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SHW
Guest
Divorce and polygamy and concubinage are immoral. This is why Jesus made sure His Disciples knew that this was not God’s original plan and so He specifically restated God’s original plan of marriage: one man joins one woman into one flesh by sacramental union until the death of one of the spouses.
Any persons deviating from God’s plan for marriage, those who have sex outside of its bonds, will not inherit eternal life. There can be no sexual unions outside of the sacrament of marriage as defined by God. Anyone who does have sexual relations outside of the sacrament of marriage and who does not repent before death will not inherit eternal life. This is the truth. You may not like it, but it is Truth.
Yes, we have many Catholics In Name Only attending the Catholic Church. Their nickname is CINOs. Many so-called “Catholic Universities” are cesspools and do not teach the Catholic faith.
Any person who attends the Catholic Church who does not believe what the pope and magisterium teach about homosexual sin is a CINO. He has created his own religion and it is not Catholic.
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Alisa
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“two color” version of Catholicism? What is that?
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sedonaman
Guest
See FromTheCrossroa’s post #644.
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San5210
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I have to admit I don’t have the patients to read through all of the (over 40 pages) comments already on this thread but I do want to add my two cents:
First off, I agree with the above poster(FromTheCrosroa) for the most part and find it very upsetting that my church has put so much energy and money into meddling in politics when my understanding of the mission of the Catholic Church is to spread the word of God. That word being one of Love. I find it particularly disappointing when those who have spent so much time, energy, money attempting to deny anyone of something they enjoy (or mistreat) themselves claim that they are the victims. I’m struck with the irony that the Church continues to hide and avoid paying for the horrific abuses perpetrated by clergy yet can raise millions for political campaigns. Where are the priorities here? Why didn’t this money feed the hungry, house the homeless, treat the sick?
Secondly, I’ve noticed several comments to the effect that homosexuality is a psychological illness of some kind. As a mental health professional, I find it extremely shocking that this lie is still being repeated. Not only repeated, but repeated by the same people that also believe homosexuality is a choice. Please look at the research on ex-gay treatment programs, they are ineffective and traumatizing. Asking people to deny who they are is not healthy, moral, sustainable, or ideal for society.
As I watch couples struggling to put food on the table, pay for health care, and raise thoughtful, caring, and considerate children I wonder why anyone who felt secure in thier beliefs would want to make it harder for them.
I think it was a mistake to vote on anyone’s rights. Why would the majority decide on the rights of a minority? Think if we had voted on civil rights in the 1960’s, what would the majority have decided and where would we be today?
I imagine how Jesus would feel about maintaining a status quo of exclusion and judgment. That’s what gives me the strength to remain a part of a church that so often falls short of showing love and respect for everyone.
First off, I agree with the above poster(FromTheCrosroa) for the most part and find it very upsetting that my church has put so much energy and money into meddling in politics when my understanding of the mission of the Catholic Church is to spread the word of God. That word being one of Love. I find it particularly disappointing when those who have spent so much time, energy, money attempting to deny anyone of something they enjoy (or mistreat) themselves claim that they are the victims. I’m struck with the irony that the Church continues to hide and avoid paying for the horrific abuses perpetrated by clergy yet can raise millions for political campaigns. Where are the priorities here? Why didn’t this money feed the hungry, house the homeless, treat the sick?
Secondly, I’ve noticed several comments to the effect that homosexuality is a psychological illness of some kind. As a mental health professional, I find it extremely shocking that this lie is still being repeated. Not only repeated, but repeated by the same people that also believe homosexuality is a choice. Please look at the research on ex-gay treatment programs, they are ineffective and traumatizing. Asking people to deny who they are is not healthy, moral, sustainable, or ideal for society.
As I watch couples struggling to put food on the table, pay for health care, and raise thoughtful, caring, and considerate children I wonder why anyone who felt secure in thier beliefs would want to make it harder for them.
I think it was a mistake to vote on anyone’s rights. Why would the majority decide on the rights of a minority? Think if we had voted on civil rights in the 1960’s, what would the majority have decided and where would we be today?
I imagine how Jesus would feel about maintaining a status quo of exclusion and judgment. That’s what gives me the strength to remain a part of a church that so often falls short of showing love and respect for everyone.
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SHW
Guest
Jesus is the one who taught this teaching through His Church:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He will not be changing His mind! (Hebrews 13:8)
“Love” is obeying His commandments. (2 John 1:6, 1 John 5:3, John 14:21)
Paul states this about those who preach another gospel other than His which is Jesus’ gospel: “As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:9
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EnchantedEve
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I am still not clear how one can have a “right” to marry. This does not make sense. A right is something that inately exists within ourselves that defends and maintains our personal survival. Marriage, while an important and essential component in society, is not necessary for all to survive and thrive, and therefore is not a right. If marriage was a right, would not the Catholic Church being violating this right for priests by mandating celibacy? The current argument seems to be over the denial of legal recognition to a newly fabricated institution, namely homosexual marriage, which has not existed before. This appears to be basically a debate over the allocation of benefits. The leadership of the homosexual movement wishes to achieve this by placating an existing institution, marriage, and claiming it for themselves, which is not possible. They are crossing two different concerns, marriage and benefits, and making them one, largely because the State does. There are cleary numerous other solutions to this problem and giving homosexuals recognition for their invalid nuptials is not the only one. As I said before, this issue is larger than marriage, and will grow to become an even larger problem if not addressed properly now. The direction this is headingtoward will harm all people, including homosexuals. Let us pray we have the strength to recognize this.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Eve, most of your posts are just hopelessly rational and sensible, based as they are on the correct premises of U.S. Constitutional Civil law.
I can hardly improve on them.
It is a indication of the level of rhetoric and polemic in this country that one can scarcely turn on the MSM (mainstream media) without the formulaic popular platitudes and inaccuracies abounding. Even John Dean tonight, otherwise a reformed, sober, and clear thinker about government since his turnaround from a corrupt administration to a stand-up contributing member of society, even he got off base tonight when talking about this issue.
In usual simplistic sound-bite thinking & words that the American public easily gets reduced to, it seems that we are now greeted daily with “either/or” labels: You’re either “for equal rights” (interpreted via several intellectual leaps as gay “marriage”), or you’re “discriminatory” and “a homophobe.” Eve should be advising the state and federal courts, methinks.
Lots of prominent and not-so-prominent Americans need a serious course in logic, which is the foundation of all law, and is why the LSAT is constructed as it is. The law proceeds logically, but that cannot be mistranslated as “simplistically.” Most people, not having been trained in that discipline, are not able to keep categories separate and conversely to know which categories under which circumstances are fundamentally linked. Rather, Americans are spoonfed emotional and inflammatory “reasoning” by the MSM, and have not the educational discipline to withstand its errors. It infects columnists and news anchors. (Way beyond the gay “marriage” issue: many other issues similarly inappropriately reduced to simplistic & superficial phrases and understandings.)
Keep grounded, Eve. More power to ya’.
I can hardly improve on them.It is a indication of the level of rhetoric and polemic in this country that one can scarcely turn on the MSM (mainstream media) without the formulaic popular platitudes and inaccuracies abounding. Even John Dean tonight, otherwise a reformed, sober, and clear thinker about government since his turnaround from a corrupt administration to a stand-up contributing member of society, even he got off base tonight when talking about this issue.
In usual simplistic sound-bite thinking & words that the American public easily gets reduced to, it seems that we are now greeted daily with “either/or” labels: You’re either “for equal rights” (interpreted via several intellectual leaps as gay “marriage”), or you’re “discriminatory” and “a homophobe.” Eve should be advising the state and federal courts, methinks.
Lots of prominent and not-so-prominent Americans need a serious course in logic, which is the foundation of all law, and is why the LSAT is constructed as it is. The law proceeds logically, but that cannot be mistranslated as “simplistically.” Most people, not having been trained in that discipline, are not able to keep categories separate and conversely to know which categories under which circumstances are fundamentally linked. Rather, Americans are spoonfed emotional and inflammatory “reasoning” by the MSM, and have not the educational discipline to withstand its errors. It infects columnists and news anchors. (Way beyond the gay “marriage” issue: many other issues similarly inappropriately reduced to simplistic & superficial phrases and understandings.)
Keep grounded, Eve. More power to ya’.
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Benadam
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EnchantedEve
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San5210;5253093:
Fantastic point. This is one of the “larger issues” that the homosexual debate encompasses, the primacy of our sexual identities and private sex tastes. Thank you for pointing this out.
Oh, and thank you, Elizabeth502, for you kind and considerate words. I am deeply humbled.
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CoG
Guest
San5210 Homosexuality is a genetic addiction problem. It has been discovered it test of identical twins that the genetic make up changes over a lifetime. Our actions change who and what we are. The changes are not just mental but over time become genetic. It is only by choice and will that we make ourselves into what we wish to be. Without understanding the nature of science, our forefathers understood that you must act the role to become who you wanted to be. This is called character.
Today men act like animals and sure enough, they become animals.
The intent of God is for men and woman with God to create new souls that through free will of choice will spend eternity with God. This special intent of God raised us above the animal and animal instinct.
Homosexuality denies and acts against the intent of God and tries to bring society down to the level of animals. It is required to follow the intent of God to respect life and the process of life at all stages of life.
Marriage is recognized by the state as a valuable institution of society and is given special consideration for that value.
Homosexuality is an insult to the intent of God and society.
Today men act like animals and sure enough, they become animals.
The intent of God is for men and woman with God to create new souls that through free will of choice will spend eternity with God. This special intent of God raised us above the animal and animal instinct.
Homosexuality denies and acts against the intent of God and tries to bring society down to the level of animals. It is required to follow the intent of God to respect life and the process of life at all stages of life.
Marriage is recognized by the state as a valuable institution of society and is given special consideration for that value.
Homosexuality is an insult to the intent of God and society.
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toughcritic
Guest
I totally agree and commend your thoughtful and courageous attitude on this troubling subject. Not ever having been in your particular situation I cannot speak authoritatively on the psyche of the homosexual but I would guess that that particular attraction or addiction is not much different than those persons with addictions to drugs, liquor, food or heterosexual sex. Sooner or later the person who wants to change the damaging behavior has to do tough love on him or herself. It can be done as I’ve seen it in my own family. I only hope your message resounds through the homosexual community and more speak out as you have done.
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fix
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We need to go back to fundamentals and define our terms like love, rights, meddling, and much else. Moral relativism has taken such a hold on our culture we cannot see what is true.
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sedonaman
Guest
It has been said that religion is the conscience of society, and I believe that. The Church “meddles into politics” because it has an obligation to motivate citizens to build a just society. [Most of the early abolitionists were religious leaders, and if it hadn’t been for them motivating people to abolish slavery, it might still exist in America. The first amendment doesn’t prohibit religion from influencing the political arena; it prohibits **government from meddling in religion.] Working to build a more just society is part of love of neighbor. See CCCC #1913-27 vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c2a2.htm#III and “Forming Conscience For Faithful Citizenship” usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf issued by the USCCB.
See “Considerations Regarding Proposals To Give Legal Recognition To Unions Between Homosexual Persons”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
What hiding? The Bishops established a committee which included lay men and women to study the problem and recommend solutions. It has been all made public. As a member of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, I, along with other various ministers and employees of the church had to attend Safe Environment Training to prevent further abuse. Besides, if they’ve been hiding it, how do you know about it ?
What money raised for political campaigns? I’ve been attending Mass every week for the last 60+ years and have never heard a request for campaign donations. Do you have a reference?
All one has to do is imagine two men in bed sodomizing each other to know something just isn’t right.
The failure of a treatment doesn’t mean homosexuality is normal. By your line of reasoning, disease would be normal because bleeding didn’t work.
See Section II of “Considerations Regarding Proposals To Give Legal Recognition To Unions Between Homosexual Persons vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html , cecond paragraph beginning with, “It might be asked how a law can be contrary to the common good…”
We are not talking about anyone’s rights.
“I have come not to unite but to divide.”
The church has always stressed the dignity of the human person, including that of homosexuals. I have heard more homilies on the human dignity of homosexuals than homilies requesting political contributions. You have a lot of reading to catch up on.
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fix
Guest
This is the gay agenda at work right here. For any democracy to work it must be infused with moral values. Freedom is not doing whatever you want.
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fix
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Right, that is the basic problem which is related to the misunderstanding of freedom and rights. Everything is viewed as a “right” today and license is now called freedom.
It is Alice in Wonderland for sure.
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Leetoy
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I thank and glorify God that same sex marriage has just been outlawed in L.A., California. Glory to God that the normal way of being and getting married have won that marriage is only for persons with the opposite sex, that is furthermore, for man and a woman or for a woman and a man.
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ladybri77
Guest
San5210, thank you for posting. I would hope that I am loving toward all others no matter who they are or what they struggle with. In being loving, I would want to tell them the Truth, that homosexuality is a sin and therefore could harm them spiritually and/or emotionally.
May I also add that there are plenty of studies done and many others and my own personal experiences of broken gender identity through sexual, emotional and physical abuse which causes persons who have not developed in their full capacity, emotionally or psychologically to seek out the same sex OR opposite sex for love in unhealthy/unnatural ways to fill this intense need. We all need certain developmental guidelines of proper nurturing and love in order to develop fully. There are many books also written on this subject, however, there are NO PROVEN SCIENTIFIC studies as to there being such thing as a GAY GENE.
I do not agree with “reparative” therapy, but I do believe if one is Christian, Catholic and loves God, or for whatever other reason can choose to remain celibate. In so doing, many have found fulfillment in the single life through friends, hobbies, worship, service, etc., and in remaining celibate have found that their same sex attractions have become lessened. This doesn’t always happen, but if we truly want to remain true to God and ourselves, we do have a CHOICE to remain celibate, God will give us the grace to do it. That’s what God wishes for us, to make our best efforts, and He will provide the rest.
I’ve had bad experiences in that lifestyle. It really wasn’t fulfilling after awhile and I knew I was going against God’s will for me. We all have struggles and weaknesses. That’s the human condition. God didn’t create us this way, we all have a “choice” to act on the weaknesses we have. He created us to be without sin, but then sin entered the world through Eve’s choice. He didn’t create disease, anomalies, addictions, homosexuality or any other weakness. It’s when sin entered the world, that these things entered in.
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edwest2
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What is destroying this society is the breakdown in the 90-95 percent of heterosexuals un-parenting their children. The problems in this society are from the breakdown of the typical " are not because two men or women give a child a two parent home. Whether two men or women who represent a very small part of the population want to be married has not and will not erode society. What is eroding our society is the choice by parents to indiscriminately bring children into the world and then let others raise their children ( day care/schools/teachers pastors/churches).
Polygamy is not immoral, just not practiced in our western culture. There are plenty of examples of polygamy in the Bible and at no time was it ever talked about as immoral. David and Solomon had not only wives but mistresses as well. The only time David got in trouble for his sexual exploits (as it were) was when he decided to take the wife of another man and kill him in the process.
There is a profound difference between two consenting adults choosing to enter into a legally binding contract and those who can not consent. You are not making a valid argument against homosexual “marriage” when bringing up these other groups that are tantamount to rape.
I say it again. Because states got involved in sanctioning marriages and endowed legal rights to two people entering a marriage contract, they in essence have caused the problem. Catholics and other Christians are making the problem worse by setting the precedent for discriminatory amendments by a simple majority vote. It doesn’t mean our rights like free speech, freedom of religion and the right to bear arms are gone, but it certainly is more believable that these rights could be re-defined by a vote as well.
The only two plausible solutions are the state gets out of the marriage business altogether and allow marriage to be a religious event, or the states continue issuing such contracts/licenses and allow any two people to enter into a legally binding agreement that offers the same rights and endowments indiscriminately.
To me, my beliefs, faith and my marriage, I could care less if a homosexual couple calls their ceremony marriage. It doesn’t re-define my marriage, does it re-define yours? It shouldn’t, nor should we have such thin skins that we write laws to protect our marriage from THEM. These resources and energy are better spent on our communities and families in need of help.
Once again, the distraction argument: look over there while we do something over here.
You should care that a small group of people want to redefine marriage. To make society accept it by force. In Massachussetts, little kids, who are not mentally and emotionally ready, are being forced, by the State, to read a gay storybook. Their parents cannot opt out.
Beyond Gay Marriage, which includes multiple sex partners, is in the planning stages. Next in line is the people who sexually abuse animals followed by the Man-Boy Love Association. Consensual incest has been legalized in Europe.
So this is about sex. I read an article that would turn people’s stomachs about “mammal-mammal love.” I don’t think I have to say more.
Peace,
Ed
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