gay marraige

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I have been visiting with a Catholic friend of mine who questions where in the bible it does not allow for gay marraige and verses about how God views those that are homosexual. I could give her all the ones I know but since she is Catholic I would like to ask for you to help me do this from the teachings of the Church.
Thank you!
mlz
P.S. You may find this strange but in several of our other discussions I’m defending the Catholic churches teachings while she doesn’t agree with these teachings (and I’m not the Catholic ,although considering…)
 
Read Romans 1:24 to your friend, that should be all she needs to know about gay anything…,

There tends to be two types of Catholics, there are the ones that have the entire system broken down into little boxes, a math formula of sorts, and there is a need for those types, yet there are other types “such as myself”, who may not fit perfectly within the former standards, it’s the heart and spirit of the faith that counts for more, trying to integrate the two together only leads to confusion and dogma when pressed too hard, kind of like forcing the journey forward when it needs to be digested at the pace we can handle, just as there are different manners to teach the same subject, one shoe does not fit all.

I’m going to give you a warning on this while you decide to convert, you will run into legalists that insist upon this or that, that put down what you hold dear, they do so mainly out of ignorance to your faith, nothing more, so you may have to take things with a grain of salt, knowing you aren’t ready for it, it’s the journey, not the destination.
 
Don’t forget that chapter and verse divisions are NOT in the original.

Therefore 1:24 should be read in context with 2:1, which says, “Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.”

Furthermore, can someone who NEVER felt emotional or erotic or romantic feelings for the opposite sex be accused of having “left” or “abandoned” something s/he never had to start with?
 
hi mlz,

Before you have another discussion with your friend, and for your own formation understanding, please set aside an hour or so and read through this from the Library portion of this website. It combines references to Scripture, CCC, Encyclicals, etc. and lays it all out in a tidy way. I think it will be helpful to you.
 
prodigalson12 said:
Read Romans 1:24 to your friend, that should be all she needs to know about gay anything…,

There tends to be two types of Catholics, there are the ones that have the entire system broken down into little boxes, a math formula of sorts, and there is a need for those types, yet there are other types “such as myself”, who may not fit perfectly within the former standards, it’s the heart and spirit of the faith that counts for more, trying to integrate the two together only leads to confusion and dogma when pressed too hard, kind of like forcing the journey forward when it needs to be digested at the pace we can handle, just as there are different manners to teach the same subject, one shoe does not fit all.

I’m going to give you a warning on this while you decide to convert, you will run into legalists that insist upon this or that, that put down what you hold dear, they do so mainly out of ignorance to your faith, nothing more, so you may have to take things with a grain of salt, knowing you aren’t ready for it, it’s the journey, not the destination.
Click to expand...

Romans 1.24 is difficult to use as a NT rejection of homosexual practice, because the context of the “Therefore” is this:​

==========

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2&version=NIV
==========

Is Paul saying that idolatry leads to homosexuality ? It does rather look like it. It’s quite possible to condemn something because it deserves condemnation, while using dodgy reasoning for so doing. It seems he is saying that homosexuality is what people get up to if they fail to come to a correct perceprtion of God - the argument seems to be based on a sort of “fittingness”.

But*** if*** that is what he is saying, how to account for all the non-homosexual, clean-living non-believers in Paul’s God ? How can the idea that homosexuality is a or the result of “not know[ing] God” be sustained 😦 ?
 
mlz said:
I have been visiting with a Catholic friend of mine who questions where in the bible it does not allow for gay marraige and verses about how God views those that are homosexual. I could give her all the ones I know but since she is Catholic I would like to ask for you to help me do this from the teachings of the Church.
Thank you!
mlz
P.S. You may find this strange but in several of our other discussions I’m defending the Catholic churches teachings while she doesn’t agree with these teachings (and I’m not the Catholic ,although considering…)
Click to expand...
If you go to my blog, there is an article explaining the Church teaching about gay marriage.

Viva Cristo Rey

Catholic Deacon
 
Cluny said:
Don’t forget that chapter and verse divisions are NOT in the original.

Therefore 1:24 should be read in context with 2:1, which says, “Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.”

Furthermore, can someone who NEVER felt emotional or erotic or romantic feelings for the opposite sex be accused of having “left” or “abandoned” something s/he never had to start with?
Click to expand...
Feeling things and entertaining them are two completely different things. Every human being has felt lust or temptation - the sin comes in entertaining or acting on them.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Romans 1.24 is difficult to use as a NT rejection of homosexual practice, because the context of the “Therefore” is this:​

==========

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2&version=NIV
==========

Is Paul saying that idolatry leads to homosexuality ? It does rather look like it. It’s quite possible to condemn something because it deserves condemnation, while using dodgy reasoning for so doing. It seems he is saying that homosexuality is what people get up to if they fail to come to a correct perceprtion of God - the argument seems to be based on a sort of “fittingness”.

But*** if*** that is what he is saying, how to account for all the non-homosexual, clean-living non-believers in Paul’s God ? How can the idea that homosexuality is a or the result of “not know[ing] God” be sustained 😦 ?
Click to expand...
It seems to me that Paul is talking about a society turning against God. Within that society, there will be people who do believe and non-believers who aren’t “as sinful” as some.

Open, accepted homosexuality is a symptom of a change in culture - a societal turning away from God. These passages sound very similar to what we are dealing with in the world today.
 
mlz said:
I have been visiting with a Catholic friend of mine who questions where in the bible it does not allow for gay marraige and verses about how God views those that are homosexual. I could give her all the ones I know but since she is Catholic I would like to ask for you to help me do this from the teachings of the Church.
Thank you!
mlz
P.S. You may find this strange but in several of our other discussions I’m defending the Catholic churches teachings while she doesn’t agree with these teachings (and I’m not the Catholic ,although considering…)
Click to expand...
Actually, to the best of my knowledge, the Bible condemns homosexual activity but not homosexuality.
 
Caution: The following refers to sin, NOT homosexuals or those who struggle with their sexual identity. So put the blowtorch down.

Rats will not eat pure rat poison. It takes over 96% inert, attractive ingredients to conceal the harmful portion that would otherwise act as a rat repellent. Rats are in consensus, by a large margin, that rat poison is so good that it can’t be anything else but perfectly fine, and they will climb walls and dig through them to get to it. Who are you to judge any rat? Who are you to tell a rat this is not good for them? They don’t see anything wrong with it, why can’t you just mind your own business and let them be the rats God made them to be?

What should one do if one really loves rats?
 
What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is nobody’s business but theirs.

Seem ironic that religion preaches about love, yet seems fit to try to deny that that love from others that don’t share there narrow views.
 
Charles_Darwin said:
What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is nobody’s business but theirs. .
Click to expand...
Actually it is everyone’s business! Society is formed the actions of its members. In-morals acts, acts that go against the dignity of the human person, acts that contradict the natural order hurt all of society even if they are committed in the privacy of your home, or by yourselves. Let me give you an example: Studies have shown that when men expose themselves to pornographic material, the area of the brain that is most active if the area that is usually active when handling tools. What does that mean? That although performed in private, exposing yourself to pornography makes your brain think of woman in an utilitarian way. So women stop been regarded as companions but as tools for the private use and pleasure of men. Open any magazine or watch some beer commercials and you will know what I’m talking about.

To think that your actions do not affect society is just one of the fallacies of modernism. No man is an island, we are created to be in community.

Viva Cristo Rey!
 
Charles_Darwin said:
What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is nobody’s business but theirs.

Seem ironic that religion preaches about love, yet seems fit to try to deny that that love from others that don’t share there narrow views.
Click to expand...
No one is trying to get into anyone else’s bedroom. In the Christian world view sexual intercourse, any sexual intercourse, outside of a marriage ordained by God is sinful. This does not matter about the person’s sexual orientation.

The caveat is that God does not ordain homosexual marriages. So, two homosexual people cannot be web in God’s eyes and thus homosexual intercourse is always a sin.
 
Charles_Darwin said:
What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is nobody’s business but theirs.

Seem ironic that religion preaches about love, yet seems fit to try to deny that that love from others that don’t share there narrow views.
Click to expand...
Father-Son, Son-Mother, Father-daughter. That OK under your POV? (assuming adult childern)
 
Gn 1:27 - complementarity of sexes reflects God’s inner unity
Gn 2:21-24 - transmission of life through total self-donation - one flesh
Gn 19 - original sin deteriorates to Sodom’s sin, destroyed
Lv18:22 - called abomination, cut off from people (v.29)
Lv 20;13 - both shall be put to death for abominable deed
Rom 1;27 - called unnatural, shameful, and a perversity
1Cor 6:9 - active homosexuals won’t inherit kingdom of God
1Tim 1:9-10 - those who engage in such acts called sinners
 
Newbie2 said:
Father-Son, Son-Mother, Father-daughter. That OK under your POV? (assuming adult childern)
Click to expand...
That’s a great point. People for gay marriage always get mad about this argument and claim it’s not relevant. I don’t get it. It’s two consenting adults, doing what they want to do in their bedroom. Why is one OK, and one isn’t?
 
Irish_Becca said:
That’s a great point. People for gay marriage always get mad about this argument and claim it’s not relevant. I don’t get it. It’s two consenting adults, doing what they want to do in their bedroom. Why is one OK, and one isn’t?
Click to expand...
They claim it’s not relevant because when someone chooses to sin out of pride and greed, they know full well facing the logical truth of their actions means they must condemn their own actions. They will pull out all stops to keep themselves behind the smoke screen and avoid facing their own actions. We see this same behavior with substance addicts. “I can stop anytime I want,” but they never, ever do. They drink/rely on substances because of everyone else around them, never them. It’s the same thing… I know what’s best for me so get out of my way.
 
Irish_Becca said:
That’s a great point. People for gay marriage always get mad about this argument and claim it’s not relevant. I don’t get it. It’s two consenting adults, doing what they want to do in their bedroom. Why is one OK, and one isn’t?
Click to expand...
And why limit it just to* two *consenting adults?
 
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