Gay engagement party

[Gertabelle]

To the OP, since you are an adult, you could just open up a conversation with your dad about why you don’t feel comfortable going, why he does, etc. It may (or may not) be new territory to have that kind of conversation with your dad as adults, but it’s a powerful and awesome kind of conversation to have with one’s parents. In other words, rather than try to persuade him, just ask him what’s going on in his head and heart. Well, that’s how a woman would put it

God bless you. I’ll be praying for you, and for the men you’re talking about.

Gertie

 

[heaintheavy]

To the OP, since you are an adult, you could just open up a conversation with your dad about why you don’t feel comfortable going, why he does, etc. It may (or may not) be new territory to have that kind of conversation with your dad as adults, but it’s a powerful and awesome kind of conversation to have with one’s parents. In other words, rather than try to persuade him, just ask him what’s going on in his head and heart. Well, that’s how a woman would put it
God bless you. I’ll be praying for you, and for the men you’re talking about.
Gertie

Yes, always good to exchange points of views so you can learn about what is in each other’s heads and hearts–you get to know and understand each other better.
I think the dad did make it clear already, though, as per the original post, that he’s going to the party to support the father–his friend. Those are his motives and that is why he feels comfortable going–because he is helping his friend.
Sounds like the father doesn’t have any problem with his son/daughter not attending, though, and respects the child’s decision and is not pushing him/her to attend the party, too.
Yet… the son/daughter has a problem with the father going and wants to change his mind, even though the father has explained his heartfelt reason.
The poster’s dad is Catholic, yes?
So he knows what’s-what in the religion and he’s already weighed that with the desire to help his friend…and he has come to the conclusion that helping his friend is the more loving decision he can make in this instance as opposed to worrying what other people may think.
He also knows, I assume, that adults make their own choices along the road of life that they need to make and that his not attending the party won’t have an effect on his friend’s, son’s sexuality.
All it would do is take away the help he feels his friend needs.

The poster is a friend of this family, too. But his/her discomfort at being at the party is stronger than if these friends needed his help. So be it.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#V

 

[Gertabelle]

The poster is a friend of this family, too. But his/her discomfort at being at the party is stronger than if these friends needed his help. So be it.

Well, for those of us who believe in God and in His Church’s ability to teach and inform, we believe there is a greater “help” that can be given – and that is prayer and sacrifice. We also judge our actions against the shortness of this life and the need to prepare for the life to come.

I can see you don’t agree with us heartless, ignorant, unenlightened Catholics… but then again, we may have more depth than you know. Just maybe

Just as this thread continues, so a conversation between the OP and his/her father can also continue – regardless of your judgments on the OP’s character.

Gertie

 

[NeedImprovement]

 Ah. Well if it's not considered marriage in God's eyes...then I guess he is not really getting married!  . . .

Yes . I believe I’d definitely already dealt with that clearly here:

It isn’t marriage ; and it never will be marriage -

If you wish to speak about the young man’s eternal fate being between him and God, we should begin by acknowledging that whatever type of union he decides to enter into with a member of the same sex , it will never be marriage. What the state says, means very little.

It will never be marriage in God’s eyes. :nope:

… And if that’s the case, there should be no problem with attending the party! …

Yeah …sure … So the problem the OP posted about is just an imaginary one – right ? :dts: I would’ve thought most people posting in this thread already know what a conscience is.

Eventually, it all boils down to active homosexuality (something the son and his partner may perhaps already be practicing ) and active homosexuality is a sin which is “morally indefensible” . As George Stegmeir pointed out right at the beginning in post # 2, and as Bookcat’s posts continue to reiterate : Attending such an event lends tacit approval to the situation , which is also conducive to sin.

By attending that party, one should concommitantly acknowledge that in so doing, they are encouraging two males to commit sodomy, and to live the illusion of believing that God approves of homosexual acts. Someone should point out that heaintheavy’s chronology is flawed : The OP said it was an *engagement party *– not a marriage reception , so we cannot yet rule out the possibly of ample time and circumstances existing which might allow for the man’s son to have a change of heart and to back out of it – something that would seem much more likely if encouragement to commit sodomy were less prevalent.

Before we post here at CAF on this subject, we are requested to read the Church Teaching on Same Sex Issues from this sticky thread .

Some posts have already cited some articles of the faith from the CCC contained in that thread. The sticky thread also contains several excerpts from the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH ;CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS .

… an excerpt from that document published by the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH :

. . . Where the government’s policy is de facto tolerance and there is no explicit legal recognition of homosexual unions, it is necessary to distinguish carefully the various aspects of the problem. Moral conscience requires that, in every occasion, Christians give witness to the whole moral truth, which is contradicted both by approval of homosexual acts and unjust discrimination against homosexual persons. Therefore, discreet and prudent actions can be effective; these might involve: unmasking the way in which such tolerance might be exploited or used in the service of ideology; stating clearly the immoral nature of these unions; reminding the government of the need to contain the phenomenon within certain limits so as to safeguard public morality and, above all, to avoid exposing young people to erroneous ideas about sexuality and marriage that would deprive them of their necessary defences and contribute to the spread of the phenomenon. Those who would move from tolerance to the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons need to be reminded that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Of course, some religions do see gay marriage as valid, do they not? .

Really …? Which ones are you thinking of ? I know Christianity condemns homosexual acts as sinful. Other major religions which also consider homosexual acts sinful are Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Jehova’s Witnesses … perhaps you had a more minor obscure religion in mind ?

And none of these have ever held that the sexual union of two men or two women to be either a tenet of their faith or an institution based on their beliefs .

This next part was so great, I think it really is in a class all by itself :

… and if this man is getting married in a religious ceremony, then the God he and his congregation believe and worship do, indeed, believe this marriage to be real. …

That has to be one of the most superb examples , one of the most classic expressions of the working definition of moral relativism. summed up into one single phrase that I’ve read in a long while. Thankyou for that ! -

Unfortunately, moral relativism is diametrically opposed to the Catholic faith. This thread deals with the one true God – the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob – the same, one, Godhead of the Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit . If one goes back and reads the posts, not only is the father of the OP a practicing Catholic (post # 1) , but JMJ2013 further goes on to explain that both the homosexual who wishes to enter into a same sex union with another man, and his father are also Catholic :

They are Catholic as well…

So in keeping with the program, other “gods” (false gods) are, for practical purposes, virtually out of the picture unless any more information comes to light.

It is almost to be expected that certain people who have an inherent need to express contempt for Catholic teaching will post here at CAF (and not surprisingly attempting to further the homosexual agenda in so doing), but when those types advise another who is Catholic to also show contempt for Catholic teaching , they are exercising anaemically poor judgement. .:doh2:

Posts here positing that a father would somehow be happy that his son was about to enter into a civilly ratified homosexual union with another man are not only misleading, they demonstrate a superficial comprehension of fatherhood : Comments proposing that a son who is about to be sodomized on a regular basis and to sodomize another man on a regular basis (with its inherent increased health risks) could somehow give joy to a father - let alone solace, in my opinion , suggests that their author may be even more poorly grounded in reality than he/she is in the Catholic faith.

 

[NeedImprovement]

. . . Just as this thread continues, so a conversation between the OP and his/her father can also continue – regardless of your judgments on the OP’s character.

Gertie

I personally find the OP’s posts refreshing ; to see such a firm grip on their Catholic faith, that no one is going to be able to wrestle It away from them.

---

@ JMJ2013 : I’ll be praying for you, your father and for the other family who are friends with you.

BTW , please don’t let yourself be intimidated by comments such as those in post # 5 . It isn’t necessary to ask someone’s age on these forums - we can ignore questions like that. Some father’s who have transmitted the faith to their children , may in certain situations during their lifetime, need to be re-educated in their faith. Particularly on this subject which is so insidiously forced on today’s society. That can, on occasion, provide for a particularly edifying moment for the parent in question - being strengthened in their belief by their own children.

We recall in Daniel, that age never really enters into it. The elders said to him when he was just a youth Daniel 13:50 NAB ]* “Come, sit with us and inform us, since God has given you the prestige of old age.” * . Daniel had wisdom . You have sound insights into our faith.

Several things which might be helpful:

Recalling the excerpt posted from the document CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

these might involve: unmasking the way in which such tolerance might be exploited or used in the service of ideology;

.

This agenda, the objective of the homosexual lobby in particular, to normalize the deviant behaviour of active homosexuality , is extremely deceptive . A lot of smart politicians and judges have been duped (or frightened by threatened job security) into condoning it . . . others are simply activists.

One of the purposes of several of my posts being on the graphic side, is that all this fluffy talk about normalizing active homosexuality remains largely expressed in generalities. They argue in abstracts and avoid the real issues, the facts - the actual truth, which becomes evident when what they propose is brought to its logical conclusion ; preferring to accuse people who begin to “unmask” this type of offensive as bigots, or those who practice discrimination . If anything at all were true, it’s the opposite ; that the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith is what is really under attack by these militants.

I thank you for posting what you did and will pray for your family and the other Catholic family who are your friends. I believe praying for the entire family would accomplish much more than attending would.

We do well to remember, once more drawing from that excerpt CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

. . . that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.

Here is the conclusion from the document which was written by Cardinal Ratzinger and promulgated and approved by His Holiness Blessed John Paul II (highlights mine) :

CONCLUSION

1. The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions. The common good requires that laws recognize, promote and protect marriage as the basis of the family, the primary unit of society. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend these values, for the good of men and women and for the good of society itself.

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, in the Audience of March 28, 2003, approved the present Considerations, adopted in the Ordinary Session of this Congregation, and ordered their publication.
Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, June 3, 2003, Memorial of Saint Charles Lwanga and his Companions, Martyrs.
Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect

Angelo Amato, S.D.B.
Titular Archbishop of Sila
Secretary

 

[Gertabelle]

@NeedImprovement :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Gert

 

[NeedImprovement]

@NeedImprovement :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Gert

God bless you Gertabelle . It took a lot of effort ( and much more prayer than typing ) .

This homosexual agenda - particularly nowdays, is intensely manipulative in its nature . The more legislation that is passed, the more oppressive it is likely to become. We’ve already witnessed how it manipulates politicians and judges , but it really does a number on the families too. So the OP’s post is close to the heart of the matter.

Mothers and fathers actually experience an encroachment on their own freedom of conscience , fearing that to obey their own consciences, might offend their child in question.

But what is really happening ? Commonly, it is a self-indulgent child which actually causes the parents grief. Subsequently, the parent is coerced into pretending everything is okay - even into going against their own consciences.

That is never a healthy thing. I don’t think those parents, or the OP’s father should be forced into pretending everything is okay . In simple terms, we call that lying to ourselves.

 

[Gertabelle]

God bless you Gertabelle . It took a lot of effort ( and much more prayer than typing ) .

This homosexual agenda - particularly nowdays, is intensely manipulative in its nature . The more legislation that is passed, the more oppressive it is likely to become. We’ve already witnessed how it manipulates politicians and judges , but it really does a number on the families too. So the OP’s post is close to the heart of the matter.

Mothers and fathers actually experience an encroachment on their own freedom of conscience , fearing that to obey their own consciences, might offend their child in question.

But what is really happening ? Commonly, it is a self-indulgent child which actually causes the parents grief. Subsequently, the parent is coerced into pretending everything is okay - even into going against their own consciences.

That is never a healthy thing. I don’t think those parents, or the OP’s father should be forced into pretending everything is okay . In simple terms, we call that lying to ourselves.

Well said. I have had many friends in the GLBTT community who talk about their parents’ refusal to accept their lifestyle as a failure on their parents part. The GLBTT community rallies around them – poor, poor people – and offers them a substitute sort of family. Everything is seen as the fault of the parents not to change their entire belief system – and the whole “born that way” belief makes enemies and bullies out of any family member who doesn’t buckle.

As a former “lesbian” I saw this all the time. It was almost a badge of honor to talk about family rejection.

OTOH, I find myself walking a fine line with friends now who are self-identified as GLBTT. I do not hide my Catholicism in any way – in fact, they are well-aware of my beliefs. But I do my best to love them and serve them as I would Christ Himself. Thankfully, none have asked me to attend any relationship celebrations.

There’s the challenge with everyone in our lives – to love and serve, without supporting commitment to sin (our own sins, and those of the people we encounter). I fear I’m not saying this correctly

Anyway, as a woman who no longer has a trace of same-sex-attraction (after some 10 years in that lifestyle), my prayers and love constantly go out to all those affected by SSA.

Gertie

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I’m sure both the gay men getting married and your father know what the bible says.

Most gay people know that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. They get told that by multiple people all their life. They already made the choice to ignore what the bible says about it. There comes a time when you can only tell somebody something so many times when you just have to accept that they have free will.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

heaintheavy

**Assuming your father doesn’t believe in gay unions, I think he is showing a lot of courage and love by attending the party…and as it’s a family friend, I’d suggest you go with him if you care and love this friend, too. **

The father should do what he is supposed to do if one of his own male friends married another man. Stay away. It shows more courage to stand up to the sins of your friend or your friend’s son than to pretend those sins ought to be celebrated.

Don’t let heaintheavy burden you with his phoney advice.

 

[Gertabelle]

I’m sure both the gay men getting married and your father know what the bible says.

Most gay people know that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. They get told that by multiple people all their life. They already made the choice to ignore what the bible says about it. There comes a time when you can only tell somebody something so many times when you just have to accept that they have free will.

I don’t think I’ve seen a single post on this thread that advocated telling the gay men involved what the Bible or the Catholic Church teach. This has been about the OP’s conversation with his/her father about attending an engagement party for two men.

And accepting that they have free will doesn’t mean we have to change our beliefs and celebrate all their choices.

Gertie

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

How old are you? No parent wants a morality lecture from their child, especially if that child is s minor. It really isn’t your place and there is probably nothing you could say that he would be responsive to.

He’s a practicing Catholic, so presumably he’s the one who brought you up in the faith. He’s probably not going to take your (name removed by moderator)ut well.

He can at least TRY.

Respectfully, lovingly, and sensitively, of course.

Remember------as a PRACTICING Catholic, he must be faithful to the beliefs and magisterium set down by-----Holy Mother Church.
All his son is doing is reminding him of that.

Nothing wrong with that.

Indeed.

 

[PatriceA]

He can at least TRY.

Respectfully, lovingly, and sensitively, of course.

Remember------as a PRACTICING Catholic, he must be faithful to the beliefs and magisterium set down by-----Holy Mother Church.
All his son is doing is reminding him of that.

Nothing wrong with that.

Indeed.

I agree. If it was me, I’d have one conversation about the situation, and one conversation only and then my father would have to make up his own mind what he thinks he needs to do. I wouldn’t feel right not having at least one discussion about the party, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be a lecture, just a conversation gently reminding my father of the teachings of the Catholic Church concerning a situation such as it presents itself.

 

[JMJ2013]

I will have one soon thanks!

I agree. If it was me, I’d have one conversation about the situation, and one conversation only and then my father would have to make up his own mind what he thinks he needs to do. I wouldn’t feel right not having at least one discussion about the party, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be a lecture, just a conversation gently reminding my father of the teachings of the Catholic Church concerning a situation such as it presents itself.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I’m sure both the gay men getting married and your father know what the bible says.

Most gay people know that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. They get told that by multiple people all their life. They already made the choice to ignore what the bible says about it. There comes a time when you can only tell somebody something so many times when you just have to accept that they have free will.

No kidding. However, this has not stopped homosexual theologians, exegetes, and scholars in re-interpreting biblical verses condemning homosexual acts to change what has been read and understood via tradition and the holy book. Even if the mental health profession no longer categorizes homosexuality as a mental illness, there is no way to change the moral teaching that has been orally taught and written down for thousands of years.

In this age, there are those who would insist that ‘marriage’ between same sex partners can be true, as if their act of intimacy can ever be natural or ‘marital.’ Nay. Notwithstanding the allowance by legislative and judicial decisions to legalize SS’M’ in certain parts of the country and the Western world, the natural law cannot be erased.

SS’M’ brings on a whole slew of potential areas of discomfort, if not conflict, in social intercourse and discourse. The next thread we will see may be something like: can a faithful Catholic or a Catholic family member attend a baby shower for same sex parents [who could not be able, hard as they may try, to naturally reproduce an offspring unless an opposite sexed third party is involved] without causing scandal or giving the wrong message of support for the same sex relationship.

I actually had an exchange in this forum with someone, a university student, who seriously believes that it is only a matter of time when science and technology will be able to introduce same sex reproduction in humans. In that scenario, I guess some will have to decide if they should attend baby showers for the coming of same sex reproduced offsprings! You can’t make this up.
,

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I don’t think I’ve seen a single post on this thread that advocated telling the gay men involved what the Bible or the Catholic Church teach. This has been about the OP’s conversation with his/her father about attending an engagement party for two men.

And accepting that they have free will doesn’t mean we have to change our beliefs and celebrate all their choices.

Gertie

My whole post was talking about how his Dad already knows the bible says homosexuality is wrong. He can try and tell his dad not to go to the party as much as he wants, but at the end of the day, it is his fathers choice.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I’m sure both the gay men getting married and your father know what the bible says.

Most gay people know that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. They get told that by multiple people all their life. They already made the choice to ignore what the bible says about it. There comes a time when you can only tell somebody something so many times when you just have to accept that they have free will.

You’d be surprised how limited many gays’ knowledge of Christianity is, many have experience limited to people like the Westboro Baptists.

 

[NeedImprovement]

. . . It shows more courage to stand up to the sins of your friend or your friend’s son than to pretend those sins ought to be celebrated.

Don’t let heaintheavy burden you with his phoney advice.

A fine comparative working definition of courage to add to the collection of definitions .

So why don’t we now try to visualize what would happen if we were to thinki this thing through a little further :

Let’s assume the son, having no change of heart at this time, went through with the engagement party, and that the OP’s father attended the engagement party …

… and that the son continued in his way and did actually enter into a ( it will never be marriage) “gay -]marriage/-]” …

If the OP’s father attended the engagement party … Can anyone seriously believe that the OP’s father would not consequently be formally invited to both attend the (it will never be marriage) “gay -]marriage/-]” , and to attend the subsequent reception , to continue , as Charlemange II so aptly puts it celebrating the sin ?

This is a valuable example of how personal consciences can become ensnared when we erroneously believe ourselves to be practicing a charitable act. Step back and take a look at it . Once a person attends the engagement party , the door of the trap begins to close behind them .

Apply a little circumspect observation to these matters, and it becomes apparent that one main thrust of the militant homosexual lobby (via media & communications) actually attempts to gets right in each person’s face and claim, “I am your conscience”.

As Catholics and Christians, we don’t celebrate sin - we can’t. We celebrate forgiveness of sin - just as the father did when he got his son back [Luke 15:11-32] . The only way we are able to do this is by having the Church’s help, so we may always be able to to correctly identify our own sins - first personally, and then by extension, socially.