Gay Marriage and the Social Issues Surrounding It

[markeverett49]

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When one uses Scripture to support the argument against abortion it allows the hearer to say, “Well, abortion is a religious issue.” NOPE. Abortion can be (and ought to be) opposed by ANYONE, religious or not.

I agree with this, however I think sometimes Christians ‘turn the other cheek a little too far’ when they say they will make all their arguments without appeal to Scripture or faith. I get it that you have to reach people who don’t hold the faith, but it is not as if the assumption of many that there is no God or that religious reasons are bunk should be privileged in discussions. Why should they be?

 

[PRmerger]

I get it that you have to reach people who don’t hold the faith,

Right! And quoting Scripture to them is going to be as effective to them as a Muslim quoting the Koran to you.

but it is not as if the assumption of many that there is no God or that religious reasons are bunk should be privileged in discussions. Why should they be?

Because, mark, it’s fruitless to start from the premise, “Since God exists…” when you are in dialogue with an atheist.

It’s like you’re in a dialogue with someone who’s just learning how to swim and she’s doing the dog-paddle. You don’t want to start with the instructions on how to do the butterfly.

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

Please return the topic of this thread. If you wish to start a thread about evangelization, please do so in the appropriate forum. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Acrossthedesert]

Ok so I know I’m going to open a can of worms. So before my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ start slashing my throat allow me to clarify what I mean.

I have absolutely no issues or problems with people of other beliefs, races, backgrounds or lifestyles. I have an open, loving heart towards anyone.

With that being said; Is it wrong of me not to care about same sex marriage outside of the Church? Meaning, if same sex people who are not Catholic want to get married in a secular place(courthouse, beach, etc) or in another religious institution that allows it. Does that make me less of a Catholic? I’m not asking or even looking for same sex marriage in the Church and have no issue with it not being permitted here. I’m talking about the rest of the world around us.

Not to care? Love God; Love neighbor; Love thy enemies… “I don’t care” cannot be found anywhere in our theology, our tradition, nor our practices.

John Paul II, Pope Benedict, and Vatican II are very clear that Christianity is a very public affair; We must be Christians in the public square.

 

[Acrossthedesert]

Right! And quoting Scripture to them is going to be as effective to them as a Muslim quoting the Koran to you.

Because, mark, it’s fruitless to start from the premise, “Since God exists…” when you are in dialogue with an atheist.

It’s like you’re in a dialogue with someone who’s just learning how to swim and she’s doing the dog-paddle. You don’t want to start with the instructions on how to do the butterfly.

No. It is not fruitless to say “God exists…” We are called to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

PRmerger, I have read many of your entries. You want to spread the Gospel, but not talking about God???

First seek the kingdom of God…

And if you are not spreading the Gospel, what are you doing?

 

[CopticChristian]

No. It is not fruitless to say “God exists**…” We are called to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ!**
PRmerger, I have read many of your entries. You want to spread the Gospel, but not talking about God???

First seek the kingdom of God…

And if you are not spreading the Gospel, what are you doing?

Across,

So we may be on the same page and so I may spread the gospel as you say…what is it you believe to be the gospel of Jesus Christ so that I may know what it is you spread so I too may spread it…

 

[Acrossthedesert]

Please return the topic of this thread. If you wish to start a thread about evangelization, please do so in the appropriate forum. Thank you for your cooperation.

Do you think that anything on this earth or in heaven can be considered without Christ! That is the subject! Gay marriage or abortion or any thing else is covered in the context of “Catholic Answers”. Any answer without Christ has nothing to do with “Catholic Answers”, and I therefore respectfully suggest that this forum by its very nature is centered on Christ.

That is the fundamental problem with the social justice paradigm. You think justice has nothing to do with Christ, nor the Gospel?

 

[CopticChristian]

Do you think that anything on this earth or in heaven can be considered without Christ! That is the subject! Gay marriage or abortion or any thing else is covered in the context of “Catholic Answers”. Any answer without Christ has nothing to do with “Catholic Answers”, and I therefore respectfully suggest that this forum by its very nature is centered on Christ.

That is the fundamental problem with the social justice paradigm. You think justice has nothing to do with Christ, nor the Gospel?

Across,

FYI…when you see the name “Matilda Bennett”…it usually means pay attention. Often you will see Matilda at the end of a thread saying…this thread is now closed. I believe that Matilda agrees with you however I would suggest sticking to the point of the thread.

 

[Acrossthedesert]

Across,

So we may be on the same page and so I may spread the gospel as you say…what is it you believe to be the gospel of Jesus Christ so that I may know what it is you spread so I too may spread it…

The Gospel is that revelation, the Jesus so loved the world the He sent his only son. I.e. God gave us everything.

In that CONTEXT are reaction to Gay Marriage or any other issue if formed. We have been told:

1. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
2. ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."

So, to talk about God (all the time) to everyone is part of #1. Many Catholics/Christians have forgotten that this is the first of the Great commandments. Next we should consider those good samaratins as our neighbor and love than as we care for ourselves.

The family is getting ready for Mass, and I must go for now (1st commandment). We should speak again.

 

[CopticChristian]

The Gospel is that revelation, the Jesus so loved the world the He sent his only son. I.e. God gave us everything.
In that CONTEXT are reaction to Gay Marriage or any other issue if formed. We have been told:

1. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
2. ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."

So, to talk about God (all the time) to everyone is part of #1. Many Catholics/Christians have forgotten that this is the first of the Great commandments. Next we should consider those good samaratins as our neighbor and love than as we care for ourselves.

The family is getting ready for Mass, and I must go for now (1st commandment). We should speak again.

Across,

So when I go out spreading the Gospel…I tell people that God loved the world, sent His Son and gave us everything…is that it?

 

[markeverett49]

Because, mark, it’s fruitless to start from the premise, “Since God exists…” when you are in dialogue with an atheist.

I get this. I would be satisfied if one could appeal to reason and a common sense of morality (-such as one finds in Aristotle) that makes no appeal to divine revelation. Consider a common ‘move’ in the abortion argument. I’m old enough to remember when the argument was ‘a fetus is not a human being.’ That argument is dead. The embryology is clear and pro-choice people have stopped arguing that a fetus is not a human being. Now they tend to take one of two paths: 1) the fetus is human but not a person–a socially-determined status–and therefore has no rights, or 2) a woman is not free unless she can terminate an unwanted pregnancy and it does not matter whether the fetus is a human being or a person or anything else. The first view allows reason a foothold but the second one does not. Never mind not being able to cite Scripture, one can’t cite embryology textbooks from secular scholars in secular universities! (“You are not only wrong, you are mean, and you hate women!”)

In arguments about same-sex marriage, one often encounters this point of view: anyone who is not pro-gay-rights who does research in this area should be condemned because they want to find a problem with homosexuality and since we already KNOW that it is fine and good, they cannot be right and since we know they cannot be right, there’s no use looking into this any further. (Some have made similar arguments about intelligence tests, and still others about sex differences. People are condemned for doing scientific research in areas where people already “just know” the truth and don’t want anyone messing with it.) If you think about this, the argument is a firm bias is required for science to be legitimate, and I don’t mean a ‘bias toward truth’ but a bias toward what result will be termed acceptable!

I would be happy with ‘follow the truth, wherever it leads,’ but what is increasingly common is for people to posit conclusions and deny that such conclusions require any grounding in argument. (Unless one thinks ‘abortion must be good because I’m not free if I can’t get one when I want’ is an argument.)

Many atheist philosophers have complained about relativism and skepticism. (Daniel Dennett tells the story of an academic who called him up to get a philosophy. Apparently, people were supposed to have them now and this fellow didn’t have one and he called a philosopher to provide him with one. Dennett hung up and who could blame him? Atheist though he is, Dennett was horrified that an academic would think of a philosophy as a sort of fashion accessory.)

 

[PRmerger]

I get this. I would be satisfied if one could appeal to reason and a common sense of morality (-such as one finds in Aristotle) that makes no appeal to divine revelation.

Then we are agreed and nothing more needs to be said on this.

One can defend the position “Homosexual marriages are wrong” without an appeal to reason and “common sense”, without citing the Scriptures and the Church.

 

[markeverett49]

One can defend the position “Homosexual marriages are wrong” without an appeal to reason and “common sense”, without citing the Scriptures and the Church.:

I think you mean “with” (or “by”) an appeal to reason. I agree this can be done but I am also aware that it will not work with people who doubt they need reasons to support their views. Many people claim to “just know” that homosexuality is a good thing and the equivalent of heterosexuality. (<<<I must admit I’ve never understood this use of “equivalent.”) You might say that for them it is an article of faith.

 

[PRmerger]

I think you mean “with” (or “by”) an appeal to reason.

Yes, yes. My bad!

 

[Acrossthedesert]

Across,

So when I go out spreading the Gospel…I tell people that God loved the world, sent His Son and gave us everything…is that it?

Everything you do should in some way show who you are and what you see. Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father.”

The more you know Jesus the more you will see the issue of Gay marriage in the context of God’s revelation. I am currently drawing an “editorial comic” that shows President Obama and the first Lady staring down at an apple which has been bittern. The apple is labled “Gay Marriage” Behind the Mrs. Obama I drew the serpent of the garden and he is labled “Gay Lobby”. The caption reads “Those who forget the past, are destined to repeat history.”

The knowledge of Good and Evil is the perogative of God alone.

 

[Acrossthedesert]

Of course, it goes without saying that one should not condone remarriage, shacking-up, sleeping around, pornography, etc. If one spends more time denouncing same sex marriage than decrying those other things, people will think one is playing “holier than thou” and is singling out those with same sex attraction unfairly. All those things are wrong, and it’s wrong to only denounce one of them.

I’m afraid that one of the reasons why same sex marriage opponents are having a hard time these days is because no one made anywhere near as much of a fuss when contraception and abortions were legalised or when no-fault divorce was introduced. It seems like proponents of traditional marriage are being hypocrites or are unfairly targeting a the temptations and burdens of a single segment of the population. This seems (because it is) terribly inconsistent and one-sided. Had everyone been as up in arms in the past about these other damages to the family, we wouldn’t even have same sex marriage today.

…

One needn’t mention scripture, God, religion, etc. to convey the truths that flow from these things, such as natural law, logic, maths, etc.

Thanks SgtSchultz for you critique. I will keep your comments in mind for any future formulations of this argument. However, I am obligated to point out that our most fundamental truths have their basis in revelation. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are only know to us through revelation. If you want to see arguments contrary to social justice, simply take God out of justice. Once God is removed, justice can be defined by anyone having whatever philosophy they choose. Just as people now wish to define marriage.

“if you want to corrupt a culture, first corrupt their language”

 

[Acrossthedesert]

In arguments about same-sex marriage, one often encounters this point of view: anyone who is not pro-gay-rights who does research in this area should be condemned because they want to find a problem with homosexuality and since we already KNOW that it is fine and good, they cannot be right and since we know they cannot be right, there’s no use looking into this any further. (Some have made similar arguments about intelligence tests, and still others about sex differences. People are condemned for doing scientific research in areas where people already “just know” the truth and don’t want anyone messing with it.) If you think about this, the argument is a firm bias is required for science to be legitimate, and I don’t mean a ‘bias toward truth’ but a bias toward what result will be termed acceptable!

Food for thought: Do you know the psychological community was lobbied to remove homosexuality from the list of abnormalities? How can anyone lobby a science? Should we lobby to the physics community that the Earth is flat? Makes no sense at all.

The proposition: Gay marriage is a matter of equality and therefore, gays should be allowed to attain a marriage license.

1. People are “equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,” For example, we have a natural right to speak, to religion, to assemble etc.
2. People do not have a natural right to a marriage licence. Licenses are given by governments (men) to bestow benefits.
3. The laws concerning marriage licenses and the associated benefits were written to encourage/promote marriage according to society’s Christian beliefs.
4. **Therefore, gay marriage is not about equality. Gay marriage is about promoting the acceptance of the “gay lifestyle”. **
5. People are righteous not to support gay marriage in that promoting this “lifestyle” is contrary to their beliefs.

For example, Catholics are righteous to oppose gay marriage because promoting a “gay lifestyle” is contrary to the mandates of their Church, its Sacred Tradition, and the natural law. **

“if you want to corrupt a culture, first corrupt their language”**

 

[CopticChristian]

Everything you do should in some way show who you are and what you see. Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father.”

The more you know Jesus the more you will see the issue of Gay marriage in the context of God’s revelation. I am currently drawing an “editorial comic” that shows President Obama and the first Lady staring down at an apple which has been bittern. The apple is labled “Gay Marriage” Behind the Mrs. Obama I drew the serpent of the garden and he is labled “Gay Lobby”. The caption reads “Those who forget the past, are destined to repeat history.”

The knowledge of Good and Evil is the perogative of God alone.

Across,

I think you might want to spend some time reading Veritatis Splendor…John Paul II disagrees with you…

Man is able to recognize good and evil thanks to that discernment of good from evil which he himself carries out by his reason, in particular by his reason enlightened by Divine Revelation and by faith, through the law which God gave to the Chosen People, beginning with the commandments on Sinai.

 

[Faithdancer]

Please return the topic of this thread. If you wish to start a thread about evangelization, please do so in the appropriate forum. Thank you for your cooperation.

I don’t think anyone heard you, Matilda. Well, I made my appeal…almost 30 posts ago, lol!

 

[CopticChristian]

**Food for thought: Do you know the psychological community was lobbied to remove homosexuality from the list of abnormalities? How can anyone lobby a science? **Should we lobby to the physics community that the Earth is flat? Makes no sense at all.

The proposition: Gay marriage is a matter of equality and therefore, gays should be allowed to attain a marriage license.

1. People are “equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,” For example, we have a natural right to speak, to religion, to assemble etc.
2. People do not have a natural right to a marriage licence. Licenses are given by governments (men) to bestow benefits.
3. The laws concerning marriage licenses and the associated benefits were written to encourage/promote marriage according to society’s Christian beliefs.
4. **Therefore, gay marriage is not about equality. Gay marriage is about promoting the acceptance of the “gay lifestyle”. **
5. People are righteous not to support gay marriage in that promoting this “lifestyle” is contrary to their beliefs.

For example, Catholics are righteous to oppose gay marriage because promoting a “gay lifestyle” is contrary to the mandates of their Church, its Sacred Tradition, and the natural law. **

“if you want to corrupt a culture, first corrupt their language”**

Across,

Here is the gourmet meal for thought…Homosexual Psychiatrists are responsible for removing homosexuality from the DSM and as an appetizer what makes you believe that Psychiatry is science?