Gay agenda indoctrinating young children

[SpiritMeadow]

You can’t be “converted” into being gay any more than you can be “converted” into being hetrosexual. I have asked heterosexuals over and over just how they chose their sexuality and I have yet to find anyone who can tell me how their childhood, their educational experience or any heterosexual indoctrination made them heterosexual.

Homosexuals are hated simply because they exist. I have had hateful things said to me and I have lived chaste my entire life. I’m entirely in support of anything that would create an understanding and supportive environment for everyone.

Agreed, which is why I question whether anybody is trying to “indoctrinate” children into homosexuality. It is as you say something you are born to. I’ve never known a homosexual who was “converted,” and I don’t for one minute believe that it is a matter of choice. If someone is trying to indoctrinate children to a homosexual lifestyle then I must assume they are not homosexual and have some other agenda. Homosexuals of course know better.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Then what is wrong with being understanding and supportive? If you don’t hate us for who we are, why would being understanding and accepting of us as human beings be a problem?

I understand that it is difficult to stand in the shoes of someone that lives such a different reality, but think about what life is like for the Catholic homosexual. We’re called “disordered”, we’re called “abnormal”. We can’t have a companion, we can’t have children. We don’t fit in with most homosexuals, and heterosexuals don’t really want us around either. Although I never disclosed my orientation in my former parish to anyone other than my Confessor, the gossip and rumors drove me away just the same. An over 40 single female who doesn’t wear dresses is like a target to some people.

Part of the reason I keep posting on these threads is to bring some understanding of the experiences that Catholic homosexuals have to those who may not know anyone in RL who lives this way. Maybe if more people will allow themselves to be understanding and supportive, there won’t be a need to have programs in schools teaching kids how not to hate us.

My heart really does go out to you. I don’t know how you reconcile it all. If you believe that God created you, then I don’t know how you accept that God did so with all these restrictions that don’t apply to others. I think it’s horrific that you feel you cannot have a relationship, marry, have children etc. It seems to relate to no God that I understand.

When one is born into a imposed life, I can find no way to see God as loving and judicial. You are a better woman than I certainly. Most homosexuals as you know, either ignore the Church on this, or move to a faith tradition that is more understanding. I wish you well, I have the utmost respect for you and your decision. I hope you have found a parish that is more open minded than you have found so far. They are out there to be sure. Many here have posted of parishes wherein priests are deeply loving and compassionate and they lead a congregation that increasingly becomes the same.

My 2nd cousin whose husband died a couple of years ago, became Catholic in her early 70’s. Why? Because when he was dying her daughter’s (who was Catholic) priest came to visit daily and allowed a Catholic mass to be said at his death. My cousins gratitude at this Church and priest was overwhelming. She turned Catholic, and is a alter server today, and offers her help at many parish activities. Such is the teaching of Christ, and the wonders that can be accomplished when love is the motivating force rather than judgmentalism.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I know a couple of homosexuals who tried to be “normal”. They got married and even had kids, but they didn’t do it because they were attracted to the opposite sex, they did it because they wanted to be like everyone else. Those kind of relationships aren’t fair to anyone involved. It’s not a marriage or a family based on love, it’s based on societal pressure. The only “choice” involved is about living like everyone else or living alone. It’s tempting, I’ll admit it-but it’s not honest. I came very close in college to getting into that kind of relationship, but I liked the guy too much as a friend to do that. I couldn’t say that I loved him that way because I really didn’t. He was a great guy and deserved better.

Yes, I’ve seen this several times myself. I’ve always known a lot of homosexuals, and I have no idea why, but I worked in law, and there were plenty of gay attorneys and court personnel for some reason. Some did make the attempt to be “straight” but most found it not effective. I know there are a small percentage who “change” back, but frankly, I think they just hate so badly what they are that they pretend, even to themselves.

Many people never “come out” because of fear. That is so terribly sad, and I agree, pretending with other people’s lives is distinctly not far.

 

[ribozyme]

Yes, I’ve seen this several times myself. I’ve always known a lot of homosexuals, and I have no idea why, but I worked in law, and there were plenty of gay attorneys and court personnel for some reason. Some did make the attempt to be “straight” but most found it not effective. I know there are a small percentage who “change” back, but frankly, I think they just hate so badly what they are that they pretend, even to themselves.

Many people never “come out” because of fear. That is so terribly sad, and I agree, pretending with other people’s lives is distinctly not far.

I do not know what the “gay agenda” is, but what is the “straight agenda”?

 

[MCL]

Again, the same question continues to remain unanswered. How did the heterosexuals among us become that way? What environmental, educational or parental factors create the heterosexual orientation and determine how they will live their lives?

Since I have never received an answer to this, I must assume that heterosexuals were created the same way I was and had no more control over it than I did.

We are influenced by many factors. One of which is cultural. Attractions and desires are primarily determined by culture. In other cultures, women with bones in their noses are considered attractive yet in other cultures, fair-skin is considered attractive and desirable. In primitive cultures, same-sex attraction is considered taboo and wouldn’t even enter in to the equation.

So, you are correct in that you didn’t make a conscious choice.

You were unconsciously molded by your culture just as heterosexuals are unconsciously molded by their culture.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Yes, it means, at a minimum, not to act on them (i.e. chastity). Personally, I think it is asking too much of some people - those with what the Church refers to as “deep-seated” desires - to change those desires to being properly ordered. For others, it is possible.

Understand though, chastity is obviously not an easy thing for anyone. Just look at our society! Since anyone who does/can not marry is called to celibacy, I would guess that is an even bigger hurdle. There are many priests/religious who would tell you it is no cakewalk; however, many, many of them control their sexual desires successfully.

My problem with the “I’m born this way” statement is that people set homosexual desires as God-given - something to be embraced and even celebrated. Is that really the case? Does God give us our disordered desires to hate, kill, covet, etc.? Or, is that part of our fallen nature?

While I would agree to a limited extent that everyone has a greater or lesser degree of these various desires, I do not agree that homosexuality is something that can be “overcome” in the great majority of cases. Having read all your posts it seems to me that you have created a convenvient spectrum to get around the uncomfortable position that God created people with homosexual orientations. Thus, to you, all but a few “hard” core diordered persons can change if they really want to. This avoids the reality lived by most homosexuals that they were that way from their earliest recollection. And you can avoid having to deal with how a loving God creates humans who by Church definition must submit to be celibate and alone their entire lives and without the normal free will of the rest of us to marry, or not as we choose… That is why I submit, it is always of such interest on this forum whenever someone finds some “scientific” paper that suggests that homosexuality is not genetics driven.

 

[rlg94086]

While I would agree to a limited extent that everyone has a greater or lesser degree of these various desires, I do not agree that homosexuality is something that can be “overcome” in the great majority of cases. Having read all your posts it seems to me that you have created a convenvient spectrum to get around the uncomfortable position that God created people with homosexual orientations. Thus, to you, all but a few “hard” core diordered persons can change if they really want to. This avoids the reality lived by most homosexuals that they were that way from their earliest recollection. And you can avoid having to deal with how a loving God creates humans who by Church definition must submit to be celibate and alone their entire lives and without the normal free will of the rest of us to marry, or not as we choose… That is why I submit, it is always of such interest on this forum whenever someone finds some “scientific” paper that suggests that homosexuality is not genetics driven.

Yes, I understand that we differ with regards to what the Church teaches. However, I did not “create a convenient spectrum.” You are insinuating some sort of calculated anti-gay agenda on my part. I am just conveying what I believe, based on my interactions with friends/co-workers/neighbors/family members who identify themselves as gay/lesbian/bi-sexual/etc. (I haven’t personally known anyone who is transsexual and/or intersexed, so I have to rely on more limited data in these cases). I think the spectrum of desires we have are also influenced by our environment, which is why I don’t think that it is a simple matter of being “born gay” or “choosing to be gay.” It is a combination of desires, disordered though they are, combined with environment - upbringing, society, etc.

I am also not trying to " avoid having to deal with how a loving God creates humans who by Church definition must submit to be celibate and alone their entire lives and without the normal free will of the rest of us to marry, or not as we choose." I have clearly stated that I don’t believe that disordered desires are something our loving God gives us - it is part of our fallen nature. He requires us all to live a chaste life, not to murder, not to steal, not to covet. All of the desires desires contrary to “Christian perfection” are part of our fallen nature. With grace from the Holy Spirit, we can indeed “approach Christian perfection” as the Catechism says.

While we don’t agree, I would like to have civil discussion with you SpiritMeadow. In the past, it has devolved into nastiness. Let’s not start off on the wrong foot again by making claims that the other is being hateful by following Church teaching and trying to come to grips with how to live their lives in line with God’s design.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Now, the difficulty of overcoming such a desire can vary within individuals - thus my contention, which you haven’t said “boo” about, that there is a spectrum of such desires. The proper ordering of desire is heterosexual. With proper upbringing, societal norms, etcetera, indeed there are some who go through a transitory period of “experimentation” but end up “heterosexual.”

I did say “boo” about this pages ago-I said that I had not experienced people who were “on a spectrum”. I know gay people, I know straight people. I know a couple of bisexuals. I don’t know anyone personally who is in some place in the middle. I didn’t say that I discounted the theory, only that I have not experienced such a spectrum in my experience.

My heart really does go out to you. I don’t know how you reconcile it all. If you believe that God created you, then I don’t know how you accept that God did so with all these restrictions that don’t apply to others. I think it’s horrific that you feel you cannot have a relationship, marry, have children etc. It seems to relate to no God that I understand.

When one is born into a imposed life, I can find no way to see God as loving and judicial. You are a better woman than I certainly. Most homosexuals as you know, either ignore the Church on this, or move to a faith tradition that is more understanding. I wish you well, I have the utmost respect for you and your decision. I hope you have found a parish that is more open minded than you have found so far. They are out there to be sure. Many here have posted of parishes wherein priests are deeply loving and compassionate and they lead a congregation that increasingly becomes the same.

That is the reason I started posting here-I wanted people on this forum to get to know people like me. There are more of us than you all know and while we are not asking for approval of any sinful action only for understanding of our situation. Calling us disordered or mentally ill is hurtful, and unless you have caught one of us in the act, you cannot condemn us to hell by our very existence.

Many of my friends in the gay community wonder why I stay in the Church as well. It’s simple-I truly believe that the Church is the only way to salvation, and no matter how strict the demands I risk my eternal soul by leaving.

And yes, I have found an understanding parish-a traditional Chapel. It would seem incongruous that a gay person would find more compassion in a more conservative parish, but it really has been my experience.

 

[Michael_Neal]

I am understanding and hold no hostile feeling towards people who are gay. We all have our crosses in life.

The only thing that bothers me is the expectation that some gay people have that we must not only tolerate and accept them as people but we must also accept the sin, this I can not and will not do.

 

[graceandglory]

massresistance.org/media/video/brainwashing.html

These videos show the indoctrination of young children in a public school in Massachusetts.
**
Remember these kids are seven to ten years old for gosh sakes.

This is getting out of hand, seriously.** Have a watch

From the website:
It’s Elementary is meant to be a training video for homosexual activist teachers across the country.

Here is what we can do to change this:

Teachers are not held accountable for the videos or books they select on their own to fill in extra time in classes. In Washington State where I live, the days ARE packed with required subjects, BUT there is time leftover.

I am a substitute in the public schools. This year I have been in public classrooms K-12, and there ARE obvious homosexual activist teachers. I don’t have to meet them, but when I am subbing for one and rifling through their desk looking for the hall pass, it’s gross what I find. I have found gay club advertisements on their classroom printers, posters by GLB on their walls, and "business cards in their desks, that they can pass to students who they think might have “tendencies.” They have a number for a homosexual teen hotline. I saw a stack of about 30 of these business cards.

The homosexual teachers are evangelists for their cause!

How to change that? By legislating that their book and movie choices be submitted to administration, that’s how. That is how we can change things. Begin at the school level. Ask the administration. There are MANY Christians in the public schools who don’t want students to be indoctrinated by gay teachers. We can make a difference by asking for lesson plans to be reviewed by Principals, and books and videos to be approved before showing.

 

[graceandglory]

Calling us disordered or mentally ill is hurtful, and **unless you have caught one of us in the act, you cannot condemn us to hell by our very existence. **
.

You are right in that a a person with homosexual desires is no more disordered than a heterosexual person. The person is not the disorder. It is the homosexual act that is disordered. You said it best, unless you act on your desires, and commit the sin of a homosexual act, you will not be condemned.

Those with homosexual tendencies are called to chastity in thought and in deed, just like those who are heterosexual.
In thought, and in deed.

There are many holy people who would admit they have homosexual tendencies, who are chaste, who have chosen to live celibate lives. Someday one of them might become a saint.

 

[Annn]

Someday one of them might become a saint.

Perhaps one of them already has!

 

[Fitswimmer]

You are right in that a a person with homosexual desires is no more disordered than a heterosexual person. The person is not the disorder. It is the homosexual act that is disordered. You said it best, unless you act on your desires, and commit the sin of a homosexual act, you will not be condemned.

Those with homosexual tendencies are called to chastity in thought and in deed, just like those who are heterosexual.
In thought, and in deed.

There are many holy people who would admit they have homosexual tendencies, who are chaste, who have chosen to live celibate lives. Someday one of them might become a saint.

Can you imagine the reaction of the Catholic population if an open homosexual was ever honored in ANY way by the Church?

I think we’d all settle for not being called disordered or mentally ill.

 

[Michael_Neal]

The church says it is disordered, you will have to live with the Church’s position on this.

The Church will NEVER change its position on this. It’s can’t, it is not only a sin directly mentioned by the bible, the teaching on this issue is part of the sacred tradition of the Church. Sacred tradition is considered infallible and not reversible. Any change to this position would not be valid.

If for some reason the Church did reverse it’s position it would be the beginning of the end for it since every other teaching would then be meaningless. However, we believe the Holy Spirit will prevent this from happening.

Someone who is an open unrepentant homosexual will never be honored by the Church as it goes against it teachings. Someone who struggles with the tendencies but remains chaste and does not promote homosexuality very well could be honored.

 

[Fitswimmer]

The church says it is disordered, you will have to live with the Church’s position on this.

The Church will NEVER change its position on this. It’s can’t, it is not only a sin directly mentioned by the bible, it is part of the sacred tradition of the Church.

If for some reason the Church did reverse it’s position it would be the beginning of the end for it since every other teaching would then be meaningless. However, we believe the Holy Spirit will prevent this from happening.

Someone who is an open unrepentant homosexual will never be honored by the Church as it goes against it teachings. Someone who struggles with the tendencies but remains chaste and does not promote homosexuality very well could be honored.

It does NOT say that the PERSON is disordered. It does NOT say that the PERSON is mentally ill.

The prevailing tendency to project the idea of disordered, sinful actions onto the person themselves seems unique to the treatment of homosexuals in the Church-not by the official Church of course, but by it’s “faithful” members. People do not differentiate between the act and the person when it comes to homosexuality-and you can see it very clearly on forums and in RL when this issue is raised. I know that we’re considered to be hypersensitive on this issue, but try reversing things and having heterosexual replaced with homosexual in some of these conversations and see how it would feel.

Someone who is an unrepentant sinner would never be honored by the Church no matter what the sin was. However, with the prevailing attitude of condemning the individuals along with the acts when it comes to homosexuality-if the Church were ever to honor a chaste homosexual it would create a larger riot than the Vatican II changes to the liturgy!

 

[Michael_Neal]

If the Church was to honor someone I would wonder why we would even be made aware of the fact that they are homosexuals in the first place, that is between them and their priest.

It would be just as strange to me if a person was honored by the Church as a chaste masturbator or transvestite.

You can leave out the particular sexual disorder and just call them a chaste man or woman of God.

 

[Fitswimmer]

If the Church was to honor someone I would wonder why we would even be made aware of the fact that they are homosexuals in the first place, that is between them and their priest.

It would be just as strange to me if a person was honored by the Church as a chaste masturbator or transvestite.

You can leave out the particular sexual disorder and just call them a chaste man or woman of God.

That’s true-and there have been chaste people honored as Saints already.

 

[Michael_Neal]

I think people fall into that trap of being defined as homosexual. People should not let their particular disordered inclinations define who they are.

 

[Jennifer123]

My sexual orientation is NOT a decision, I did not choose to live my life with this orientation. I chose how I deal with the orientation, but I did not choose to live my life with it. I would have chosen another way to live my life if that had been possible…

Again, the same question continues to remain unanswered. How did the heterosexuals among us become that way? What environmental, educational or parental factors create the heterosexual orientation and determine how they will live their lives?

Since I have never received an answer to this, I must assume that heterosexuals were created the same way I was and had no more control over it than I did.

There is no consensus as to how the disordered homosexual condition is created. It could be genetic but even if so, it is not relevant. There are a lot of genetically inherited conditions that are obviously not conducive to the human condition as God would have it - obesity, alcohol and drug addictions, etc. These are all crosses for us to bear.

You are correct though in that most homosexuals do not choose their condition. However, it doesn’t automatically mean it is an inherited genetic condition. There is much evidence that this is created in the earilest times of formation in our lives, as early as infantcy. Since most of us don’t have objective recollections of our interactions with our parents starting in infantcy, it is true to feel like one “has always felt this way”. That is probably true.

That doesn’t mean that people don’t also choose to be gay. The teenage years are full of sexual urges and desires that cause a lot of confusion. Kids at this age may have intense feelings, like a true feeling of love for a best friend or interests that fall outside the traditional gender stereotypes, that those promoting the homosexual agenda use to their advantage to convince kids to experiment and then label themselves as gay. It happens. A lot.

 

[Fitswimmer]

There is no consensus as to how the disordered homosexual condition is created. It could be genetic but even if so, it is not relevant. There are a lot of genetically inherited conditions that are obviously not conducive to the human condition as God would have it - obesity, alcohol and drug addictions, etc. These are all crosses for us to bear.

You are correct though in that most homosexuals do not choose their condition. However, it doesn’t automatically mean it is an inherited genetic condition. There is much evidence that this is created in the earilest times of formation in our lives, as early as infantcy. Since most of us don’t have objective recollections of our interactions with our parents starting in infantcy, it is true to feel like one “has always felt this way”. That is probably true.

That doesn’t mean that people don’t also choose to be gay. The teenage years are full of sexual urges and desires that cause a lot of confusion. Kids at this age may have intense feelings, like a true feeling of love for a best friend or interests that fall outside the traditional gender stereotypes, that those promoting the homosexual agenda use to their advantage to convince kids to experiment and then label themselves as gay. It happens. A lot.

Evidence??? I’ve yet to meet anyone who was “converted” to hetero or homosexuality. I know people who are active in the gay community, I know people who just live their lives as gay people and of course, most of my friends are straight. Most people I know on both sides view this as an urban myth designed to create and promote fear of homosexuals as people.