Gay Marriage (A Different Perspective)

[EnchantedEve]

With all due respect, you make it seem complicated when really it is simple. State marriage has always been between a man and a woman. It’s nothing new. How are Christians pushing our beliefs on the state when it has “always” been between one man and one woman? That’s the point. They’re taking a foundational institution of our country and trying to change what has always been the same for hundreds of years. This is not new, we are not trying to change anything, they are. It’s been this way for awhile now. Gee, wonder why? No one is coming in and saying you now have to have it between one man and one woman, it’s always been that way! It is part of our American culture (and many many others). It’s as normal as apple pie and baseball!

I will not stand by and let immorality rule the day in my country. They’re already trying to legalize incest in Europe. What other deviant group will come forward now demanding its rights? I’ll stick with what the Catholic church teaches.

“Choose life then and live!” Deuteronomy 30

I agree, even though I advocate taking the State out the picture. The State has in its interest the common good, and by extensions the perpetuation of society. Homosexual marriage precludes this goal and bears no relation to the common good of all. Again, the State does not have the power to ratify what has never been, and never can be. It falls outside their perogative to do so.

 

[Alisa]

Ladybri, have you noticed that the United States of America isn’t just an “apple pie and baseball” kind of place any more? If marriage between one man and one woman is the only way to go for you, as it is for me, having been married for 44 years – well and good! We should live it! Gay individuals are not telling us we all have to go out and marry somebody of the opposite sex.

There is more to “morality” in this country than our Christian ideals. We should live them!!! But why should one-fifth of the U.S. citizens be denied something we heterosexuals take for granted? Or maybe you are rejecting the word “marriage” as applied to them?? Call it what you will – as long as they are not denied loving, caring, legal relationships just because they were born to prefer somebody of their same sex.

Once again – this needn’t affect how you live your life at all! Live by your Christian principles, as I am.

Alisa

 

[brigid12]

What is wrong with homosexual marriage is that we know that God really dislikes homosexual “unions” and it would be unloving for us to allow those poor souls to offend God in such a huge way. Also, it would send the wrong “message” and be even more unloving to our children, for whom we are responsible more directly. It would say to them that we think that God either doesn’t care or is so old-fashioned that He is not to be paid much attention (or that He doesn’t really exist ) and for them to go ahead with that lifestyle if they want.

 

[ladybri77]

I agree, even though I advocate taking the State out the picture. The State has in its interest the common good, and by extensions the perpetuation of society. Homosexual marriage precludes this goal and bears no relation to the common good of all. Again, the State does not have the power to ratify what has never been, and never can be. It falls outside their perogative to do so.

And homosexual marriage doesn’t reflect the U.S. in a good light, it doesn’t reflect the morals and values our country was founded on and the values our laws were created from. Now it seems that if marriage doesn’t further the perpetuation of society, that gay people can simply pay people to reproduce if they want children or get sperm from a sperm bank and put it in a test tube, that it diminishes the value of anyone’s marital relationship also. So not only is the institution of marriage cheapened, but relationships and child-rearing also become cheapened and devalued.

 

[Alisa]

Ladybri, with all respect: You say gay marriage would not “reflect in good light” our country, and then you go on to say the institution of marriage would be “cheapened”.

Not to me, my friend! I have been married for a very long time, and if gay marriages were performed, it would not change my views nor spirituality nor respect for traditional marriage one iota. I believe in living my own life and don’t need any sort of “backup of numbers” who believe the same as I in order to feel comfortable with my own views.

I don’t feel that everybody has to live and think like me in order to feel safe and “right”, in other words.

Probably somebody will now say, “But God says…”. Yes He does. But not all of us Americans have had God revealed to us in the same way we Christians have.

Societies have to evolve in humane ways in order to survive.

Alisa

 

[ladybri77]

Ladybri, have you noticed that the United States of America isn’t just an “apple pie and baseball” kind of place any more? If marriage between one man and one woman is the only way to go for you, as it is for me, having been married for 44 years – well and good! We should live it! Gay individuals are not telling us we all have to go out and marry somebody of the opposite sex.

There is more to “morality” in this country than our Christian ideals. We should live them!!! But why should one-fifth of the U.S. citizens be denied something we heterosexuals take for granted? Or maybe you are rejecting the word “marriage” as applied to them?? Call it what you will – as long as they are not denied loving, caring, legal relationships just because they were born to prefer somebody of their same sex.

Once again – this needn’t affect how you live your life at all! Live by your Christian principles, as I am.

Alisa

I would hope they would not be denied certain unalienable rights like visiting each other in the hospital, etc. What was wrong with stopping with civil unions only? Guess because they didn’t afford the same legal rights as marriage. Oh well, society shouldn’t accept marriage being between two of the same sex as the above poster put it, as it was made one man and one woman to perpetuate society. No nation if they are wise should accept this, but some states already have. Who knows what will happen in the future. Just concerned how it will affect our children.

It will affect me because it will affect my children. They are already forcing kids to read books about homosexuality in the schools, teaching that it’s okay. I would teach my kids much differently. It will also affect further laws being made with rights of who knows who. I wouldn’t want my child growing up thinking this behavior was accepted as “normal” just because any and all deviant unions were now made legal. You see it has everything to do with the way it affects our children. Also, a society where immorality reigns, destroys itself.

In many posts I have posted in the past, I speak of how no one is “born that way” since it has never been scientifically proven, but there has been plenty of research as to what role environment plays, psychologically and emotionally on the development of the individual. You can read about this at Narth.com. It is very educational.

They didn’t ask to feel that way, but they certainly can control their behavior. The Catholic church teaches abstinence for anyone who is single. The church also offers a support group for people who struggle with SSA (same sex attraction) called Courage who help one another remain celibate through prayer and support. So, no one has to act out the behavior (which is sinful) even if they “feel” that way. However, the feelings are not sinful.

 

[edwest2]

I agree totally with you, jjdrury. Marriage as a civil institution should be legal for gay couples. If one doesn’t believe in gay marriage as a civil union – I have a great idea: have a heterosexual marriage yourself!

We, as Catholics, should not expect this country to legislate our views toward marriage. No religion should expect this. What if Islamic people insisted all American women be veiled? What if Orthodox Jews insisted all groceries in supermarkets be Kosher?

We Catholics may also have the notion that the purpose of a sexual experience is producing another child. Other Americans disagree.

We need to vote according to our consciences, we can demonstrate or speak out if we so choose – but to me, bottom line: This is a civil matter. If we have faith-centered beliefs about marriage, that is our private business and is between us, our church, and God.

Alisa

Respectfully, allow me to point out the same was said by proponents of abortion before it became legal: between us, our church and God.

As a society, we need to love our neighbor and the stranger. Can we spare some money for the man standing on the street corner with the Homeless. Please help. sign?

If love is not evident in the family, it is not evident in the neighborhood and is not evident in the surrounding community. If a love for the truth is not evident in each of us then how shall we live? Even before Jesus Christ appeared, men realized, there are certain basic, fundamental truths to live by. It was written on their hearts.

Now, starting in 1968, all I heard were certain people yelling Freedom, which only led to perversion, lust, self-degradation and I’m OK and You’re OK living with no foundation in natural truth just whatever happens to amuse you or me at a particular time.

As Catholics, we need to read what the Church is telling us about this subject. We need to realize there are certain lines that should never be crossed. The Free Love of 1968 was not about true love and true self-giving and devotion between two persons in marriage but about sex. That is why it was called the Sexual revolution. Supposedly, according to the media, it changed American’s perceptions of human sexuality. How so? Just do it with anyone? That was better? That was more functional? That led to more stable relationships?

A few days ago, in a local newspaper, an advice columnist actually suggested adultery to a man trapped in a sexless marriage. That sort of thing was radical thinking in 1968 – look where it is now.

And read this:

firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=330

Plans are already being made to go Beyond Gay Marriage. Realize that this will not end well or end with civil unions. Already, the State is forcing little kids to read a gay story book in school in Massachussetts. This isn’t about just adults, it’s about reengineering American society. The parents cannot opt out.

Peace,
Ed

 

[MarkInOregon]

You guys and girls just don’t get it. Actually it would appear to be you who doesn’t get it.

This should not be an argument over the morality of homosexual marriage. Most Christians agree that it is against the Law of God. If our laws are not based on morality what pray tell are they based on? What determines right from wrong?

This should be focused on whether or not you want to live in a society where the religious majority can dictate law. Our laws are based on moral norms bounded by the constitution. There are boundries our laws cannot cross.
Why is it that people get all worked up and YELL you can’t impose your morality on me–yet at the same time they see no contradiction in imposing their morality, or lack there of, on me? Its to sides of the same coin. For example – No Fault Divorce-- has done great harm to our society–to the society I live in. Just look around at child poverty and broken faimilies. Its done far more harm than good. Don’t we have the right to argue for our position? Divorce isnt a civil right. We all deserve to be treated “equall” not get whatever we want.

When/if the country has more Muslims than Christians you will all be sorry you have torn down the constitution which guarantees our civil liberties as they impose Sharia law on us. Could happen with any religious group. Please elaborate on how “gay marriage” is a civil liberty. Please explain what “right” that someone else has is being denied to them. What can I do that they cannot? How are they being descriminated against?

This is a simple argument and everyone here is muddling the issue to suit their own agenda. Frankly, it sickens me. Isnt this what you are doing?

The TRUTH is that our forefathers created the constitution to protect us from ourselves.

It’s called separation of church and state. Believe me when I say, you do not want to go down a road that brings the two together… just look at Iran. The constitution doesnt really say anything about “separation of church and state” It prohibits the government from establishing a national/state religion that we all must adhere to. Thats a little different–though there are many who wish to interpret the establishment claus as you are.

Ideally yes, we would love to be a nation ruled by Christian principles but the reality is that we do not live in that world. We live in a secular world, though as Christians we are not “part of” that world. We still must be practical and protect ourselves from being dominated by non-Christian doctrine… and unfortunately for us, part of that means we have to allow others to live by their own religion (or no religion)… if we do not protect their rights, it may be us on the other side of the coin one day. Talk about mudding the waters–Christian principles were the underpinning for most of our laws–and these are slowing being eroded. And again please enumerate the right(s) that I have that are being denied. What can I do that they cannot? It what way are we being treated differently?

That is why our forefathers created the constitution. Let’s not mess with it!

 

[MarkInOregon]

New York has been the fifth state to legalize gay marriage yay. As a lesbian it makes me happy. No one wants to hear this I am sure, but one day I hope that all 50 states can legalize gay marriage. Lesbians have a lower risk of catching HIV which is something heterosexual people should think about because not all gays are disease carriers everyone is. I want to be treated as a citizen of the U.S. not as a second class citizen because of my sexual orientation. Also I think children should learn about Harvey Milk in their history classes. Kids today probably don’t know who he was but they probably know of Martin Luther King more people recognize his name. I am not trying to be cross here, but Harvey Milk and Doctor King are both similar as in trying to get equality. Homosexuals don’t have equality yet. I hope one day an openly gay man or woman becomes president one day. We have elected Obama (who I voted for) the first African Amercian president. And I say hey now that we have done that maybe one day we can elect an openly gay person as president.

Amy

Would you please define “equal rights” for me. You state that you don’t have equality yet. I am unclear what I can do that you can’t. I am serious–I would like someone to enumerate all that “rights” they are being denied–that their heterosexual neighbor has. So we can discuss them and address them. I don’t think homosexuals should be descriminated against–but I don’t see how not being able to marry someone of the same sex qualifies as “descrimination”. Do you have a different definition of descrimination in your dictionary?

Peace

 

[AmyBrownEyes]

Maybe we didn’t choose the feelings, Amy, but we can certainly choose our behavior.

Choose my behavior doesn’t have anything to do with me being gay. You don’t choose being gay or straight and everyone has different behaviors. Are you saying that being gay is a choice we make by our behavior?

 

[j2c99]

Everyone that is pro-gay is so easy to discredit and forget history. Remember that empire called Rome?? You know… the one that eventually adopted Christianity, because of all the mess ups they did…

Well one of the major things that led to Rome’s demise, other than the breakdown of the borders and motley crew of citizens, was their allowing of rampant homosexuality, pederasty, and lewd behavior. Hedonism to the extreme, and it doesn’t get much more basic than gay or lesbian sexual contact. No possibility for natural procreation, just pure sexual subjective “feel good.”

Please don’t let America get sucked down into that same mindset that destroyed Rome. Its crystal clear to see the resemblances and the exact rubric of destruction that Rome did, occurring in the hearts and minds of Americans today.

 

[ladybri77]

Choose my behavior doesn’t have anything to do with me being gay. You don’t choose being gay or straight and everyone has different behaviors. Are you saying that being gay is a choice we make by our behavior?

If we “feel” attracted to the same sex, we don’t have to act on it. We can choose to remain celibate like God and the church ask us to do if we are single or attracted to the same sex. That’s what I’m saying.

 

[AmyBrownEyes]

To me discrimination is:
sexual orientation
sexual identity
religion
nationality
race
discrimination is basically hate that is what it is.

Being denied same-sex marriage is discrimination because it is a right and priviledge heterosexuals have they can marry and gays can’t. In the constitution it says that all men are created equal in America we don’t have equality. African Americans didn’t have it however they now have the same rights as a white person. A homosexual is not equal in the heterosexual community, which is a sad thing because all men are suppose to be equal and have the same rights.
Being gay at one point was considered a fenoly and you could go to jail for it existing “Sodomy Laws” which prohibit oral and anal sexual intercourse, even between consenting adults, were primarily used to target homosexuals. Gays can’t kiss their partner or hold each other’s hands out in public because they will be ridiculed a heterosexual couple can though. A mother can breast feed out in public and same sex couples should be able to make out with their partner without a police officer telling them to knock it off that its inappropriate out in public.

These have all been documented in all parts of the world:

gay people denied of equal treatment in court.

federal government denies openly gays employment to federal institutions like the CIA, FBI, the army – nation’s biggest employer in the United States – or the National Security Agency. The government even regularly removes openly gay officials from public positions, and so do a lot of other employers in the private sector (Mohr 6).

Among the most common stereotypes are those which carry fear and ignorance. Gays are said to be “child molesters” and “sex-crazed maniacs”. They are considered extremely “immoral” because they do not follow social customs, “unnatural” because homosexuality violates the basic functions of genitals and contradicts the nature.

On the other hand, gays defend themselves by arguing that homosexuality is a characteristic with which they are attached in the early childhood or even with birth. Gays do not have a choice over their homosexuality as heterosexuals do not have a choice over their heterosexuality. Hence, gayness is a condition over which they do not have, just as no one has control over his or her ethnic race, origin, outer appearance, or the class they he or she is born in. In addition, empirical research on adult sexual orientation and molestation of children has shown that gay men are not more likely to molest children than heterosexual men.

Through special criminal provisions or practices on the basis of sexual orientation, in many countries lesbians, gays and bisexuals are denied equality in rights and before the law. Often laws maintain a higher age of consent for same sex relations in comparison with opposite sex relations.

The right to non-discrimination and to be free from violence and harassment is usually denied by omitting sexual orientation in anti-discrimination laws, constitutional provisions or their enforcement.

The right to life is violated in states where the death penalty is applicable for sodomy.

The right to be free from torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment is infringed upon by police practices, in investigations or in the case of lesbians, gays and bisexuals in detention.

Arbitrary arrest occurs in a number of countries with individuals suspected of having a homo/bisexual identity.

The freedom of movement is denied to bi-national couples by not recognizing their same sex relation.

The rights to free expression and free association may either be denied explicitly by law, or lesbians, gays and bisexuals may not enjoy them because of the homophobic climate in which they live.

The practice of religion is usually restricted in the case of lesbians, gays and bisexuals, especially in the case of churches advocating against them.

The right to work is the most affected among the economic rights, many lesbians, gays and bisexuals being fired because of their sexual orientation or discriminated in employment policies and practices.

The rights to social security, assistance and benefits, and from here - the standard of living - are affected, for example when they have to disclose the identity of their spouse.

The right to physical and mental health is at conflict with discriminatory policies and practices, some physicians’ homophobia, the lack of adequate training for health care personnel regarding sexual orientation issues or the general assumption that patients are heterosexuals.

The right to form a family is denied by governments by not-recognizing same sex families and by denying the rights otherwise granted by the state to heterosexual families who have not sought legal recognition, but still enjoy several rights. Children can also be denied protection against separation from parents based of a parent’s sexual orientation. Lesbians, gay and bisexual couples and individuals are not allowed to adopt a child, even in the case of the child of their same sex partner.

It is, therefore, important for the people to be involved in this issue and to clearly take side, rather than just avoiding the problem. If one tries to avoid the problem of integration of homosexuals just out of convenience, one is as irresponsible as those who did not take side when the nation was deeply divided when it came to the question about slavery, women’s right to vote, and African Americans’ equal protection rights. The history of tolerance is going to reach another landmark, and no one should miss the opportunity to raise his or her voice.

Well do you see the rights that I am denied by being gay?

 

[RosaryFan]

Ladybri, with all respect: You say gay marriage would not “reflect in good light” our country, and then you go on to say the institution of marriage would be “cheapened”.

Not to me, my friend! I have been married for a very long time, and if gay marriages were performed, it would not change my views nor spirituality nor respect for traditional marriage one iota. I believe in living my own life and don’t need any sort of “backup of numbers” who believe the same as I in order to feel comfortable with my own views.

I don’t feel that everybody has to live and think like me in order to feel safe and “right”, in other words.

Probably somebody will now say, “But God says…”. Yes He does. But not all of us Americans have had God revealed to us in the same way we Christians have.

Societies have to evolve in humane ways in order to survive.

Alisa

So you’re saying, “live and let live”? Is that what you’re saying? And where would you draw the line? If homosexuals are allowed to marry, what about father and daughter? Mother and son? Mother and daughter? Daughter and family dog?

You are obviously not thinking of the ramifications on society with this kind of mentality.

 

[AmyBrownEyes]

Ladybri, with all respect: You say gay marriage would not “reflect in good light” our country, and then you go on to say the institution of marriage would be “cheapened”.

Not to me, my friend! I have been married for a very long time, and if gay marriages were performed, it would not change my views nor spirituality nor respect for traditional marriage one iota. I believe in living my own life and don’t need any sort of “backup of numbers” who believe the same as I in order to feel comfortable with my own views.

I don’t feel that everybody has to live and think like me in order to feel safe and “right”, in other words.

Probably somebody will now say, “But God says…”. Yes He does. But not all of us Americans have had God revealed to us in the same way we Christians have.

Societies have to evolve in humane ways in order to survive.

Alisa

Hi Alisa,

As a lesbian and a Catholic I love it when wonderful people such as yourself is religious and supportive of equal rights for gays. I have made a few posts on here approving of gay marriage and equal rights but people don’t seem to understand what I am trying to tell them or they just don’t care what a gay Catholic has to say on the whole subject.

Peace,

Amy

 

[j2c99]

Supporting gay marriage, female priests, or premarital sex is irreconcilable with the Catholic Church.

There is no wavering of this at all. Whats so hard to understand?

 

[AmyBrownEyes]

Supporting gay marriage, female priests, or premarital sex is irreconcilable with the Catholic Church.

There is no wavering of this at all. Whats so hard to understand?

Female priests what wrong with that? What is so hard for other Catholics to understand that gays need equals rights a straight person has? America has lost its meaning on what it stood for years ago. Equality is something we don’t have in America anymore America is better than this. The fathers of the constitution wanted equality for all no matter how different people are from each other.

 

[edwest2]

Gay marriage is not a civil rights issue:

media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/news/2004/03/11/Opinion/Guest.Opinion.Gay.Marriage.Is.Not.A.Civil.Rights.Issue-632124.shtml

The fact is, being homosexual was listed as a disorder until 1973 when radical gay activists simply had it removed as such.

narth.com/docs/soctribute.html

I once went to Church with a formerly bisexual young lady. I’m certain no one could tell.

A lawyer could draw up documents that would allow you to visit someone in a hospital and make medical decisions for them. I worked in health care for nearly 10 years.

Peace,
Ed

 

[ladybri77]

Female priests what wrong with that? What is so hard for other Catholics to understand that gays need equals rights a straight person has? America has lost its meaning on what it stood for years ago. Equality is something we don’t have in America anymore America is better than this. The fathers of the constitution wanted equality for all no matter how different people are from each other.

Amy, not to be harsh here but pedophiles also have an attraction that they didn’t choose, but can certainly choose not to act on. Many who feel homosexual choose to be celibate since that is what God and the church ask us to do. The website is Narth.com. Hope this helps.

This website also might help you understand why you feel the way you do. I’ve posted organizations and ways to help you with your feelings in my past posts. If you would like me to repost them, just let me know.

God Bless

 

[jjdrury81]

The issue is still that there are two definitions of marriage.

1. Civil Marriage: A contract granted by the state. This contract, which can be broken at any time, gives the two consenting individual certain legal rights.

2.) Christian Marriage: A contract given by god. This contract, which can never be broken, is the holy union of a man and a woman, under god, for the purpose of raising a family.

Nobody is saying that gays should have the second marriage. By definition, they can not. However, it is absolutely discrimination not to give them access to the first.