Gay engagement party

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To answer your question, I may very well NOT attend the engagement party of my child if they are entering into an invalid marriage. We are bound to not attend any wedding ceremony that would lead to an invalid marriage, regardless of the couple’s sexual orientation. Attending an engagement party of said couple could very well give scandal.

Its not about being in the company of a sinner. It is all about the sacrament of matrimony and what the Catholic Church teaches about what is and isn’t a vaild marriage. A marriage between two gay people, not a vaild marriage within the teachings of the Catholic Church anymore than a second marriage for a divorced Catholic that failed to get an annulment. Attending either example could give scandal.
I would attend. A lifetime of bitterness, anger, and hardness of heart would far outweigh my desire to observe the letter of the law, however righteous that observance may be. The sacrament of matrimony is hardly threatened by being present at gatherings of family and friends, whether you agree or disagree with their lifestyles. Depends on the specific circumstance though, if the people at this party are dancing naked and drinking heavily, you probably ought to stay home.

Maybe some of you have noticed, (maybe not), Jesus speaks of sexual sins in how many places in the gospels? How many? How often? How fervently and passionately does he condemn those who fail in sexual matters? Adultery? Homosexuality? Anybody have an answer? Use Bible quotations to justify your answer, please.

How about hypocrisy and hardness of heart? How many places and times does our Lord and Savior speak of Pharissaic hypocrisy, hardenss of heart, and unforgiveness? And condemn such rigid attitudes?
 
heaintheavy

**From what I understand, Jesus is not recorded as saying anything specific in the bible about homosexuality at all.
Can you give us the direct quotes? **

Well, obviously he doesn’t use the word “homosexuality” because that is a 20th century word. But at the heart of homosexuality is sex between men, and that is designated by the ancient term “sodomy” (oral or anal). Paul used the term as we use it today. Jesus would certainly have known the same use of it in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah.

“Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words–go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. I tell you the truth, the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than such a town on the judgment day.” Matthew 10:14

Jesus is looking for a horrible sin which is less horrible, but nearly as horrible, as the sin of refusing to hear the gospel. He found it in a comparison with the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah, well known to be the sin of sodomy.

Paul advances the sin of sodomy as a great sin as well. Do you think Paul was not in tune with the teachings of Christ? Do you think he would even think of contradicting the teachings of Christ?
Well, since sodomy is any “unnatural act” (i.e. not vaginal intercourse) And studies have shown that ~90% of heterosexual couple have engaged in oral sex then I suppose that means we should shun non-Catholic engagement parties.

IIRC God was planning to obliterate Sodom before he sent the angels to double check the city was thoroughly corrupt. The forcible sodomizing of a man at that time was considered morally reprehensible because it in effect psychologically strips him of his masculinity making him subhuman. As to how Lot could possibly justify offering his daughters that is because in Middle Eastern culture guests are extremely well treated, they will be fed even if it means the family (including children!) doesn’t eat.

Whether sodomy being wrong is in the Old Testament or even New Testament is fairly irrelevant as the prohibition against inherently sterile acts is rooted in natural law. That said Paul ranted against homosexual acts specifying both the person “on top” (sodomite) and “on bottom” (catamite).
 
We know that oral sex is accepted by the church so what about heterosexual couples who engage in sodomy of the back passage? Are they sinning too? Or is it alright because its a male and a female?
 
We know that oral sex is accepted by the church so what about heterosexual couples who engage in sodomy of the back passage? Are they sinning too? Or is it alright because its a male and a female?
Partially correct about oral sex being allowed by the Church. If the act leads the male to climax outside of his wife, it is not allowed. Sodomy, not allowed, because it is an act that is not open to life or procreation,(same reason for why the previous situation is not allowed) even between a married male and his wife.
 
Partially correct about oral sex being allowed by the Church. If the act leads the male to climax outside of his wife, it is not allowed. Sodomy, not allowed, because it is an act that is not open to life or procreation,(same reason for why the previous situation is not allowed) even between a married male and his wife.
What about sodomized play without him actually going inside her? Wouldn’t that just be considered foreplay and oral sex?
 
Not according to Catholic teachings because it has the risk of the husband not being able to complete the marital act for procreational purposes.

This link might help: twotlj.org/G-2-9-E.html
I wouldn’t do any anal play anyways, I was just curious because somebody mentioned that the whole gay relationship was about sodomy.
 

Maybe some of you have noticed, (maybe not), Jesus speaks of sexual sins in how many places in the gospels? How many? How often? How fervently and passionately does he condemn those who fail in sexual matters? Adultery? Homosexuality? Anybody have an answer? Use Bible quotations to justify your answer, please. . . .
Matthew 5: 27-28

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Also EWTN, expert/answer,The Ten Commandments, Colin Donovan STL,
*Cf. Mt 19:18; Mk 7:22; Eph 5:3-4; Mt 22:39-40; Rom 13:9. *
Commands: Respect for the marriage bed, use of sexual powers (chastity).
Forbids: Adultery, fornication, sexual acts preparatory to intercourse outside marriage, masturbation, homosexuality, pornography, prostitution, contraception, etc
Jesus was quoting from the Ten Commandments - that’s how old it is. We should do our best even to steer clear of porn … that’s how new it is.

… Rather ironic,maybe even peculiar, in that Catholics are usually accused by non-Catholics of not knowing their bible.

Maybe it’s an indicator that some memebers would benefit much more from participating in the sacred scripture forums than they would from social justice and/or moral theology forums .
 
Matthew 5: 27-28

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Also EWTN, expert/answer,The Ten Commandments, Colin Donovan STL,

Jesus was quoting from the Ten Commandments - that’s how old it is. We should do our best even to steer clear of porn … that’s how new it is.

… Rather ironic,maybe even peculiar, in that Catholics are usually accused by non-Catholics of not knowing their bible.

Maybe it’s an indicator that some memebers would benefit much more from participating in the sacred scripture forums than they would from social justice and/or moral theology forums .
We get that you understand that things are forbidden.
.
The verse you use takes us from the merely negative precept of the law to the positive. All scripture is rooted in, and fuifilled by, Jesus himself, the law of love. This is a very challenging verse. It challenges the Pahrisee in all of us to grow from rigidity of mere observance, to the law of love himself, rooted in the law (not one stroke of the law will disappear), but the law fulfilled. Notice that Jesus expands the truth of the verse from it’s righteous condemnation of the specific act of adultery to a searching of your heart and will,to where the seed of sin exists. Did you read the whole chapter? It would seem to conflict with your viewpoint.

Here are a couple of other scripture verses that are challenging.
Matthew 9
10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Mark 2
15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 15:

1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the **Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” ** 3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Compare and contrast Jesus’ attitudes toward sinful human beings with our own.
Does Jesus attitude, presence with, and interaction with (speaking with, eating with, touching,healing), sinners, imply His acceptance of their sin?
Does His interaction with sinners do away with The Law?
Are we called to follow Christ and the one true church, or to live our own private Gospel based on superficial and rigid readings of scripture?

As for me,I do not want to sit on the sidelines muttering about people’s sin, I want to do the will of Jesus Christ to the best of my ability. That means living fully with other sinners, in a sinful world, while not being conformed to it.
 
Are we called to follow Christ, or to live our own private Gospel based on superficial readings of scripture?
I don’t know about you, but as a Catholic, I’m bound to follow the teachings of my faith and the Roman Catholic Church, which is not based on a private gospel or superficial readings of scripture as you put it. The Church is very clear about the teachings on this subject.
 
I don’t know about you, but as a Catholic, I’m bound to follow the teachings of my faith and the Roman Catholic Church, which is not based on a private gospel or superficial readings of scripture as you put it. The Church is very clear about the teachings on this subject.
Thank you, exactly my point.
 
Thank you, exactly my point.
Is it your point? You seem to be advocating for the OP and their father to attend the engagement party. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, correct me if I’m wrong. The Catholic Church teaches us to avoid occasions of sin and to not cause scandal by our presence. Attending the party would do both.
 
Is it your point? You seem to be advocating for the OP and their father to attend the engagement party. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, correct me if I’m wrong. The Catholic Church teaches us to avoid occasions of sin and to not cause scandal by our presence. Attending the party would do both.
If you are a recovering gay person and the gathering would lead you into sin, I agree 100%.If you attend the party knowing that there will be strippers and cross dressing, you probably shouldn’t go.
If these are distant acquantances and you are going just because you are curious, stay away.
If attending the party would lead you to look at gay porn, stay away by all means.
If this is your nephew or another close family member, and “normal” activites are taking place, you should go. Not approve of sin, but go and be there. This is not participating iin sin or causing scandal (well, may be scandal for mutterers and gossips but you can’t do anything about that).

Are you called to live as Jesus did? As specifically expressed in the Gospel passages above? (And there are lots more) Or not? That is a choice we all have to make. The Catholic Church is Scripture, is authoritative teaching, Is Jesus himself. The Church does NOT teach that scripture gives us merely the directive to avoid sin. You would be hard pressed to back that up with narrowly selected bible verses, taken apart from the full teaching of the one true Catholic Church.
Think about it,If Jesus lived his life in that way,there would be no healing, no forgiveness, there would be NO CROSS (willingly at the hands of sinful men). That is not Catholicism.
 
You are missing the point. Its a party for a couple that is entering into an invalid marriage, doesn’t matter if they are gay or not. We as Catholics are bound by the teachings of the Catholic Church to not attend these types of parties, regardless of how much we love the people involved. It wouldn’t matter if it was two heterosexuals that are entering into an invalid marriage, still couldn’t attend.
 
You are missing the point. Its a party for a couple that is entering into an invalid marriage, doesn’t matter if they are gay or not. We as Catholics are bound by the teachings of the Catholic Church to not attend these types of parties, regardless of how much we love the people involved. It wouldn’t matter if it was two heterosexuals that are entering into an invalid marriage, still couldn’t attend.
Show us in the catechism specifically please, Or in the authoritative teaching of the magisterium, or especially in the life of Jesus, that it is sinful to be at a gathering like this. Specifically please. Again assuming you aren’t engaging in behavior that is prohibited, and that you done condone sin, or encourage others to sin. There is a difference between making sound judgements, and being judgemental. There is a difference, one is wisdom, one is thoroughly condemned.

So you disagree with Jesus’ actions in the gospels? Those are very specific events. I assume you take the Gospels as part of revelation expressed by the Catholic Church.
 
Dakota

**Whether sodomy being wrong is in the Old Testament or even New Testament is fairly irrelevant as the prohibition against inherently sterile acts is rooted in natural law. That said Paul ranted against homosexual acts specifying both the person “on top” (sodomite) and “on bottom” (catamite). **

This, of course, is just what the Protestants want to hear from a so-called Catholic, that the Bible is fairly irrelevant to what we believe.
 
Show us in the catechism specifically please, Or in the authoritative teaching of the magisterium, or especially in the life of Jesus, that it is sinful to be at a gathering like this. Specifically please. Again assuming you aren’t engaging in behavior that is prohibited, and that you done condone sin, or encourage others to sin. There is a difference between making sound judgements, and being judgemental. There is a difference, one is wisdom, one is thoroughly condemned.

So you disagree with Jesus’ actions in the gospels? Those are very specific events. I assume you take the Gospels as part of revelation expressed by the Catholic Church.
Here is a rather lengthly but thorough read: cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=137
 
Here is a rather lengthly but thorough read: cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=137
Thank you this is very good exposition of Church teaching. very thoughtful .
:
This illustrates the dilmma very well:

There is a real concern that if a person refuses to attend the wedding, a rift in friendship could occur. This division could hinder any witness to the truth, and this concern is especially serious if the wedding involves a close friend or family member. This concern alone must not hinder our witness (cf. Lk. 12:51-53), but it can guide our actions as we fulfill our obligation to bring others to Christ. It could be that not attending would destroy any possible chance to witness the truth to the persons involved, especially if no reason is given for not attending. It could also be that not attending, and giving reasons for the absence, will help the couple choose the way of Christ. If a Catholic chooses to attend, he will want to ensure that no one considers his presence to be an affirmation of the sin.

the conslusion is a good summation

Conclusion

Anyone invited to the wedding of a couple whose marriage does not promote the truth should prayerfully consider his actions. Using the teachings explained in the Catechism, he should ask ourselves, “How can I avoid participating in their sin, yet encourage their salvation? How can I avoid scandal, yet encourage the salvation of others?” Anyone in this situation should discuss the matter with a spiritual director or in the confessional before making the decision. Whatever one’s decision may be, a Catholic should strive to give a clear and charitable witness to the faith. The Catholic Church does not teach whether we must or must not attend. Christ does say we must witness to the truth in a charitable manner. If loved ones or friends go through with the wedding, a Catholic should look for opportunities to maintain contact and witness to the truth. Above all, our decisions and actions must promote the salvation of souls. In fostering the salvation of souls, the Two Great Commandments are fulfilled.
 
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