Gay and Lesbian Potluck?

[RunningLawyer]

I am a returning Catholic, so forgive me if I am out of touch.

Yesterday my wife and I attended a new church for us. In looking over the Church Bulletin before Mass I noticed the announcment of a Gay and Lesbian Potluck. Knowing that we are all God’s children I felt it must be a good way to spread the word - after all it was put in by the Gay and Lesbian ministry. During the Mass, as we were offering signs of peace, I noticed some men embracing and then kissing each other on the lips. They proceeded to take Communion.

I had never seen that before in any Catholic Church, and only my wife and I seemed surprised. Have we been gone that long? Is that now accepted by the Vatican? I thought practicing homosexuality is a sin. Was this proper?

(Link removed as per Banned Topics Policy)http://www.stfrancisparish.com/bulletins/JUL_22_2007.pdf

 

[Mirdath]

Is kissing a sin?

Also, let it be known: gays have the best barbecues.

 

[RunningLawyer]

Is kissing a sin?

I would say that depends.

Best barbecue? Are they from Texas?

 

[Sabda]

I will admit there are things in that bulletin that bother me. But first this is what the Catechism of the Church says.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

I would think that kissing between men with ssa would be a great temptation, which could easily lead them to sin.

Now as far as what it is about the bulletin that bothers me. Tai Chi Chih (from what I was able to find out) is tied to Buddhisim. It sounds innocent enough but it bothers me that they have this at a parish. I did not know what taize prayer was so I had to go look it up. From what I have read it appears to be ok. Like I said, I had never heard of it. Learned something new today!

I don’t like the way they have that potluck worded. Most Catholics that I have heard that are in that ministry seem to prefer using the term ssa (same sex attraction) instead of gay/lesbian.

Lastly, I would REALLY like to know what is going on in that picture in the photo gallery? Is that what I think it is? It appears to be a bunch of people, mainly women, dancing around the altar. I believe it’s called liturgical dancing. That should not be a part of the Mass.

This may be a great parish but like I said there are things in that bulletin that bother me.

Lastly welcome back!!! :clapping: If you haven’t already I would encourage you to get a Catholic Bible and a copy of the Catechism. When needing to learn about what the Church teaches the Catechism will be your best friend. You can pick one up at your local Barnes and Noble bookstore.

 

[blessedtoo]

Is kissing a sin?

Also, let it be known: gays have the best barbecues.

At least let a new member know that your response does NOT represent the Church’s teaching on homosexuality.

 

[blessedtoo]

I am a returning Catholic, so forgive me if I am out of touch.

Yesterday my wife and I attended a new church for us. In looking over the Church Bulletin before Mass I noticed the announcment of a Gay and Lesbian Potluck. Knowing that we are all God’s children I felt it must be a good way to spread the word - after all it was put in by the Gay and Lesbian ministry. During the Mass, as we were offering signs of peace, I noticed some men embracing and then kissing each other on the lips. They proceeded to take Communion.

I had never seen that before in any Catholic Church, and only my wife and I seemed surprised. Have we been gone that long? Is that now accepted by the Vatican? I thought practicing homosexuality is a sin. Was this proper?

(Link removed as per Banned Topics Policy)http://www.stfrancisparish.com/bulletins/JUL_22_2007.pdf

It looks like Sabda was able to access the bulletin (don’t know how). I would also like to see it but I will address your question from the Catholic persepective.

BTW: Welcome back! Your post reminds me of some of my questions when I first returned. Unfortunately, it’s a confusing time in the Church and it shouldn’t be.

Since someone already quoted the Catechism, you can read what the Church teaches regarding homosexual acts. While two men “kissing” during the sign of peace hardly constitutes a homosexual act, I would surmise from such a gesture that they are trying to make a statement by this action. When taken in context with the Gay and Lesbian Potluck notice, I think red flags would go up for me. As an aside, I took a gay male friend to Church with me one Sunday and, at the last minute, he brought along his partner as a “surprise”. Throughout the Mass, they kept touching eachother on the arms and legs in a way that clearly indicated intimacy. Thankfully, they did not kiss eachother during the sign of peace because I had already told my friend months before that the most acceptable expression of for his liturgical action was a handshake. But it was clear to me that my friend and his partner were making a statement by their body language.

The USCCB issued a document a year or so back that outlines the appropriate way for Parishes to minister to the homosexual community. One of the points it makes is that the Church must be very clear that the purpose for these ministries is to teach SSA individuals to lead a chaste life, in accordance with Church teaching. It advises that they avoid language, symbols, and activites that are associated with active gay lifestyles. Rainbow flags (which are activist symbols of gay pride), the terms gay, lesbian, transgender, bi - are all words that are used by the activist community. The Church endorses the group Courage because they are a ministry that clearly states their purpose. They do not use the words gay and lesbian to describe themselves. Rather they refer to themselves as same sex attracted or chaste homosexuals.

Here is a link if you are interested.
couragerc.net/

 

[PaulGH]

The following document may be helpful too:

usccb.org/dpp/Ministry.pdf

I think that this is what the previous poster was referring to.

And based on what you said, I have some definite concerns about the orthodoxy of that parish’s ministry to people with same-sex attractions.

Paul

 

[Church_Militant]

Sabda probably posted before the Mod removed the link. If you really do want to see it, you can PM the OP and have him send you the link, which does not violate the rules here at CAF.

This is a very valid question that RL has asked and I think he’s got some good answers.

Same sex attracted people should definitely not be lip locking at Mass. I go to Mass with my wife and we don’t even do that.

I would say that that parish has some real problems and would not return…maybe even send a copy of that bulletin to the bishop with questions about the things that you witnessed and see what happens.

 

[blessedtoo]

The following document may be helpful too:

usccb.org/dpp/Ministry.pdf

I think that this is what the previous poster was referring to.

And based on what you said, I have some definite concerns about the orthodoxy of that parish’s ministry to people with same-sex attractions.

Paul

That’s the one! Thanks Paul. (I love that document!)

 

[Ahimsa]

It depends on the kiss. Heterosexuals have been known to kiss each other during the ‘sign of fellowship’ portion, but it wasn’t ‘locking lips’.

 

[Bishopite]

Is kissing a sin?

Also, let it be known: gays have the best barbecues.

The OP didn’t just say the men were kissing, but were kissing “on the lips” yuck and that would be an odd act for the sign of peace. I kiss my wife at the sign of peace which many couples do as is normal, but if I saw men or women kissing “on the lips” at Mass I wouldn’t step foot in that church unless…

1. There was a large and violent earthquake or other natural disaster (God forbid) where all of the other parishes around 100 mile radius were leveled and it was Sunday or another holy day of obligation.
2. A nuclear bomb went off (God forbid) and all of the parishes around were wiped out to a crisp.
3. I was carjacked, beaten, shot three times, bleading profusely with major internal injuries near death, crawling and scraping the sidewalk with my fingernails with one arm and had no other place to get help, yes (God forbid that too!!).

 

[Ahimsa]

The OP didn’t just say the men were kissing, but were kissing “on the lips” yuck and that would be an odd act for the sign of peace. I kiss my wife at the sign of peace which many couples do as is normal, but if I saw men or women kissing “on the lips” at Mass I wouldn’t step foot in that church unless…

Well, there’s “kissing on the lips” and then there’s “kissing on the lips”. I wasn’t at the OP’s Mass, so I don’t know exactly what happened.

Having said that, though, since the CC condemns homosexual acts, the CC would first have to decide whether “kissing on the lips” falls under sexual or non-sexual activity.

 

[mainusch]

Well, there’s “kissing on the lips” and then there’s “kissing on the lips”. I wasn’t at the OP’s Mass, so I don’t know exactly what happened.

Having said that, though, since the CC condemns homosexual acts, the CC would first have to decide whether “kissing on the lips” falls under sexual or non-sexual activity.

As I understand it, the sign of peace is the holy kiss. In the culture the early church was immersed in, greeting with a kiss was not a sexual thing, and was quite common. In modern western society, it is largely considered sexual, and “the holy kiss” in our context is usually a handshake instead of anything involving lips.

My wife and I always kiss on the lips at the sign of peace, and we shake hands with everyone else. I don’t think this is at all inappropriate, and I see it a lot among married people in church.

It’s about what you are communicating, and the culture of those with whom you are communicating. There are words we innocently use here in the US that in some other countries are considered offensive. For example, I once went to Australia, and had one of those belts with a large zippered pocket in the back. If you’re familiar with this item, the common American expression for it contains a word that in Australia refers instead to a private part of a woman’s anatomy. As I learned the hard way.

In some cultures, men kissing in greeting may be perfectly normal. In the modern west, it clearly communicates something else.

At a Catholic Mass, I highly doubt two men kissing on the lips at the sign of peace is intended to fulfill the purpose of this important part of the Mass, but rather to communicate something entirely different to those in attendance. Call me a cynic.

 

[fellowChristian]

Are you sure it was The Catholic Church?

Because they’re alot of churches out there that say their “Catholic” but they are not The Catholic Church.

There is The “True Catholic Church” and there is a Catholic Church with gay people as “priests” and there is one with women as “priests” none of which are in communion with the pope.Oh and one called ExCatholic. I forget all the names.I’ll look up them up later.

 

[Scottgun]

Are you sure it was The Catholic Church?

Because they’re alot of churches out there that say their “Catholic” but they are not The Catholic Church.

There is The “True Catholic Church” and there is a Catholic Church with gay people as “priests” and there is one with women as “priests” none of which are in communion with the pope.Oh and one called ExCatholic. I forget all the names.I’ll look up them up later.

This would be easy to confirm. Every diocese has a website I bet. And they usually have a list of parishes. If this church ain’t on it, it is a safe bet it is not Catholic.

 

[Bishopite]

Well, there’s “kissing on the lips” and then there’s “kissing on the lips”. I wasn’t at the OP’s Mass, so I don’t know exactly what happened.

Having said that, though, since the CC condemns homosexual acts, the CC would first have to decide whether “kissing on the lips” falls under sexual or non-sexual activity.

When did I say that “kissing on the lips” is the criteria for one being homosexual?

None of us were there, however, I suspect as does the OP being he equated together men “kissing on the lips” and “homsexuality.” That that parish is filled with practicing homosexuals who are perhaps are supported by the parish who don’t even try to hide their immoral behavior; it sounds very likely as though this is happening, and if I were a betting man, I’d bet the house and say it is a VERY liberal parish that does NOT conform itself to Catholic church teaching, but that is just my inclination and opinion not my foregone conclusion.

 

[Bishopite]

As I understand it, the sign of peace is the holy kiss. In the culture the early church was immersed in, greeting with a kiss was not a sexual thing, and was quite common. In modern western society, it is largely considered sexual, and “the holy kiss” in our context is usually a handshake instead of anything involving lips.

My wife and I always kiss on the lips at the sign of peace, and we shake hands with everyone else. I don’t think this is at all inappropriate, and I see it a lot among married people in church.

It’s about what you are communicating, and the culture of those with whom you are communicating. There are words we innocently use here in the US that in some other countries are considered offensive. For example, I once went to Australia, and had one of those belts with a large zippered pocket in the back. If you’re familiar with this item, the common American expression for it contains a word that in Australia refers instead to a private part of a woman’s anatomy. As I learned the hard way.

In some cultures, men kissing in greeting may be perfectly normal. In the modern west, it clearly communicates something else.

At a Catholic Mass, I highly doubt two men kissing on the lips at the sign of peace is intended to fulfill the purpose of this important part of the Mass, but rather to communicate something entirely different to those in attendance. Call me a cynic.

I agree with you and I’m not familiar with any culture where men kiss each other on the lips as a greeting, although I may be wrong. I’m french and have many french relatives (I was born in France) and they kiss also as many of you know, but they kiss on the cheek and few men kiss, yet if they do, they kiss on the cheek NOT on the lips and this is in France of all places. If I saw men in the US kissing on the cheek I wouldn’t be alarmed at all; some cultures do this and it’s normal, however on the lips at Mass in the USA would make me very suspect of that parish unless it were a parish from people of another country/culture, then I’d ask the priest or someone who knew what was happening. Better yet I’d ask one of the men who was kissing the other man in a polite way of course.

 

[RunningLawyer]

I would like to thank everyone for their comments. I don’t want to come off as being a hateful and judging person. But the feeling my wife and I had as we attended that Mass was that the men were openly gay, and they did not believe their lifesyle contradicted the teachings of the Catholic Church. Either that or they were making a mockery of the Mass. However no one else seemed to mind or notice so I gathered it was common practice there.

I can share the parish web site with anyone through private email. It is a real Catholic Church. I want to stress that the parish does do good things and appears to have a very active membership.

 

[blessedtoo]

I would like to thank everyone for their comments. I don’t want to come off as being a hateful and judging person. But the feeling my wife and I had as we attended that Mass was that the men were openly gay, and they did not believe their lifesyle contradicted the teachings of the Catholic Church. Either that or they were making a mockery of the Mass. However no one else seemed to mind or notice so I gathered it was common practice there.

I can share the parish web site with anyone through private email. It is a real Catholic Church. I want to stress that the parish does do good things and appears to have a very active membership.

Don’t you worry about how you sound. There was nothing hateful about your question. It is very confusing to those of us who are returning after many years to be confronted with so many “new” things. In another post you mentioned that this same Parish has no kneelers, and the priest instructs the faithful to all hold hands during the Our Father. It sounds like you stumbled into a Church that is walking a very fine line - there are quite a few that stay just barely to the right of heterodoxy. I had to search for two years before I found a Parish I could trust. Do not despair of finding one that truly supports Catholic teaching. They are out there!

Please PM me a link to the bulletin!

 

[JudiTherese]

I would be interested in seeing the bulletin as well. That just doesn’t set well with me.