Gay Catholics and Gay bars

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If a practising gay Catholic, who also practises chastity, goes to a gay bar (perhaps with a friend or something, for a drink) is this licit (i.e., okay).

Equally, if the same gay Catholic, chaste, should join a gay ‘dating’ website, with the intention of speaking to and possibly meeting other gay men (for friendship and conversation), is this licit?
 
I’m not sure. Going into a bar for a few drinks might not be but I am not sure about the dating website thing, even with chaste intentions. However, placing oneself in such situations might not be wise as they could be rife with temptation. Same-sex attraction can be very powerful and difficult to control, so avoiding the occasion of sin is very important. Therefore, I do not think it would be the best idea.
 
Tannhauser said:
If a practising gay Catholic, who also practises chastity, goes to a gay bar (perhaps with a friend or something, for a drink) is this licit (i.e., okay).

Equally, if the same gay Catholic, chaste, should join a gay ‘dating’ website, with the intention of speaking to and possibly meeting other gay men (for friendship and conversation), is this licit?
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Going to a gay bar seems like it could be a near occasion of sin, especially if people are dressed particularly provocatively. Also, being exposed to people practicing the very lifestyle that one is trying to escape could be particularly dangerous. I would recommend choosing a bar that is not known as a homosexual hangout.

Dating websites exist for the explicit purpose of promoting dating. If this site were to give the option of identifying oneself as only looking for friendship, that could provide a licit reason to use the site, however I would recommend staying away again for the purposes of staying away from any form of the gay lifestyle.
 
It depends largely on the motives. If this is a near occasion for sin, then hasn’t he resolved at confession to avoid it? There are many ways to make friends online outside of sites dedicated to those who are pursuing sexual relationships.

By the way, I have found christian ex-gay groups to be extremely valuable in helping me identify the roots of my feelings and also helping me to form healthier relationships with peers. He may find valuable support at a local chapter of Courage.
 
I believe not, for that which invites sin is itself sinful.

I will attempt to paraphrase Paul of Tarsus here: “If something tempts you to sin, or if you see sin, run away - fast.”

Gay bars or gay dating sites - or for that matter, straight “singles” bars and straight dating sites - even if joined with the best of intentions, are a path to sin, for, to quote the Bible (Paul of Tarsus to the Romans), “For all men have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God”.

If that’s not immediately applicable, remember the road to sin is temptation, and the easily availability of illicit sex, alas, people who may very well practise it to such a degree as it becomes normal in their eyes, and may indeed attempt to force, or cajole, or tempt, others in to doing it, whether it be homosexual acts or heterosexual acts outside of marriage, are a sure temptation (unless one is a eunuch), and the wages of temptation is sin, and the wages of sin is death.

This principle is well-enshrined in Islamic legal tradition and fiqh (understanding), under the law, or principle, “That which leads to the haraam (forbidden) is itself haraam” and is enshrined in the New Covenant in Paul’s utterance as mentioned above. Do not stray towards sin: if one does not approach sin, and one turns his back to Satan, sin does not approach one, and can not touch one if you take refuge in God against it and the accursed Satan.

Stay upright and worship God, if out of wedlock, then in celibacy, and do not approach sin nor let it approach you; for sin is as a flame and the human soul is like a moth. For God is a loving God, all-merciful and all-forgiving, and he hates but one thing: sin (not sinners).

To quote a Hadith (saying or tradition) of the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) which I believe is applicable to morality in all of the Abrahamic religions.

Ibn Abbas (r.a.) came to the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) and said, “I have thoughts of such a nature that I would rather be burned to a crisp than to speak of them!” Muhammad (s.a.w.) said, "God is Great, God is Great, God is Great, Praise be to God, who has limited the matter to promptings of the mind."

(To scholars and scientists of Ahadith, if there are any present on a Catholic forum(!) I have not included the intermediary isnad; it is included in Abu Dawood, and is quoted from the Mishkat al-Masabih, translated in to the English language by le Gai Eaton, by way of the Mishkat al-Sunnah and is considered a sahih tradition.)
 
I’m a straight guy who has gone into straight bars with a friend (who also happens to be my wife) for a drink or two. No problem. I seem to recall that there might have been one or two other pretty girls in there (can’t say for sure), but, if so, I was not paying any attention to them.

But if I were single, I would not register myself on straight dating sites in order to find chaste friendship (to ONLY share Italian cuisine and long walks on the beach and Beethoven’s Violin Concerto (his real masterpiece - wait for the third movement)). Because I think I would probably be the ONLY person on the site with this intent. Everyone ELSE is looking for a comitted relationship. Even if my profile stated, “NOT looking for sex,” it would be interpreted as a ploy.
 
Define gay bar. If it involves any activity by the staff in order to induce sexual arousal then there is no reason why anybody should be there.
 
Tannhauser said:
If a practising gay Catholic, who also practises chastity, goes to a gay bar (perhaps with a friend or something, for a drink) is this licit (i.e., okay).

Equally, if the same gay Catholic, chaste, should join a gay ‘dating’ website, with the intention of speaking to and possibly meeting other gay men (for friendship and conversation), is this licit?
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How can there be a “practicing” gay Catholic who is at the same time “practicing” chastity? That is illogical.

The rest about the gay website is a cause of scandal, an occasion of sin and leading other men astray who are living that life style. This person needs the grace of God to rule his life and should avoid all this and offer up his sufferings for those gay and lesbian people who are on the wide path to destruction. Start taking these things seriously while there is still time!

1 Cor. 6:9-10 says “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Gal. 5:19-21 says"Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

But know that God is merciful to those who truly seek God through repentance and turning away from sin and striving to live a life that pleases God not himself.
 
There is no such thing as a gay Catholic, practicing or non-practicing. Homosexuality is an illusion implanted upon a soul by wrong impressions, faulty upbringing, or demonic influence. Since we know absolutely that God designed the male sexual organ to fit perfectly into the female sexual organ, it is a matter of logic to affirm that homosexuality is non-existent as a biological factor. A deep psychological manifestation of immaturity on the part of the unfortunate individual is all that homosexuality consists of.

Any Catholic who thinks of himself as ‘gay’ cannot be a Catholic at heart, because Catholicism is opposed to this self-identification. You cannot be saved by God if you identify, at your base, as anything other than a human being. He’s not “a homosexual”, he’s not a “gay man”; he’s a man. Believing that an effeminate nature (true homosexuality is always passive and receptive, whereas the male gender is active and genitive) fits his manliness is simply wrong. As a man, it is naturally wrong for him to exhibit anything other than the masculine qualities (creation, not reception, for example) External conditions do not make the man, but what his heart truly grieves for and rejoices over make the man! Catholicism cannot be the belief of a man who identifies as “gay” first, then “human”.

In terms of this actual subject, I’d say it’s a near occasion of sin for any person with homosexual fetishes to go near a gay bar. Why would a man who is trying to overcome a disordered affection go to a place which is full of other men planning to indulge in the same disordered affection? Remember that the appetite is excited by the presence of its proper object; in this situation, the confused concupiscible appetite (homosexual lust) is strongly activated by the presence of the object of its desires (attractive members of the same sex). Even if your friend is chaste, all those shirtless and dancing men will surely excite some reaction in his physiological character which may lead to the solitary sin later.

This seems a dangerous attempt at thumbing one’s nose at Satan.
 
GloriousOrder said:
There is no such thing as a gay Catholic, practicing or non-practicing. Homosexuality is an illusion implanted upon a soul by wrong impressions, faulty upbringing, or demonic influence. Since we know absolutely that God designed the male sexual organ to fit perfectly into the female sexual organ, it is a matter of logic to affirm that homosexuality is non-existent as a biological factor. A deep psychological manifestation of immaturity on the part of the unfortunate individual is all that homosexuality consists of.
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In that case, homosexuality would be something unique to certain cultures or people with poor upbringing. I mean, it couldn’t be at all possible that the percentage of homosexuals is around the same for every single country (2.5%) or that people with perfectly good upbringings (both parents, good financial situation, good education, no childhood hardships) with heterosexual brothers. No, that is ridiculous. It must be the produce of something going wrong in childhood. 🤷

Please, your medieval thinking even goes against Church teaching, which teaches that it occurs naturally in a way we cannot fathom.
 
LemonAndLime said:
In that case, homosexuality would be something unique to certain cultures or people with poor upbringing. I mean, it couldn’t be at all possible that the percentage of homosexuals is around the same for every single country (2.5%) or that people with perfectly good upbringings (both parents, good financial situation, good education, no childhood hardships) with heterosexual brothers. No, that is ridiculous. It must be the produce of something going wrong in childhood. 🤷

Please, your medieval thinking even goes against Church teaching, which teaches that it occurs naturally in a way we cannot fathom.
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As G.K. Chesterton once had Father Brown say: “You see, the Dark Ages tried to make a science about good people. But our own humane and enlightened age is only interested
in a science about bad ones”. Please, please, please never associate “Medieval” with anything barbaric or inherently stupid. Some of the greatest and most sanguine saints of the holy Church were ‘medieval’. St. Thomas Aquinas is venerated today, though he had pretty “Medieval” notions about government, women, and money. Don’t give in to C.S. Lewis’ “chronological snobbery”. The Church does not repent of its longstanding teachings, after all…

The statistic about homosexuality being at perhaps 2.5% of the population for every country is more interesting for its low percentage than for its uniformity, I think. It’s pretty obvious that the anal sphincter is not meant for receiving the sexual organs, or for carrying out any sort of generative faculty. Why should it be used this way? Using the human body as if it were an object of pleasure (mutual or not) is a grave sin against God’s commandment of self-giving love. Whatever you say, my sister, the fact is that the Church treats homosexuality as a deformity of proper faculties, or the misalignment of rightly-set, reasonable sexuality.

Anyway, this topic is about advice for a gay bar. My somewhat heated rhetoric was a prelude to my conclusion, which is in the third paragraph of my first post. The rest was just a preparatory explanation. Sorry to have shifted the topic away so quickly… 😦

Circumstances being what they are, it is impossible for me to be merely an anti-gay bigot. Always assume the best intentions on every man’s part. 🙂
 
Tannhauser said:
If a practising gay Catholic, who also practises chastity, goes to a gay bar (perhaps with a friend or something, for a drink) is this licit (i.e., okay).

Equally, if the same gay Catholic, chaste, should join a gay ‘dating’ website, with the intention of speaking to and possibly meeting other gay men (for friendship and conversation), is this licit?
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You’re kidding, right?

How about this: would it be okay for me, a married man, to go to a swinger’s club with a woman I know from down the street to have a drink? Or how about if I join a swinger’s website with the intention of speaking to and possibly meeting some swinger for friendship and conversation?
 
GloriousOrder said:
There is no such thing as a gay Catholic, practicing or non-practicing. Homosexuality is an illusion implanted upon a soul by wrong impressions, faulty upbringing, or demonic influence.

Any Catholic who thinks of himself as ‘gay’ cannot be a Catholic at heart, because Catholicism is opposed to this self-identification… Catholicism cannot be the belief of a man who identifies as “gay” first, then “human”.
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I identify myself as “Catholic” first, “Irish” second, “male” third, “Trekkie” fourth, “potential alcoholic” fifth (the family history is brutal), “mouth-breather” sixth, “social recluse” seventh, and eventually I get around to “human” somewhere around number eighteen. A number of these are opposed by the Catholic’s ideal image of perfected man, but all are nevertheless realities in this fallen world. Identifying oneself as belonging to a minority group does not exclude one’s own humanity. It’s true that the medievalists were the greatest thinkers in history, but not one of them would ascribe that that mad theory.

Your argument suggests that everyone suffering from any psychological difficulties or destructive innate biological tendencies (such as the alcoholism gene) is going to hell, because they are not truly Catholic at heart. That, or you think that all self-identified homosexuals are just pretending that they have a genuine, deep-seated sexual attraction to members of the same sex. That position does profound violence to Catholic teaching, to our ability to reach out to both “lifestyle” and chaste homosexuals, and to the virtue of charity. Please rethink it.
 
GloriousOrder said:
You cannot be saved by God if you identify, at your base, as anything other than a human being. .
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I don’t want to get into a protracted discussion about the rest of your comment, but I will just say that it’s hardly your, or anyone’s place, to be speaking about who can and cannot be saved by Christ’s death upon the Cross.

It is one thing for the Church to authoritatively teach the conditions necessary for salvation, but quite another for lay men and women to be discussing the infinite charity of God as though He is restricted to those whom we say can and cannot be saved.

Also, identifying oneself as Gay is less identifying oneself as with a positive, affirmative identity (although I dare say it is for some), and more identifying oneself in opposition to the loaded term straight; it is effectively a relative term.
 
Tannhauser said:
If a practising gay Catholic, who also practises chastity, goes to a gay bar (perhaps with a friend or something, for a drink) is this licit (i.e., okay).

Equally, if the same gay Catholic, chaste, should join a gay ‘dating’ website, with the intention of speaking to and possibly meeting other gay men (for friendship and conversation), is this licit?
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From what I have seen, gay people aren’t really trying to be chaste (no matter how much they may SAY they are) if they are signing up for gay dating websites and going to gay bars, supposedly “to make friends”. Also, I have observed that it is MUCH, MUCH more helpful for men struggling with homosexual tendencies to develop friendships with heterosexual men. A person struggling with homosexuality and trying to live a chaste life is playing with fire if they go to places where people who have the same struggles as they have, but who are not trying to be chaste.
 
Tannhauser said:
If a practising gay Catholic, who also practises chastity, goes to a gay bar (perhaps with a friend or something, for a drink) is this licit (i.e., okay).

Equally, if the same gay Catholic, chaste, should join a gay ‘dating’ website, with the intention of speaking to and possibly meeting other gay men (for friendship and conversation), is this licit?
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Maybe…but I would say those that dance with danger are doomed to fall to it…no matter if you have SSO or not.
 
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