thumping a Bible and shouting that all sinners are going to hell, and they are lead by fornicators, homosexuals, etc.

As I said in previous posts, if she wants to continue dating this guy, she will need to deal with this issue in some way other than avoiding any gathering they are in, and particular any event they host.
Taht is, unless she wants to start a family war, and be seen as totally irrelevant and a prig. There is nothing like destroying any possiblity to do good even before the opportunity presents itself.

 

[jmcrae]

Did someone say something about pretending it is ok? I must have missed the post.

Christ said to hate the sin and love the sinner. Loving the sinner does not now and never has meant “pretending it is ok”. It can very well mean not acting in a way that is seen as judgemental.

Fair enough. How does one point out in a “non-judgemental” way that one’s host and hostess are committing a sin?

Evangelization is a bit more than standing there thumping a Bible and shouting that all sinners are going to hell, and they are lead by fornicators, homosexuals, etc.

See? As soon as even one word is spoken, it’s just assumed that she’s a raving fundamentalist, and that she’s going to rant and rave all night long.

I don’t blame her for not wanting to go to this thing, if that’s what people are going to think of her no matter what she actually says.

All they will remember is their own perception - she could say the kindest, most gentle thing, but afterwards everyone will say that she ranted and raved, waved her Bible around, and condemned everyone to Hell.

 

[otjm]

Fair enough. How does one point out in a “non-judgemental” way that one’s host and hostess are committing a sin?

I take it you have had very little experience with the issue. How would you take to someone coming over to you and telling you, without you asking, how you should deal with whatever sin is most troublesome in your life? I would hazard a guess you might just tell them to buzz off.

I would also hazard a guess that if you asked them, and they answered in a clear, compassionate way, you would listen, and if they came off harsh and judgemental, you would turn a deaf ear.

One very clear way to witness is to not move in with her boyfriend; given his siter already ahs, there is certainly a chance she may bring it up in conversation. And if one needs to know how to respond, there is a lot of good - n, excellent - advise in Proverbs. Information from Jason Evert’s website would also be helpful.

See? As soon as even one word is spoken, it’s just assumed that she’s a raving fundamentalist, and that she’s going to rant and rave all night long.

I don’t blame her for not wanting to go to this thing, if that’s what people are going to think of her no matter what she actually says.

All they will remember is their own perception - she could say the kindest, most gentle thing, but afterwards everyone will say that she ranted and raved, waved her Bible around, and condemned everyone to Hell.

See the above. First rule is to keep your mouth shut if your opinion is not asked; and in most circumstances it isn’t.

Second rule is to live your life in a way that it is bringing your light to the hilltop, rather than under a bushel basket. Living a life of chastity, no matter what your station in life, does get noticed and does provide opportunities to share.

Third rule - remember to remove the log in your own eye before taking out the splinter in your neighbor’s. Which solves the problem of going around telling people they are living in sin.

Part of your issue seems to be that you are just brimming over with advice as to how other people should live their lives. Most people don’t want someone coming and telling them.

There are a multitude of approaches that are indirect. And most advice, if not asked for, is not welcome.

How shoudl she act? She should keep her opinion to herself, enjoy the party, and not let anyone know what she thinks unless 1) it is asked for and 2) they have a right to know, and 3) she can do it in a charitible way.

Oh - right to know. Anyone else at the party asking her what her opinion is of them living together gets no opinion, as that is gossip.

 

[jmcrae]

I take it you have had very little experience with the issue. How would you take to someone coming over to you and telling you, without you asking, how you should deal with whatever sin is most troublesome in your life? I would hazard a guess you might just tell them to buzz off.

I just might, that’s true.

I would also hazard a guess that if you asked them, and they answered in a clear, compassionate way, you would listen, and if they came off harsh and judgemental, you would turn a deaf ear.

No one here is asking her to come off harsh and judgemental.

First rule is to keep your mouth shut if your opinion is not asked; and in most circumstances it isn’t.

Second rule is to live your life in a way that it is bringing your light to the hilltop, rather than under a bushel basket. Living a life of chastity, no matter what your station in life, does get noticed and does provide opportunities to share.

Third rule - remember to remove the log in your own eye before taking out the splinter in your neighbor’s. Which solves the problem of going around telling people they are living in sin.

Part of your issue seems to be that you are just brimming over with advice as to how other people should live their lives. Most people don’t want someone coming and telling them.

Don’t judge me - you have absolutely no idea who I am, where I come from, or how I handle social situations. You are telling me that I can’t even think that these people are doing anything wrong, but as soon as I try to help someone who has asked for help, I get pounced on for being “judgemental,” because I’m telling this person (who asked for advice) that she doesn’t have to associate with people who make her uncomfortable.

There are a multitude of approaches that are indirect. And most advice, if not asked for, is not welcome.

How shoudl she act? She should keep her opinion to herself, enjoy the party, and not let anyone know what she thinks unless 1) it is asked for and 2) they have a right to know, and 3) she can do it in a charitible way.

Oh - right to know. Anyone else at the party asking her what her opinion is of them living together gets no opinion, as that is gossip.

And how is this different than “pretend everything is okay?”

Like I said before, if it’s an uncomfortable situation for her, she is not required to attend.

 

[otjm]

You are telling me that I can’t even think that these people are doing anything wrong, but as soon as I try to help someone who has asked for help, I get pounced on for being “judgemental,” because I’m telling this person (who asked for advice) that she doesn’t have to associate with people who make her uncomfortable.

Roll your eyes a little less and read a little more. The whole point of this is that she does have to associate with them if they are his family, or risk a family fight for as long as she has anything to do with him.

And how is this different than “pretend everything is okay?”

If you cant distinguish between the two, any more explanation won’t do much good. re-read the posts above. You seem to think that there are two alternatives - poking your nose in where it has not been asked or pretending that everything is ok.

Like I said before, if it’s an uncomfortable situation for her, she is not required to attend.

And like I said, if she is serious about this guy she is dating, that is not an option.

 

[jmcrae]

If you cant distinguish between the two, any more explanation won’t do much good. re-read the posts above. You seem to think that there are two alternatives - poking your nose in where it has not been asked or pretending that everything is ok.

It reminds me of the character in one of C. S. Lewis’ books who thought he was evangelizing his worldly neighbors by laughing at their dirty jokes, because he was being “accepting” and “tolerant,” and thus, a model of Christian virtue.