"Gay Day" Ruined Our Day at Cedar Point

[BillP]

Here you go Jea:

"But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican." Matt 18:15-17

A more extensive quote, might shed a bit of light:

1 At this time the disciples came to Jesus and said, ‘Who is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven?’ …
15 'If your brother does something wrong, go and have it out with him alone, between your two selves. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you: whatever the misdemeanour, the evidence of two or three witnesses is required to sustain the charge. 17 But if he refuses to listen to these, report it to the community; and if he refuses to listen to the community, treat him like a gentile or a tax collector. 18 'In truth I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

So Jesus was issuing these instructions to the apostles, and through apostolic succession to the clergy in general. NOT TO THE LAITY.

Which of course is why we have to go to Priests for confessions.

 

[Loboto-Me]

You know, today is the feast of St John The Baptist, he who was put to death because he spoke against sin.

He condemned Herod’s unlawful marriage, spoke against sin, and urged repentance. Do you think he wasn’t judging actions? Do you think he didn’t die for righteous judgements?

Now think about it, what is the gay movement trying to do? Should we as Christians sit around and shut up and not be scandalized or should we take an example from St John The Baptist?

 

[BillP]

Well if you don’t look then of course you will not see.

Jesus: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

Again, the context of this will show Jesus’ actual intentions:

18 When someone speaks on his own account, he is seeking honour for himself; but when he is seeking the honour of the person who sent him, then he is true and altogether without dishonesty. 19 Did not Moses give you the Law? And yet not one of you keeps the Law! ‘Why do you want to kill me?’ 20 The crowd replied, ‘You are mad! Who wants to kill you?’ 21 Jesus answered, ‘One work I did, and you are all amazed at it. 22 Moses ordered you to practise circumcision – not that it began with him, it goes back to the patriarchs – and you circumcise on the Sabbath. 23 Now if someone can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses is not broken, why are you angry with me for making someone completely healthy on a Sabbath? 24 Do not keep judging according to appearances; let your judgement be according to what is right.’

This is obviously not about people being encouraged to judge one another at all, but about NOT judging by appearances. Sheesh!

Out of idle curiosity what do you all think:

1 'Do not judge, and you will not be judged; 2 because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you. 3 Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the great log in your own? 4 And how dare you say to your brother, “Let me take that splinter out of your eye,” when, look, there is a great log in your own? 5 Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.

Means?

And note well also you yourself have judged others several times on this thread, do you know what the word is for someone who does not practice what he preaches? Jesus used it on the Pharisees.

Where?

The rest of the quotations were from sources other than the Gospels, so I stand by my “Jesus didn’t tell us to judge people”. I would also note that your cites are (except for Proverbs which has nothing to do with Jesus) from directions given to the leaders of various Churches not to the laity. AFAIK there is no where in the Bible where it tells the laity to get all up in one another’s business when we think others are sinning.

 

[BillP]

I know this was directed at Jea, but I’ll answer too anyhow. I am upset when I witness any sin out in public. Especially sins against chastity and modesty, like the PDAs we’ve been talking about. I’m sure I’d be even MORE super upset if it was my daughter who was witnessing it.

Good for you!

Why assume that the Catholics on this thread have a special place of “hatred” in their hearts for homosexuals? Don’t mean to sound like I’m picking on you specifically, Bill, but you’ve been insinuating that from the very beginning of this thread. Sin is sin in my book, it’s all bad.

With the sole exception of taking issue with one poster’s characterization of French Kissing, I haven’t made any assumptions or judgements about anybody. I’ve simply asked questions.

 

[BillP]

Really? How about, if your brother is doing something wrong go to him yourself, and if he does not correct then go with more people and if he still doesn’t, then take it to the Church. I am SO not good at quoting Biblical passages, I have no idea where this is from, and I’m aware that it is most often used to support the hierarchy of the Church.

That was directed at the apostles, not the rest of us. I know because the very next verse goes on to institute the sacrament of reconciliation, and he didn’t tell us we could hear confessions either.

 

[Jea9]

That was directed at the apostles, not the rest of us. I know because the very next verse goes on to institute the sacrament of reconciliation, and he didn’t tell us we could hear confessions either.

OK. I’m not a biblical scholar, I will leave the quotes and the interpretations to others.

How about the rest of my post? Being called to bring the Gospel? Are we not our brother’s keeper?

 

[Jea9]

1 'Do not judge, and you will not be judged; 2 because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you. 3 Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the great log in your own? 4 And how dare you say to your brother, “Let me take that splinter out of your eye,” when, look, there is a great log in your own? 5 Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.

What do I think this means? I think it means that if I’m going to be judging another persons actions, I better be ready to defend my own. That I will be judged according to the same judgment that I am giving. In other words, we need to practice what we preach. It does not mean that you give carte blanche to others in sin because we are also in sin, it means that you must be ready to realize that you are in sin before you can call another’s sin to mind. I am. I am a sinner, I know that whenever I sin be it mortally or venially that I offend God. This hurts me unbelievably, to know that I offend Him, and to seemingly fall and fall again. I am sorry for ALL of my sins; I would be most sorry if I allowed another to carry on in sin because I was afraid to tell him or her.

 

[BillP]

Are we not told that we are our brother’s keeper? And that to whom much was given, much will be expected? Are we not called to bring the Gospel to those around us? How would that not include explaining what is sin and what isn’t sin? We are certainly not called to judge another’s soul, but if we are called to bring the Gospel, that includes explaining what constitutes sin, venial and mortal.

Are you really not convinced that these people simply don’t know they are sinning? Homosexuals have never heard that what they’re doing is wrong? Seriously?

What about Natural Law (that is “written on the hearts of all men?”)??

As far as “bringing the Gospel” we have profoundly different understandings of the Gospel message. To me it was that Jesus came to pay the price for our sinfulness and give each and every one of us the opportunity to miss Hell. Once we believe in him and guide our lives in his path we are saved.

And guess what? Believing in him will give us the grace necessary for us to guide our lives in his path not the other way around. Belief must come first! Then we will reform our lives.

So the message isn’t

• “Stop sinning!!” that you may find Jesus and through him, Eternal life"

but rather

• Find Jesus! and through him you will stop sinning and find Eternal life!

It may seem like an insignificant difference, or even sophistry, but to me its an important, even crucial difference!

I can’t possibly do the first thing (stop sinning), as a prerequisite to finding Jesus, but maybe I can do the second…

 

[BillP]

What do I think this means? I think it means that if I’m going to be judging another persons actions, I better be ready to defend my own.

Do you really not see that none of us are fit to defend our actions? Isn’t that what “let whoever amongst you is without sin cast the first stone” was all about?

 

[Jea9]

Are you really not convinced that these people simply don’t know they are sinning? Homosexuals have never heard that what they’re doing is wrong? Seriously?

What about Natural Law (that is “written on the hearts of all men?”)??

Of course I think that they KNOW it. That is what I’ve said! However, I think it’s highly possible that a great majority of people who are living in such sin do not understand the full consequences of living in that sin.

As far as “bringing the Gospel” we have profoundly different understandings of the Gospel message. To me it was that Jesus came to pay the price for our sinfulness and give each and every one of us the opportunity to miss Hell. Once we believe in him and guide our lives in his path we are saved.

That sounds oddly like a protestant view of salvation, and not at all like what Holy Mother Church teaches.

And guess what? Believing in him will give us the grace necessary for us to guide our lives in his path not the other way around. Belief must come first! Then we will reform our lives.

Simple belief in Him will NOT give us the grace necessary. We require constant grace; the grace we received at our Baptism, at Confirmation, at our marriage and the grace that we receive every time we receive Him in the Eucharist.

So the message isn’t

• “Stop sinning!!” that you may find Jesus and through him, Eternal life"

but rather

• Find Jesus! and through him you will stop sinning and find Eternal life!

It may seem like an insignificant difference, or even sophistry, but to me its an important, even crucial difference!

I can’t possibly do the first thing (stop sinning), as a prerequisite to finding Jesus, but maybe I can do the second…

The third mystery of the Luminous Rosary is being called to mind here. The proclamation of the Kingdom of God with a call to Repentance. The road is wide, but the gate is narrow. I think that through our desire to stop sinning we find Jesus.

This thread is far off from what the OP intended, and I think that it is causing me have frequent, uncharitable thoughts. I am respectfully bowing out of the discussion.

 

[BillP]

You know, today is the feast of St John The Baptist, he who was put to death because he spoke against sin.

He condemned Herod’s unlawful marriage, spoke against sin, and urged repentance. Do you think he wasn’t judging actions? Do you think he didn’t die for righteous judgements?

Now think about it, what is the gay movement trying to do? Should we as Christians sit around and shut up and not be scandalized or should we take an example from St John The Baptist?

17 Now it was this same Herod who had sent to have John arrested, and had had him chained up in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife whom he had married. 18 For John had told Herod, ‘It is against the law for you to have your brother’s wife.’ 19 As for Herodias, she was furious with him and wanted to kill him, but she was not able to do so, 20 because Herod was in awe of John, knowing him to be a good and upright man, and gave him his protection. When he had heard him speak he was greatly perplexed, and yet he liked to listen to him. 21 An opportunity came on Herod’s birthday when he gave a banquet for the nobles of his court, for his army officers and for the leading figures in Galilee. 22 When the daughter of this same Herodias came in and danced, she delighted Herod and his guests; so the king said to the girl, ‘Ask me anything you like and I will give it you.’ 23 And he swore her an oath, ‘I will give you anything you ask, even half my kingdom.’ 24 She went out and said to her mother, ‘What shall I ask for?’ She replied, ‘The head of John the Baptist.’ 25 The girl at once rushed back to the king and made her request, ‘I want you to give me John the Baptist’s head, immediately, on a dish.’ 26 The king was deeply distressed but, thinking of the oaths he had sworn and of his guests, he was reluctant to break his word to her. 27 At once the king sent one of the bodyguard with orders to bring John’s head.

It sounds to me like John was killed because Herod was weak willed and of poor character…

 

[ContegoFides]

Out of idle curiosity what do you all think:
Quote:
1 'Do not judge, and you will not be judged; 2 because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you. 3 Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the great log in your own? 4 And how dare you say to your brother, “Let me take that splinter out of your eye,” when, look, there is a great log in your own? 5 Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.

Means?

Clearly, I have the ability to judge that my brother has a splinter in his eye. However, Jesus warns me not to be a hypocrite by identifying the splinter in my brother’s eye without first identifying the log in my own eye. In other words, the last statement provides “then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye;” therefore, if my vision is clear (or at least I earnestly believe it to be clear) then I may indeed say to my brother that there is a splinter in his eye and request that I remove it.

The context of these statements makes it clear that the prohibition is against judging unjustly or hypocritically - and against judging the state of a person’s soul. However, we are all called to judge actions and objective issues.

In fact, supporters of the gay movement judge me when they say that I am “intolerate,” “hateful,” and “homophobic” - all false perjorative invectives - and that my voice should not be heard in the public square. Not so, I say. Rather, I am trying, in love, to warn them against the reality that homosexual actions are against God’s law and that they are playing with fire.

Leviticus 18: 1-2 and 22:

The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and tell them: I, the LORD, am your God.
…
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.

Leviticus 20: 1 and 13:

The LORD said to Moses,
…
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

Romans 1: 18-22, 27-28, 32

12 The wrath 13 of God 14 is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
19
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
21
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22
*While claiming to be wise, they became fools *
…
Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
27
and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.
28
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.
…
32
Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

1 Corinthians 6: 9-10

9
2 3 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites
10
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1: 8-11

4 We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law,
9
with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers,
10
the unchaste, sodomites, 5 kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,
11
according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Let’s see. Both the old testament and the new testament specifically condemn homosexual activity as being punishable by death, not only in this world - but the eternal death of Hell. Attempts to justify homosexual behavior from the Bible are all based on vauge notions of love, but the specific injunctions are extremely clear on this subject.

My duty as a Christian is to warn people that this kind of activity is deadly dangerous to the soul. We should never condone it in any way, shape, or form, nor should we support it in the public sector no matter what sophist arguments are used regarding “freedom” or “equality.”

This is about reality. This is about eternal life and death. This is about my love for my fellow humans; to warn, not to judge the state of someone’s soul.

We need to wake up here in America; and in fact throughout Western culture. We are numbly sliding into allowing grave evils to become standard, accepted practice. I say I will not be silenced by unfair accusations of being “judgemental.” Rather, I say “repent, before it’s too late to repent any more.”

God Bless!

 

[Loboto-Me]

replaced the post with one with a quote

 

[Loboto-Me]

It sounds to me like John was killed because Herod was weak willed and of poor character…

I rest my case!

 

[ContegoFides]

So the message isn’t

“Stop sinning!!” that you may find Jesus and through him, Eternal life"
but rather

Find Jesus! and through him you will stop sinning and find Eternal life!

Actually, I don’t see it as “either, or.” I see it as “both, and.”

 

[BillP]

That sounds oddly like a protestant view of salvation, and not at all like what Holy Mother Church teaches.

Really? That surprises me.

Even the old Baltimore Catechism said:

**Question: **What must we do to save our souls?
**Answer: **To save our souls we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart.

Note the order.

Simple belief in Him will NOT give us the grace necessary. We require constant grace; the grace we received at our Baptism, at Confirmation, at our marriage and the grace that we receive every time we receive Him in the Eucharist.

But the point is that we don’t EARN the Grace by not sinning. It is a free gift from God that we merely have to accept.

 

[desertPavel]

I want the word “gay” returned to its original meaning of being happy, joyful and carefree! We should call the type of thing the op described “homosexual activist days” or something like that. And yeah, it would be nice if we knew in advance about “homosexual activist” days so we could make alternative plans rather than exposing our young children to alternative lifestyles.

The use of the word “gay” is just a form of Newspeak. It strips sodomy of its inherent natural disorder. People who are in favor of killing babies for the sake of convenience or contraception are called “pro-choice”.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

This is why I usually don’t bother using scripture in my arguments, people like you Bill always take that as an opportunity to twist and pervert it.

Suffice to say I consider your interpretations to be false and not consistent with Christ’s teachings or the teachings of His Church.

The truth of the matter is there for those who have eyes to see, I will pray to St. Raphael for you.

 

[BillP]

This is why I usually don’t bother using scripture in my arguments, people like you Bill always take that as an opportunity to twist and pervert it.

You seem to define anyone who disagrees with you as “twisting and perveting” scripture. Are you then an infallible interpreter?

Suffice to say I consider your interpretations to be false and not consistent with Christ’s teachings or the teachings of His Church.

As I do yous.

The truth of the matter is there for those who have eyes to see, I will pray to St. Raphael for you.

Indeed it is. And I am content with that. Thank you for the prayers.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

You seem to define anyone who disagrees with you as “twisting and perveting” scripture. Are you then an infallible interpreter?

Is that so, who are these anyone’s Bill? I think you will find it is just you and those who think like you.

The Church is the infallible interpreter and I agree with her, while you it seems are a man who has a very bad habit of calling good evil and evil good.