Gay Marriage (A Different Perspective)

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The issue is still that there are two definitions of marriage.
  1. Civil Marriage: A contract granted by the state. This contract, which can be broken at any time, gives the two consenting individual certain legal rights.
2.) Christian Marriage: A contract given by god. This contract, which can never be broken, is the holy union of a man and a woman, under god, for the purpose of raising a family.

Nobody is saying that gays should have the second marriage. By definition, they can not. However, it is absolutely discrimination not to give them access to the first.
And still call it marriage?? It cannot be a true “marriage” since the definition of marriage is one man and one woman. Why take a word which is specifically meant for a heterosexual couple and apply it to a same sex couple? Theoretically you can’t when it is only applied to the above.
 
And still call it marriage?? It cannot be a true “marriage” since the definition of marriage is one man and one woman. Why take a word which is specifically meant for a heterosexual couple and apply it to a same sex couple? Theoretically you can’t when it is only applied to the above.
I agree. If gays want to make some kind of formal commitment to each other, call it something else. It’s not the same thing as marriage, which is what my husband and I have worked at for nearly 23 years, through good times and bad, where we promised to be open to God’s gift of children - and accepted that gift four times, and my husband has maintained his promise not to act on his same-sex attraction tendencies, because we are Catholic, we believe in what Jesus taught and we hope to enter the kingdom of God.

(I also think we need to come up with a word other than “marriage” to describe what so many celebrities and others do these days: Live together and have pre-marital sex, write up a prenuptial agreement, throw an outlandish ‘wedding,’ have children before or after the ‘wedding,’ stay together for a couple years, cheat on each other and get divorced. That’s not marriage.)

We are all sinners. We all have our crosses and human failings, whether it’s same-sex attraction, food addiction, alcoholism, anger or whatever. The problem is, today’s world is obsessed with sex and tells us it’s OK to do whatever we want. If you choose to act on same-sex attraction, you are defying the way God made us. I say it IS possible to remain true to God and not give in to societal pressure and every temptation, and you will be a better person for it.

If we believe in God and Jesus and want to go to heaven, we need to try to do what He has told us is right, and when we fail, ask His forgiveness - and we will be forgiven.
 
If counterfeiting were legalized, how would that affect the money that I have in my billfold? It would still be good money, wouldn’t it? The fact that the guy down the street prints his own would not affect mine, which is prined by the Federal Reserve.

So counterfeit marriage shouldn’t affect me at all.

Unless the bad money drives out the good.

But, that is already happening.
 
If counterfeiting were legalized, how would that affect the money that I have in my billfold? It would still be good money, wouldn’t it? The fact that the guy down the street prints his own would not affect mine, which is prined by the Federal Reserve.

So counterfeit marriage shouldn’t affect me at all.

Unless the bad money drives out the good.

But, that is already happening.
Because it affects our children. Kids are being forced to read books about homosexuality in school, that it’s okay, which would go against the morals and values I would teach my kids. Also, other groups will probably come forward wanting their “rights”. I could name them, but they have already been named a gizilion times on this thread.

We have a moral obligation a Catholic Christians to stand up against immorality and do what we can to stop the spread of it. So, unless you want your children growing up in a society which condones all types of pathological and deviant sexual behavior, then you won’t do anything about it. But as Christians, we should no matter what.

A society bent on immorality destroys itself.
 
Because it affects our children. Kids are being forced to read books about homosexuality in school, that it’s okay, which would go against the morals and values I would teach my kids. Also, other groups will probably come forward wanting their “rights”. I could name them, but they have already been named a gizilion times on this thread.

We have a moral obligation a Catholic Christians to stand up against immorality and do what we can to stop the spread of it. So, unless you want your children growing up in a society which condones all types of pathological and deviant sexual behavior, then you won’t do anything about it. But as Christians, we should no matter what.

A society bent on immorality destroys itself.
I entirely agree. I was employing a bit of irony. Counterfeit money does affect my money because it devalues it, and counterfeit marriage devalues the real thing. At the same time divorce, cohabitation, and fornication are already devaluing marriage.
 
and so the sickness goes on and on…when treason flourishes…so one dare call it treason…if two people want to live together who cares…but if a legal contract is indicated what does that mean…maybe that a homosexual can now ,must now.be allowed to be a scoutmaster…how charming…brings tears to my eyes…or that two guys can now adopt a little boy…wow.also utterly utterly…cool man dude!!! and then of course the Mormons want their say…more than one wife…all those darn nylon stockings a hangin in the bathroom…or maybe a gal can marry her pet poodle or orangutan chimp…or an ole coot marry his plant…love can be defined in soooo many different ways…well you couch potatos…I hope your finally waking up…I and other right wing extremists for years warned you of Orwells 1984 is coming your way but you just smirked and laughed us off. now that the Teevee will soon be watching you.all for you own good of course…etc etc…I know,lets go watch some baseball games with undertalented overpaid steriod goons…see ya in the bleachers…at only $45 a seat…
 
Female priests what wrong with that? What is so hard for other Catholics to understand that gays need equals rights a straight person has? America has lost its meaning on what it stood for years ago.😦 Equality is something we don’t have in America anymore America is better than this. The fathers of the constitution wanted equality for all no matter how different people are from each other.
What’s wrong with female priests? Ask Jesus. How many women did He pick? Funny - I never met one woman that wanted to be a priest.

What, specifically, are those rights that straight people have that gays don’t have? Not including marriage, because marriage is a sacrament for a man and a woman who can pro-create. With your line of thinking, the “animal rights” activists can also fight for the rights of dogs and cats to marry.
 
Because it affects our children. Kids are being forced to read books about homosexuality in school, that it’s okay, which would go against the morals and values I would teach my kids. Also, other groups will probably come forward wanting their “rights”. I could name them, but they have already been named a gizilion times on this thread.

We have a moral obligation a Catholic Christians to stand up against immorality and do what we can to stop the spread of it. So, unless you want your children growing up in a society which condones all types of pathological and deviant sexual behavior, then you won’t do anything about it. But as Christians, we should no matter what.

A society bent on immorality destroys itself.
Absolutely! I have Catholic friends who say, ‘I shouldn’t force my beliefs on society.’ I say, society has tremendous influence on our children and I, for one, would like my children to grow up in a society that reinforces what I believe is right, and therefore I do not vote for laws that will do the opposite.

And we have a moral obligation to help others get to heaven. “Catholic” means “universal.” God is universal, and we are ALL His children. Every one of us can get to heaven. It’s not right to simply say, “Well, I’ll follow His way so I can get to heaven, but I don’t care if other people just do whatever they want.” We need to help our brothers and sisters, and that means living what we believe and supporting it by the way we vote. We must never give up hope that our actions can change the minds of non-believers. Even if we fail, we still have an obligation to try.
 
If counterfeiting were legalized, how would that affect the money that I have in my billfold? It would still be good money, wouldn’t it? The fact that the guy down the street prints his own would not affect mine, which is prined by the Federal Reserve.

So counterfeit marriage shouldn’t affect me at all.

Unless the bad money drives out the good.

But, that is already happening.
Actually, this gives me an opportunity to use economics as an example.

Counterfeiting is legal, and the counterfeiter is the Federal Reserve. They print fiat money, based not on real values, like gold and silver, but on nothing.

Same with homosexual marriage. The government prints marriage licenses, based not on real values like Christianity, but on nothing.

In both cases, the increase of the worthless paper will eventually take its toll on existing values and drive them down, making all of society suffer directly or indirectly.

To use another example, when I was a younger boy they only had male altar servers. Then when I became one they started permitting girls. Now when I attend Mass there are ONLY altar girls. This is in less than 20 years. See what a small change had a profound affect on one institution? Imagine homosexual “marriage!”
 
The walls are closing in on us. We must realize that madness, once unleashed, knows no bounds. Recall that when this movement started over 40 years ago, homosexuals said all they wanted was to be left alone. Therefore, when we contrast that desire then with their demands today, we should rightfully conclude that being left alone was not their only want, and legal recognition of homosexual “marriage” will not be the last of their demands. Their ultimate goal, according to what I’ve heard them say it, is total validation and acceptance. In other words, they want our hearts and souls. Whether we realize it not, the Church is facing a Nietzschean battle of a will-to-power. Besides being an in-your-face insult to Christian teaching, what greater symbol of the achievement of these goals could there be other than churches, especially the Catholic Church, be required to perform marriage ceremonies for homosexual couples? There will be no option left but for the Church to capitulate.

What should the Church do? Wait to see how things will play out in the political arena? I think not.

Once we see by extrapolation and accept that there is a pattern to Satan’s work here, we can take some pre-emptive measures. Should the Church refuse to recognize homosexual marriage and battle it out in court as it has with other issues? This passive/reactive approach has had poor results at best, largely because the courts are generally hostile to the Gospel.

There is no need to agonize over “right order,” “peace and justice,” “God made them male and female,” and other scriptural passages, to decry court rulings as “unjust”, nor to appeal to recalcitrant Catholics to vote their consciences. The Church should consideration a sort of “surrender Italian-style” [being Italian, I can say that] – surrender before they take it – so it can be on the Church’s terms.

What can the civil authorities take if the Church refuses to perform homosexual marriages? Besides its tax-exempt status, the Church’s authority to perform any marriage recognized by civil law. Therefore, what I propose is that the Church immediately renounce that authority. The Church would continue to perform marriage ceremonies, but they would then become just like any other sacrament – call it Sacramental Marriage, if you will; but at least they will be according to Church law and not something dictated by the State. The tax-exempt status problem would go away because the Church can then claim it does not and cannot perform marriage recognized by civil law, and that it administers only sacraments. In the eyes of the Church, though, a couple would be married, but in the eyes of society, they would be merely domestic partners, an arrangement no longer stigmatized by society. Other Christian Churches, along with conservative Jewish synagogues, might soon follow suit. If couples so desire, they can also get a civil ceremony to avail themselves of benefits [such as joint tax returns, insurance, etc.] of a marriage recognized by civil law, or the Church can require a civil ceremony first.

What are the liberal social engineers going to do then? Work to abolish domestic partner relationships, after vigorously campaigning for their recognition? Also, we need not fear that this would run afoul of Christ’s “render unto Caesar” because “Caesar” has made it abundantly clear that he no longer has an interest in marriage and family, and we will have accomplished our primary goal of protecting the family. Couples who do elect for sacramental marriage would also be special witnesses to the importance of Christ in their lives by “exercising their faith.” Meanwhile, we can also continue to work to reverse the trends of the courts.
 
We’re talking about legalizing sin. Catholic social teaching is meant to be used in the outside world and it’s not limited to our Catholic friends.

Church teaching has not changed in the last 40 years but the advertising to do wrong has increased.

Words you couldn’t say on TV, now they say them.

Divorce was rare, now it’s not.

Sexual sin is the biggest problem facing this country, including choosing abortion as a result of consensual sex.

I remember when sex education came to my Catholic high school in 1973. The false idea that teenagers can’t control themselves was at the core of it. That parents did not know how to talk to their kids. What? The parents were never teenagers themselves?

Legalizing immorality will not solve any problems. There are practical legal solutions, but getting State approval for gay or straight cohabitation is not one of them.

Peace,
Ed
 
Absolutely! I have Catholic friends who say, ‘I shouldn’t force my beliefs on society.’ I say, society has tremendous influence on our children and I, for one, would like my children to grow up in a society that reinforces what I believe is right, and therefore I do not vote for laws that will do the opposite.

And we have a moral obligation to help others get to heaven. “Catholic” means “universal.” God is universal, and we are ALL His children. Every one of us can get to heaven. It’s not right to simply say, “Well, I’ll follow His way so I can get to heaven, but I don’t care if other people just do whatever they want.” We need to help our brothers and sisters, and that means living what we believe and supporting it by the way we vote. We must never give up hope that our actions can change the minds of non-believers. Even if we fail, we still have an obligation to try.
Exactly!

And aren’t all of us part of society? Society is what we decide it to be. Not that we’re winning the battle for marriage, but we can pray that maybe it won’t spread, and we can pray for the conversion of hearts, that God will show them the Truth of their sin. It’s a shame that people don’t see it for what it is. Some Catholic people say, so what? If they aren’t hurting me, that’s fine. But no we have a moral responsibility to be concerned about everyone like you were saying. Also, it will affect us eventually. Maybe we should just close our eyes and pretend it’s not there. (Just kidding) Then we wouldn’t be fulfilling our Christian calling. But that’s what many would have us do.

God loves you and He loves me.
 
The walls are closing in on us. We must realize that madness, once unleashed, knows no bounds. Recall that when this movement started over 40 years ago, homosexuals said all they wanted was to be left alone. Therefore, when we contrast that desire then with their demands today, we should rightfully conclude that being left alone was not their only want, and legal recognition of homosexual “marriage” will not be the last of their demands. Their ultimate goal, according to what I’ve heard them say it, is total validation and acceptance. In other words, they want our hearts and souls. Whether we realize it not, the Church is facing a Nietzschean battle of a will-to-power. Besides being an in-your-face insult to Christian teaching, what greater symbol of the achievement of these goals could there be other than churches, especially the Catholic Church, be required to perform marriage ceremonies for homosexual couples? There will be no option left but for the Church to capitulate.

What should the Church do? Wait to see how things will play out in the political arena? I think not.

Once we see by extrapolation and accept that there is a pattern to Satan’s work here, we can take some pre-emptive measures. Should the Church refuse to recognize homosexual marriage and battle it out in court as it has with other issues? This passive/reactive approach has had poor results at best, largely because the courts are generally hostile to the Gospel.

There is no need to agonize over “right order,” “peace and justice,” “God made them male and female,” and other scriptural passages, to decry court rulings as “unjust”, nor to appeal to recalcitrant Catholics to vote their consciences. The Church should consideration a sort of “surrender Italian-style” [being Italian, I can say that] – surrender before they take it – so it can be on the Church’s terms.

What can the civil authorities take if the Church refuses to perform homosexual marriages? Besides its tax-exempt status, the Church’s authority to perform any marriage recognized by civil law. Therefore, what I propose is that the Church immediately renounce that authority. The Church would continue to perform marriage ceremonies, but they would then become just like any other sacrament – call it Sacramental Marriage, if you will; but at least they will be according to Church law and not something dictated by the State. The tax-exempt status problem would go away because the Church can then claim it does not and cannot perform marriage recognized by civil law, and that it administers only sacraments. In the eyes of the Church, though, a couple would be married, but in the eyes of society, they would be merely domestic partners, an arrangement no longer stigmatized by society. Other Christian Churches, along with conservative Jewish synagogues, might soon follow suit. If couples so desire, they can also get a civil ceremony to avail themselves of benefits [such as joint tax returns, insurance, etc.] of a marriage recognized by civil law, or the Church can require a civil ceremony first.

What are the liberal social engineers going to do then? Work to abolish domestic partner relationships, after vigorously campaigning for their recognition? Also, we need not fear that this would run afoul of Christ’s “render unto Caesar” because “Caesar” has made it abundantly clear that he no longer has an interest in marriage and family, and we will have accomplished our primary goal of protecting the family. Couples who do elect for sacramental marriage would also be special witnesses to the importance of Christ in their lives by “exercising their faith.” Meanwhile, we can also continue to work to reverse the trends of the courts.
Sedonaman is right, as economist Murray Rothbard said “It is often not long after something becomes legal it becomes compulsory.” Already some Democrats talk of mandatory contraception and abortion from Catholic hospitals, where would it end?

I think of the example of a priest, whom my sister asked due to insurance reasons, to perform her marriage and than have it publicly recorded later, that way she was a least married. He refused out of fear of the consequences! Is this what our Church is reduced to? Trembling before the State over and institution it has sole authority over?

Unless we stand now to stop our descent and make real change, it will certainly not stop here. There is always more to come, and we will lose our power to stop it unless we act now.
 
The walls are closing in on us. We must realize that madness, once unleashed, knows no bounds. Recall that when this movement started over 40 years ago, homosexuals said all they wanted was to be left alone. Therefore, when we contrast that desire then with their demands today, we should rightfully conclude that being left alone was not their only want, and legal recognition of homosexual “marriage” will not be the last of their demands. Their ultimate goal, according to what I’ve heard them say it, is total validation and acceptance. In other words, they want our hearts and souls. Whether we realize it not, the Church is facing a Nietzschean battle of a will-to-power. Besides being an in-your-face insult to Christian teaching, what greater symbol of the achievement of these goals could there be other than churches, especially the Catholic Church, be required to perform marriage ceremonies for homosexual couples? There will be no option left but for the Church to capitulate.

What should the Church do? Wait to see how things will play out in the political arena? I think not.
It might work. Maybe you should suggest this to the leaders of the church.
 
Here’s a prayer:

Lord, please release homosexuals from the bondage of their sin. Take them out of their deception. Give them Your wisdom, guidance and Truth. Give them Your Holy Spirit, and help them to accept Jesus into their hearts. Bless our nation, protect our present laws which strive to keep the Judeo-Christian morals and values that were instilled since the beginning of time and for which our country was founded upon. Lighten the darkness of our hearts that we may do Your will in the whole of our lives showing love and compassion to the hurting and downtrodden and bringing Your light to all. In the name of Jesus.
 
… The fathers of the constitution wanted equality for all no matter how different people are from each other.
Pure and utter baloney.
The United States Constitution, Fourteenth Amendment, provides that ‘No State shall . . . deny to any person . . . the equal protection of the laws.’
These provisions, however, do not create a general requirement of equality. The law does not and cannot treat all persons – young and old, weak and strong, rich and poor, male and female, and so on – as equal in all regards. The very purpose of law is to classify (discriminate among) people for different treatment; for example, burglary statutes distinguish burglars from non-burglars. Blacks, women, and 18-year-olds have the right to vote, while aliens and felons do not, not because of any principle or requirement of equality (or “equal protection”), but because they [Blacks, women, and 18-year-olds] were given the right by the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-Sixth Amendments, respectively.
– Lino A. Graglia, Professor of Constitutional Law, University of Texas School of Law, Austin, Texas; “Single-Sex ‘Marriage’: The Role of the Courts”
Unquote

And that’s the way it should be, i.e., laws being made by the people through their representatives, and not by judges trying to force on society the academy’s latest cause célèbre.
 
Same sex attraction is a psychological problem and such a marriage would be damaging to the individuals in them.

They should remain friends, not lovers.
I am not surprised by the attitudes I’ve seen on this thread about homosexuality. Its easy to judge those who are different than us, but it’s not right to be so righteously judgmental when “we” have never experienced or walked a mile in “their” shoes. There is a psychological component to homosexuality. Additionally, homosexuality has a genetic and environmental component as well. God does not hate homosexuals any more than any other person who fails to live up to the ideal.

People often use Paul’s writings as a pre-text to show how much God hates homosexuality. When properly understood within the culture of his day, men and women who were normally heterosexual were exchanging these relationships for unnatural ones, much like today’s problem in popular culture. Kids are being told go ahead and kiss boys and girls…it’s ok. That kind of indiscriminate sexual exploration is what Paul addressed, not those born with a genetic defect, those sexually molested or those suffering from a psychological condition. Common sense would dictate that those people truly afflicted would be incapable of living the ideal through no fault of their own will be held to a different standard. Its not our place to judge or discriminate against those who are different than most of us for those reasons. A person who steals a loaf of bread to feed their family (out of true need) would not be judged the same as a person who steals a bunch of clothes from a store just for the thrill of it even though both are equally wrong according to the law.

Frankly justifying homophobia and discriminating against people based on fear goes against the churches teachings. The church is not going to be “forced” to marry people they don’t want to. The wall of separation between church and state works both ways. The Catholic church can’t force the government to do anything it doesn’t want to and vice versa.

I believe the simple solution for the gay marriage issue is to simply get the state out of the marriage business. If the state no longer sanctions marriage by issuing licenses that grant automatic privileges, then it is up to their religious leaders who is married with a ceremony in a church and who is not. This would give the traditional marriage right to the church, while leaving the “right” of free association to those wishing to have alternative arrangements. For legal reasons everyone wishing to be responsible and obligated (legally) would go through the same civil process.
 
Homophobia? Is that a valid state of mind recognized by the American Psychological Association?

Fear? Of what? Redefining marriage is the issue. Men and women are biologically and psychologically compatible to conceive and raise the next generation of human beings. That is the natural, functional purpose of marriage; to provide a stable home for the young until they reach maturity.

Already, the intelligentsia is planning for Beyond Gay Marriage.

firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=330

Already, in Massachussetts, the State is forcing young kids to read a gay story book. The parents cannot opt out.

massresistance.org/docs/parker/

Peace,
Ed
 
Absolutely! I have Catholic friends who say, ‘I shouldn’t force my beliefs on society.’ I say, society has tremendous influence on our children and I, for one, would like my children to grow up in a society that reinforces what I believe is right, and therefore I do not vote for laws that will do the opposite.

And we have a moral obligation to help others get to heaven. “Catholic” means “universal.” God is universal, and we are ALL His children. Every one of us can get to heaven. It’s not right to simply say, “Well, I’ll follow His way so I can get to heaven, but I don’t care if other people just do whatever they want.” We need to help our brothers and sisters, and that means living what we believe and supporting it by the way we vote. We must never give up hope that our actions can change the minds of non-believers. Even if we fail, we still have an obligation to try.
Isn’t it ironic how people don’t want us to “force our beliefs on society”, yet society continually tries to ram their secular humanist relativism beliefs down our throats. They nab society’s young, impressionable, innocent chidren so early and start their ramming as soon as they hit the age of reason! RAM, RAM, RAM! And we parents are supposed to sit idly by and be “tolerant” while they brainwash our babies. :mad:
 
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