Gay hostility in class

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Things are not a mental disorder just because you can’t choose them.
 
That was the third time I have supported my statement, this time with direct quotes from the Catechism. The Catechism presupposes that it is a mental disorder, and thus that those who suffer from it have a mental health issue. I accept that as a possibility, and perhaps a probability, but I also suspect that homosexuality is, at a minimum, self caused by some sinful choice.
Start said:
Things are not a mental disorder just because you can’t choose them.
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“Things” in general aren’t, but some “things” are. The way you can tell is if the mental condition is opposed to (or prevents the right function of) the natural order. Homosexuality is clearly and obviously and “intrinsically” opposed to the natural order, and possibly even prevents the right function of the brain. Therefore it is objectively a mental disorder of some kind. Either natural or self-caused.

edit: “order” would probably be more properly understood than “law”
 
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ccc 2357 “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained”

Bold mine.
 
Why would anyone choose to feel inclined that way? As much as it might be put across in the press and on these forums even that it’s easier to be gay that is not the case in real life.
 
Zealot said:
The Catechism presupposes that it is a mental disorder, and thus that those who suffer from it have a mental health issue.
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That would surely mean that those who commit homosexual acts are therefore not culpable? Take for example those who commit suicide but are afflicted with a mental illness; there is a tendency now to recognise that they are not culpable due to mental illness.
 
Better whitewash the depiction of the Last Judgement in the Sistine Chapel then. Can’t have the faithful looking upon the work of a mentally disordered or sinful man in the off chance he made a choice to be homosexual (plenty of evidence that Michaelangelo was gay or bisexual).
 
I never said it was easier. Sorry you must be responding to the wrong person.
 
What you’re saying is that when you tell them the truth, they get depressed…
You have drawn some interesting conclusions here, but there’s nothing to back them up but your opinion.
 
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Trevize said:
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goout:
The word disordered is used in regard to sexuality and many other acts and ideas to describe actions that are not ordered to a good end.
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The question is “what is a good end”? And also “who ordered it”? Nature certainly did not, so any reference to some nebulous “natural law” is incorrect.
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Two simple questions:
Do you think human existence is a good thing?
How does human existence come about, and how does it flourish?
Do these considerations steer your thinking to any exceptional values at all, or is it good to use a hammer to cut a cake? Yea, that’s one of the “multiple ends” of a hammer. You can cut a cake with a hammer.
Right?
Almost all human activities have multiple “ends”, and - as long as the activity is beneficial or neutral toward others - it is no one else’s business to declare which “end” is “good”.
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I can’t think of many situations where “no one else’s business” forms the foundation of good decision making. Human society would not be possible if this were the standard of behavior, or standard of morality. You hear this assertion all the time, and it is simplistic and not very genuine, as the proponents of it don’t believe it themselves.
 
TheLittleLady said:
ccc 2357 “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained”

Bold mine.
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As I said, they suppose it to be some kind of unchosen mental disorder. I suspect it is caused by some chosen sin either in the past or assiduous.
AngelusDomini said:
now to recognise that they are not culpable due to mental illness.
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That tendency is flawed and in most cases heretical.
AngelusDomini said:
Can’t have the faithful looking upon the work of a mentally disordered or sinful man
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This does not follow from anything I have said. If you feel as though only things made by perfect people should be admired then that is your prerogative. I have no such prejudice.
 
What is health? Is it not the proper ordering of the creature as regards its functions?

So when a person is homosexual, where is that disorder? Is it in their foot? Is it in their finger? Of course not, it is in the mind.

When someone has a disordered body, we call them unhealthy. A person with a bad heart is unhealthy because they have a disorder in their heart. A person with lung cancer is unhealthy because they have a disorder in their lungs.

So a person with a disorder in their mind is mentally unhealthy. They have a mental health disorder.

Either homosexuality is a mental disorder or it is a sinful choice. One or the other. Pick one, or both. There is no third option.
 
I just don’t understand why this has to be a debate. Can’t you just live and let live
 
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theCardinalbird said:
For me, I never got to truly bond with other men. Never really felt like one of the guys. Contrast that with my straight friends and you see that they had great relationships with their fathers and other guy friends.
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I have had the same experience but I’m heterosexual. I found that as I got older I just behaved naturally with people and some like me and some don’t. I think perhaps I thought too much about what was expected of me from males and females for that matter when I was young. As you become established mentally and more self reliant you may find that you can relax more and just be yourself with people and then you’ll start to enjoy genuine friendships and ‘intimacy’ as were calling it more and it’ll feel natural.

If a male needs friendships within the Church then perhaps you could join or start a cofraternity.
 
Trevize said:
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goout:
Do you think human existence is a good thing?
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No, it is a neutral thing.
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Ah, right to the heart of the matter.
Existence is a priori the highest good, without which you wouldn’t even be here to express your indifference to it.
“To be” comes before anything else (a priori). Does that make sense? Think about the fact that are currently breathing, thinking, and probably typing, and all of this flows from your existence as a human being. Should we take you with full seriousness, or should we shrug with neutral indifference?

Human life, or human existence, should be affirmed with more than a nod of neutral indifference. Human existence ought to be treasured, marveled at, protected, nourished. It ought to be well ordered.
And the process by which it happens ought to be recognized if we are to have sanity in the world. Because the opposite of order is chaos, injustice, deception, and all those entail. (our society is rampant with deception in this age, when college students refuse to recognize the difference between me and the 8’ tall Chinese basketball player that I wish to be)

Honestly, if we really do not agree that human existence and the way it happens deserve more than a shrug of neutral indifference, not much more can be said.
I hope you change your mind.
 
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Homosexuality is disordered because it goes against the natural law of union between a male and a female. It goes against the way marriage is meant to truly be.

However, it is not meant to be a disease or health issue but rather something that opposes God’s plan and therefore should not be done.
 
We are mental, physical and spiritual beings. So there’s your three options by which to examine human behaviour.

I know that we are often affected by our physiology in sometimes very subtle ways which can lead us to feel and think along certain lines which we will then justify with our intellect. Some people may actually have been affected by substances in the food chain, very subtle and I have no proof but I think studies have been made. I’m not saying that this has influenced people to be homosexual …but I’m not saying that it has not had that effect either. People may say that being homosexual is a response to deep physiological drives beyond their control, but that physiology is created and sustained through what we consume and we cannot be sure that what we have consumed has not had an effect on our minds.

What I am inferring I’ve no doubt is not a popular idea however we tend to justify ourselves in our opinions and we should try to remain open to all possibilities.
 
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