Gay Marriage and Freedom of Religion

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I appreciate all the posts following mine, but particularly Benadam’s, and of his, these three points:
I think it’s plain that the desires that gave birth to the sin against hospitality at Sodom was SSA. To say the sin is against hospitality as if there was no sin against hospitality doesn’t make sense does it? The sin commited against hospitality at Sodom is obvious.
The concept of hospitality, when discussing this passage, is introduced a lot in modern scriptural discussions. Yes, hospitality was a serious and even hallowed requirement in that culture. The best parallel I can think of is possibly patriotism in the modern world, which is also an assumed & essential trait of someone identifying with a particular nation- culture. But in both cases one has to do something that rises to the level of scandal and shock to earn significant punishment, rejection, exile, etc. Acts of omission, even in ancient culture, would not have by themselves been enough. As in other places in the OT, it is always acts of commission – direct repudiation, deliberate activity – that results in destruction or self-destruction. (Self-destruction is often described as destruction by God.)

Skeptics like to bring up the concept of alternative biblical lifestyles (polygamy, etc.) to support the notion that somehow the ancients lived in something of an open, free-love society. But while formal partnership structures developed over time, the natural order of things was considered an absolute, not something evolving. When it came to personal moral behavior, they considered themselves having few choices, those choices reflecting what was most obviously primal and elemental to them. What we call ‘nature’ (the physical world) was the avenue by which they knew God and through which God ‘spoke’ to them. So while the formal concept of natural law is a modern intellectual construct, it was an intuitive construct to the ancient Israelites, informing both their developing religious law and their language about God.

Later Jews of pre- and early Christiainity would distinguish themselves from Roman and Greek culture partly by their rejection of homosexuality. And as to the latter, both Roman and Greek cultures would have laughed at the concept of SSA being the causation for homosexuality. Rather, homosexuality was a chosen additional sexual behavior, accepted openly by those dominant cultures as rites of passage concurrent with heterosexual behavior and heterosexual ‘preference.’ IOW, they chose bisexual behavior and understood it as a choice and a ‘privilege.’

In academic scriptural discussions of which I’ve been a part, it’s always the apologists for modern homosexuality that like to reduce the significance of Sodom in a political attempt at modern ‘inclusion.’
Most of it ‘homosexuality’ in nature] is mock sexual behaviour that communicates status because of the dominant submissive roles of reproduction . The rest is due to lack of available stimulus to satisfy the urge functionally. You don’t find animals seeking to satisfy sexual stimulus from their own gender if there is available stimulus in the environment that would fulfill it’s purpose.
This is apparent in the scientific studies. Homosexuality in nature is aberrant, and occurs by default and within certain circumstances. It is a reaction behavior and not “SSA.” (If only animals could laugh.)
I am a divorced single man for 9 years who is raising two teenage sons. I am chaste and I haven’t met anyone nor am I really trying. I am happy to be an example of proper life as a single male in our society for the sake of my sons. I am called to a life denying the urge to seek sexual stimulus. I didn’t want this but it is what I should do and it has become extermely rewarding. It is not a curse but a death/birth experience that activates and fulfills my Baptism.
Even temporary celibacy is quite freeing. If one arrives there by chance, whether in the interim or permanently (as a lay rather than as a religious), one should use it as an opportunity to experience the grace of universal Christian love. It really is a grace: you are given the gift of ‘seeing’ the universal, mystical Body of Christ in others, of extending your attachments and commitments widely. Ask for this grace if you have not experienced it and find yourself single.🙂
 
Okay, what do you guys have to say about this verse:

**Romans 1:26-27:

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
**
 
Okay, what do you guys have to say about this verse:

**Romans 1:26-27:

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
**
Not sure what you mean, ‘What Do We Have To Say About It?’ Do you think we are disagreeing with you? Or that we’re challenging Paul? :hmmm:

It seems to me that we’re challenging the favorite popular argument that some men and women are “born” to “abandon natural relations” with the opposite sex and be “inflamed with lust for one another.” Unless people believe that an entire male population of ancient Rome and ancient Greece were “born bisexual” (couldn’t control themselves), then the evidence supplied by civilizations throughout history supports that varieties of sexual behavior are conditioned by culture, rather than determined by “inborn attraction.”

“My genes made me do it” doesn’t wash. We are open and receptive at birth. Your genes placed you at birth somewhere on a spectrum of tendencies when it came to future sexual inclinations. Combined with your innate personality (not your “sexuality,” but your temperament) and a multiplicity of factors in your environment from that birth through puberty and beyond, an attraction to one gender over the other possibly became solidified over time as a more comfortable and obvious “preference.”

And if so, the same thing happened to ancient Roman men and ancient Greek men. Oh, but wait: All those who were heterosexual from birth somehow managed to force themselves habitually to have sex with the same gender long after their ‘born heterosexual’ nature was well established, proving that there is absolutely nothing ‘deterministic’ about sexuality.
 
alan1941. First, your assumption that there have been misstranslations of the bible is simply off base. You don’t point to any example and claim a specific misstranslation. You only declare what the bible say is presumtively incorrect.Overall, biblical experts have determined that the texts we have today at more than 99% accurate.
(See Habermas, “Recent Perspectives on the Reliability of the Gospels”at garyhabermas.com/articles/crj_recentperspectives/crj_recentperspectives.htm citing John Wenham, Christ and the Bible (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1984), 186-187.)
The homosexual conduct prohibition is repeated quite a few times in the OT and the new. Jesus himself affirmed “the law.” There has been more scrutinization of the bible than any other text, I dare say, in human history. Saying the texts are probably messed up so the homosexual life style is probably oK is like wishful thinking. It’s unfounded. So, your premise is erroneous. Citing these many verses isn’t “interpretation” at all.

Regarding old rules, many were superceded. Circumcision was an absolute mandate for the ancient Jews but after Christ gave Peter the authority as the Rock to continue his church with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, the early chruch decided circumcision was unnecessary for Gentiles. The Levitical dietary prohibitions Christ declared as not pertaining to morality. (Acts 10:13-17) Christ specifically stated marriage was not to be put asunder, despite Moses allowed divorce). Christ never addressed homosexual conduct specifically but he affirmed the law. There is nothing in scripture which could even tend to view homosexual conduct as OK.

see also the Catholic Catechism, sections 2357-2359. These are harsh facts, indeed. Those who point to these responses to the homosexual movement are interpreted as hateful. It’s not hateful. It’s just the way it is and the community doesn’t like it so they shout in response. The homosexual movement is in extreme denial, an outgrowth of the feel good 60’s I think. It is an incredible burden to “be” homosexual and come to terms with these facts. I would also point you to read the stories of formerly active homosexuals and how they talk about their conversions. There was a fascinating one on the “Journey Home” TV program some time ago. They’re all available online too. I coudn’t find it but there are many out there. It took years for the one man to see that the homosexual life style is emotionally and spiritually empty.

It is a complex thing to discuss. It’s a moral issue, a religious issue (Christianity and natural law), a legal issue, an historical issue. The movement response to any claim that homosexual conduct is immoral is immediate dismissal. This is strikingly similar to how militant the pro-choice people were and some still are. You couldn’t even have a discussion at all which included the possibility that abortion should be made illegal. Now many years later, with advanced science and technology, many see that upon the joining of male and female cells there is a human life begun with human DNA. You don’t hear the argument any more that it’s just a lump of tissue. That was a main argument 30 years ago. There is an ackowledgment of life, although, they still claim a right to abort. The homosexuality issue, is similar. I think there will be gay marriage, lots of gay adoption and I won’t live long enough to see the beginning of the roll back of it all in about 30-50 years. If the world is still here, I think there will be a return to nuclear families. This is not to diss gay people. Sorry, for carrying on so long. Points needed to be made.
 
To start of, I’m not being sarcastic. That being said, are those who are against gay marriage also against the freedom of religion? I don’t like how the emails this site sends out places it in the same category as things like abortion, and euthanasia. Those two violate human life, which is universal to all humans. Gay marriage, on the other hand, does not take away life nor limit the rights of others. I’m curious as to why people believe that gay marriage should not be allowed in the country when it falls more so under the category of freedom of religion. 🤷
Thank you for asking the question.
 
To start, I’m goign to have to ignore all of the discussion about homosexuality being right or wrong. There is obviously a difference of opinion and there are tons of topics on it every day here. The question was, why, in a nation housing people of both opinons, should one trump the other? If gay marraiage were allowed, peopel would be free to practice, but not forced, hence facilicationg both beliefs. If it is not allowed, one side is free to practice, but the other is not…

Please stop all discussion on the morality/basis/opinion of homosexuality. That was never the question.
Freedom of religion is a two-way street. If you want to argue that freedom of religion requires acceptance of gay marriage, then, at the same time, your belief in freedom of religion requires acceptance of those religions that are working hard to eliminate gay marriage. Therefore, you should not be here trying to convince us to abandon our views, if you truly believe in freedom of religion.

That said, I’m still trying to find evidence that there is freedom of religion in this country. We’ve enjoyed nothing more than freedom from persecution. That’s changing, however. The state is turning the screws on the private sector and moving towards elimination of healthcare conscience clauses and financial punishment of those who do not fall in line…
I was never trying to convince anyone to abandon anything.
homosexual sexual actions do not promote life. A form of contraception? It resolves into a life issue as does abortion, euthanasia and other life issues. Sexual relations were meant by God, according to the Bible, to help humanity procreate. This is a basis for the Church to say artificial contraception is not acceptable to the will of God. Homosexual sexual activity falls under the Natural Law. Homosexuality is not a natural state of physical or spiritual being. Acted upon, it is also a subversion of what is naturally the tendencies of humans in the area of sexuality.
okay, if you see homosexuality as a form of contraception, why should it not be legal like many other forms? The government does not forbid something just because it involves sex but doesn’t produce life. The question was not on why the church disagreed with it, but why it should be upheld in the legal realm. Your last 3 sentences are all religious beliefs that not all people under our government share.
 
To start of, I’m not being sarcastic. That being said, are those who are against gay marriage also against the freedom of religion? I don’t like how the emails this site sends out places it in the same category as things like abortion, and euthanasia. Those two violate human life, which is universal to all humans. Gay marriage, on the other hand, does not take away life nor limit the rights of others. I’m curious as to why people believe that gay marriage should not be allowed in the country when it falls more so under the category of freedom of religion. 🤷
How can it be an infringement on YOUR religion to oppose gay marriage? Gay marriage is a religion? I would grant you this. In the scheme of what’s worse, abortion and euthanasia probably are worse than gay marriage. Gay marriage doesn’t take away life, I agree. It does impact others however, in ways we’ve discussed. It surrenders a basic objection on moral grounds and opens the door to other objectionable things. If what you really meant was to complain that opposing gay marriage IMPOSES a religion on others, you’d have to agree some basic societal mores derive from religion. The prohibition against murder and marriage itself derives from religious practices. People oppose gay marriage on general moral grounds but there is much more that would infringe on their religion. If it is legalized, will the government require all clerics to marry anyone? Will they be allowed to decline on religious grounds? Will Catholic priests be told they must marry gays? Must the Knights of Columbus rent out their hall for gay weddings? Will people be threatened with criminal punishment for speaking their religious beliefs on gay marriage? Forced to submit to their children taught gay sensitivity in public schools against their personal faiths? These things have happened or have been proposed already. These ARE ways in which gay marriage would infringe on everybody else and they are things the gay movement has pushed for. As it is, the pop culture has duped the youth into regarding anyone who is against gay marriage as a bigot on par with Nazis because it’s fashionable to diss and discount Christians, particularly Catholics. THAT is infringement of religion. And that’s where this is all heading.

You have only convinced me more of what I already thought. You WANT gay marriage and BELIEVE it should be allowed. None of the arguments in favor of it stand up to scrutiny. I think you’d have better luck arguing there should be gay marriage because people want it and they vote.
 
You need to read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” so that you understand why we believe what we do.
As Elizabeth said, I am Catholic and I am familiar with the Catechism and if you have read you will note that it says that homosexual acts are “objectively” disordered which means that a Gay Catholic can disagree with Church teaching subjectively, i.e. what is objectively sinful according to Church teaching may not be subjectively sinful for a Gay person.
 
Thank you for asking the question.
To start of, I’m not being sarcastic. That being said, are those who are against gay marriage also against the freedom of religion? I don’t like how the emails this site sends out places it in the same category as things like abortion, and euthanasia. Those two violate human life, which is universal to all humans. Gay marriage, on the other hand, does not take away life nor limit the rights of others. I’m curious as to why people believe that gay marriage should not be allowed in the country when it falls more so under the category of freedom of religion. 🤷
Because homosexual unions are NEVER life giving and they are under the natural law, they are unnatural. More of a moral issue than a religious one …

Also some misguided religions accept homosexual unions. The Catholic Church does not.
 
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