Gay gene: Real or fictitious?

[on_the_hill]

“Clear” that’s it’s not a choice? How do you know that? And even if we stipulate that the **tendency **towards homosexuality is not a choice, the **act **certainly **is **a choice. That is certainly clear, because they’re not being forced to perform the act (with the obvious exception of rape, of course).

I believe it’s not a choice. At least, I’ve never met a gay man who decided to be gay.

However, whether or not a person chooses to act on it is a choice, insofar as *any *sex act is a choice. (it should go without saying excepting people who are coerced in some fashion–but I better state that anyway.)

There’s an interesting parallel here. On the one hand, we have people with SSA whom we admonish to avoid gay sex. On the other hand, we have young men complaining how they are tempted to sin by immodestly dressed women. In the former, people tend to condemn gay men who have gay sex. In the latter, a fair portion of people feel it acceptable to reduce the culpability of young straight men who are temped to sin by shifting some of the blame onto the women for their immodest ways.

Gay sex = your fault
Straight sexual sins = MTV Spring Break 2015’s fault.

 

[epan]

Here are a couple of other studies.

The first if from the FDA (very pro homosexual administration) currently on their website.

*A history of male-to-male sex is associated with an increased risk for exposure to and transmission of certain infectious diseases, including HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. **Men who have had sex with other men represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet ***are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2010, MSM accounted for at least 61% of all new HIV infections in the U.S. and an estimated 77% of diagnosed HIV infections among males were attributed to male-to-male sexual contact. **Between 2008 and 2010, the estimated overall incidence of HIV was stable in the U.S. However the incidence in MSM increased 12%, while it decreased in other populations. **The largest increase was a 22% increase in MSM aged 13 to 24 years. Since younger individuals are more likely to donate blood, the implications of this increase in incidence need to be further evaluated.
fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/BloodBloodProducts/QuestionsaboutBlood/ucm108186.htm

But please keep in mind that the majority of HIV infections worldwide is among heterosexuals. It is fair to say that sexually promiscuous people, whether straight or gay, are at high risk for STD’s, including HIV.

The second from the Family Research Council in 2007 (conservative family oriented group).

*“On average, in Norway and Denmark – where same-sex marriage is legal – married lesbians lived to age 56 and married gay men to age 52,” said one of the study’s presenters, Dr. Paul Cameron of the conservative Colorado-based think tank Family Research Institute, in a press statement.

In the study, Denmark, a country with the longest history of gay marriages, reportedly recorded that **men in heterosexual marriages between the years 1990 and 2002 died at a median age of 74 while the 561 gay-partnered men documented a median age of death of 51. ***In Norway, men married to women died at a median age of 77 while the gay-partnered men died at a median age of 52.
christianpost.com/news/new-study-finds-early-death-in-gay-marriages-26558/
It is interesting that this takes account of “married” (presumably monogamous?) homosexual relationships and has significant difference.

Please keep in mind that the Frisch study has been dismissed as flawed. Even elementary textbooks in epidemiology warn against such undue comparisons between group averages because they lead to seemingly common-sense yet seriously flawed conclusions. The groups which Frisch compared were not comparable in epidemiological terms.

 

[epan]

No, it’s not a funny video. Two others thought I was saying that, as well, so in post #15 I said:

“Clear” that’s it’s not a choice? How do you know that? And even if we stipulate that the **tendency **towards homosexuality is not a choice, the **act **certainly **is **a choice. That is certainly clear, because they’re not being forced to perform the act (with the obvious exception of rape, of course).

Did you choose your sexual orientation? I’m so tired of the ridiculous claim that sexual orientation is a choice. There are mountains of research which indicate otherwise. Anecdotally, I have never known a person who “chose” to be heterosexual, or a person who chose to be homosexual.

So, tell me honestly. On what day did you choose to be homosexual, or heterosexual, whichever the case may be? Do you remember that day? Did you intentionally decide one day which gender to be attracted and fall in love with? It’s a big decision in life. I’m sure you can remember the day very clearly, if you did in fact make that choice. I would like to find just one person who did that.

Try to be honest and use some common sense in these discussions.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Here are a couple of other studies.

…

The second from the Family Research Council in 2007 (conservative family oriented group).

*“On average, in Norway and Denmark – where same-sex marriage is legal – married lesbians lived to age 56 and married gay men to age 52,” said one of the study’s presenters, Dr. Paul Cameron of the conservative Colorado-based think tank Family Research Institute, in a press statement.

In the study, Denmark, a country with the longest history of gay marriages, reportedly recorded that **men in heterosexual marriages between the years 1990 and 2002 died at a median age of 74 while the 561 gay-partnered men documented a median age of death of 51. ***In Norway, men married to women died at a median age of 77 while the gay-partnered men died at a median age of 52.
christianpost.com/news/new-study-finds-early-death-in-gay-marriages-26558/
It is interesting that this takes account of “married” (presumably monogamous?) homosexual relationships and has significant difference.

So while we need to have compassion with those in our community who identify as something other than heterosexual, we also need to acknowledge living that lifestyle will have pretty significant negative effect on the person.

Pax.

Study shares the same crippling flaw that the one that showed left handed people died much younger than right handed people did.

Read the BBC point out the error in the left handed people die younger article bbc.com/news/magazine-23988352

 

[ChurchSoldier]

But please keep in mind that the majority of HIV infections worldwide is among heterosexuals. It is fair to say that sexually promiscuous people, whether straight or gay, are at high risk for STD’s, including HIV.

Please keep in mind that the Frisch study has been dismissed as flawed. Even elementary textbooks in epidemiology warn against such undue comparisons between group averages because they lead to seemingly common-sense yet seriously flawed conclusions. The groups which Frisch compared were not comparable in epidemiological terms.

It’s kind of interesting how proponents always claim “the study is flawed”.

You are welcome to present studies which provide support for your point of view using actual populations.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Study shares the same crippling flaw that the one that showed left handed people died much younger than right handed people did.

Read the BBC point out the error in the left handed people die younger article bbc.com/news/magazine-23988352

How so?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

But please keep in mind that the majority of HIV infections worldwide is among heterosexuals. It is fair to say that sexually promiscuous people, whether straight or gay, are at high risk for STD’s, including HIV.

Please keep in mind that the Frisch study has been dismissed as flawed. Even elementary textbooks in epidemiology warn against such undue comparisons between group averages because they lead to seemingly common-sense yet seriously flawed conclusions. The groups which Frisch compared were not comparable in epidemiological terms.

It’s always the study…

Feel free to present your own epidemiologicaly correct research providing a counter point.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Study shares the same crippling flaw that the one that showed left handed people died much younger than right handed people did.

Read the BBC point out the error in the left handed people die younger article bbc.com/news/magazine-23988352

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe you can explain how you see it in relationship to this thread.

The problem I see with applying the article in this case is there is evidence here in the FDA claims that men having sex with men is a documentable hazardous behavior which leads to increased incidence of a life limiting illness (hiv).

There is a direct correlation between life limiting illness and decreased lifespan (by definition, of course).

As such, we can pretty reasonably expect a correlation between those participating in behavior which increases the likelihood of a life limiting illness and shorter lives.

There is no such corresponding correlation in the article that being left handed produces a life limiting condition or situation which in turn would cause a decreased life expectancy.

 

[Rau]

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe you can explain how you see it in relationship to this thread.

The problem I see with applying the article in this case is there is evidence here in the FDA claims that men having sex with men is a documentable hazardous behavior which leads to increased incidence of a life limiting illness (hiv).

There is a direct correlation between life limiting illness and decreased lifespan.

As such, we can pretty reasonably expect a correlation between those participating in behavior which increases the likelihood of a life limiting illness and shorter lives.

There is no such corresponding correlation in the article that being left handed produces a life limiting condition or situation which in turn would cause a decreased life expectancy.

Monogamous sexual relations may be relatively “safe”, even if same sex, though I would have thought anal penetration is unhygienic.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

But please keep in mind that the majority of HIV infections worldwide is among heterosexuals. It is fair to say that sexually promiscuous people, whether straight or gay, are at high risk for STD’s, including HIV.

How true, but the thread is about homosexuality.

Please keep in mind that the Frisch study has been dismissed as flawed. Even elementary textbooks in epidemiology warn against such undue comparisons between group averages because they lead to seemingly common-sense yet seriously flawed conclusions. The groups which Frisch compared were not comparable in epidemiological terms.

We obviously lie on differing sides of the discussion. Here’s where I see the weakness in your argument. You are using generalities to counter statistical information. What is missing from your critique of the presented studies are statistical data showing the opposite.

As I mentioned to the other poster, there is a direct correlation between homosexual behavior and negative consequences relating to health. The underlying principle of your dismissal of the studies is that there is no negative effect on the physical life of someone participating in those activities (the homosexual lifestyle). So please present your data to that effect.

My theory is that there isn’t any. So many in society are busy wanting to promote homosexuality as a usual and normative behavior I can’t help but believe that if statistical support for that position were available, it would be posted everywhere.

Please don’t read this response as being written with anger, it is not. But if you want to support those who live the lifestyle please be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge it is bad for a human body, but that your support of the lifestyle outweighs the negative effects for those living it.

Pax.

 

[chris62]

Did you choose your sexual orientation? I’m so tired of the ridiculous claim that sexual orientation is a choice. There are mountains of research which indicate otherwise. Anecdotally, I have never known a person who “chose” to be heterosexual, or a person who chose to be homosexual.

So, tell me honestly. On what day did you choose to be homosexual, or heterosexual, whichever the case may be? Do you remember that day? Did you intentionally decide one day which gender to be attracted and fall in love with? It’s a big decision in life. I’m sure you can remember the day very clearly, if you did in fact make that choice. I would like to find just one person who did that.

Try to be honest and use some common sense in these discussions.

It is a choice to commit a homosexual act.
Which part of that don’t you understand.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

But please keep in mind that the majority of HIV infections worldwide is among heterosexuals. It is fair to say that sexually promiscuous people, whether straight or gay, are at high risk for STD’s, including HIV.

Please keep in mind that the Frisch study has been dismissed as flawed. Even elementary textbooks in epidemiology warn against such undue comparisons between group averages because they lead to seemingly common-sense yet seriously flawed conclusions. The groups which Frisch compared were not comparable in epidemiological terms.

I think it is safe to say we hold differing views on the subject of the thread.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe you can explain how you see it in relationship to this thread.

The problem I see with applying the article in this case is there is evidence here in the FDA claims that men having sex with men is a documentable hazardous behavior which leads to increased incidence of a life limiting illness (hiv).

There is a direct correlation between life limiting illness and decreased lifespan (by definition, of course).

As such, we can pretty reasonably expect a correlation between those participating in behavior which increases the likelihood of a life limiting illness and shorter lives.

There is no such corresponding correlation in the article that being left handed produces a life limiting condition or situation which in turn would cause a decreased life expectancy.

identification as LGBT skews younger as does left handednes.

 

[on_the_hill]

identification as LGBT skews younger as does left handednes.

I’m left handed, but I didn’t choose it. I’m kind of proud of it.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I’m left handed, but I didn’t choose it. I’m kind of proud of it.

The rate of people saying they are left handed has been going up for decades, this is because there used to be extreme stigma against lefties, the percent of people naturally left handed hasn’t been going up, just the percent of people willing to identify as such. Many people who were born left handed a century ago were coerced into doing everything right handed and as such they used their right hand to fit in easier.

The rate of people saying they are LGBT likewise has been going up for decades, this is because there used to be extreme stigma against LGBT people (and there still is stigma in some areas), the percent of people naturally LGBT hasn’t been going up, just the percent of people willing to identify as such. Many people who were born LGBT a century ago were coerced into acting heterosexual and cisgender and as such identification is lower in older cohorts.

 

[epan]

It is a choice to commit a homosexual act.
Which part of that don’t you understand.

Apparently, you don’t know what I understand, or don’t understand.

Of course, it is a choice to commit a sexual act. You failed to respond to my question.

The claim is often made that human sexual orientation is a “choice”. Do you agree with that statement, or do you not? I ask you because it seemed to me that you were making the case that sexual orientation is a choice. You challenged my statement that it is not.

If sexual orientation is a choice, then there must be a discrete moment, or series of choices. Since this is such a large decision in life, I believe that anyone who made such a choice would remember the process of arriving at choosing one’s sexual orientation.

I concede, and always have conceded, that particular sexual acts are made by choice.

Do you agree with me that sexual orientation is not a choice? If you disagree, then I would like to understand how your arrived at your opinion. Is it because you consciously made such a choice, or do you have some legitimate research (in large quantities) to back up your claim?

 

[Havard]

Apparently, you don’t know what I understand, or don’t understand.

Of course, it is a choice to commit a sexual act. You failed to respond to my question.

The claim is often made that human sexual orientation is a “choice”. Do you agree with that statement, or do you not?** I ask you because it seemed to me that you were making the case that sexual orientation is a choice. **You challenged my statement that it is not.

If sexual orientation is a choice, then there must be a discrete moment, or series of choices. Since this is such a large decision in life, I believe that anyone who made such a choice would remember the process of arriving at choosing one’s sexual orientation.

I concede, and always have conceded, that particular sexual acts are made by choice.

Do you agree with me that sexual orientation is not a choice? If you disagree, then I would like to understand how your arrived at your opinion. Is it because you consciously made such a choice, or do you have some legitimate research (in large quantities) to back up your claim?

I just read through the thread to catch up, and chris62 never said anything about sexual orientation. Might you have confused him with Larry1700?

 

[epan]

I just read through the thread to catch up, and chris62 never said anything about sexual orientation. Might you have confused him with Larry1700?

Perhaps. But the post stands. I do understand the difference between sexual orientation, and choice of sexual activity.

Chris62 was kind enough to tell me what my understanding is. His understanding of my understanding is incorrect, and apparently was internally generated in his (or her) own mind, and is not applicable to me.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Here are a few articles on the topic, from a variety of mainstream sources:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation
scitechdaily.com/homosexuality-might-develop-in-the-womb-due-to-epigenetic-changes/
berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2000/03/03-29-2000a.html

Interesting! Last time I looked for evidence that homosexuality was genetically caused, I actually found a whole lot of nothing other than a less than conclusve report regarding likelihood related to orientation of aunties/uncles… on top of that, I remember watching a show in which there were 2 identical twins, one being gay, the other straight… which shouldn’t apparently happen if sexuality were genetically ordered. I also found a something much more recent than all this, pursuing evidence of genetic links, that included the researcher mentioning that, although there was no concrete evidence of genetic causes of homosexuality, he was in no doubt that such was the cause, so I wonder whether the evidence in these reports was ever found to be conclusive or not?

 

[PaulGH]

So, is the “gay gene” real, or fictitious?

I don’t think that even medical experts know the answer to that question for sure. I have read that there is probably a mix of both nature and nurture (i.e., genetics and upbringing/environment) involved in sexual orientation, but I don’t think that science has a definitive answer to your question.

However, why does it matter if there is a “gay gene” or not? If we find out that there is such a gene, or if we find out that there isn’t, how would that change the moral dimension of homosexuality one way or the other?