Gay Marriage and the Social Issues Surrounding It

[stewstew03]

Oh. I thought it was because when you were gay a great big G didn’t appear permanently on your forehead.

Good. I will take your sarcasm as evidence that you have no other thoughtful response, and can therefore assume that the weakness of the “gay civil rights” argument is not lost on you.

 

[PRmerger]

When Jesus said “Do unto others…” I took Him seriously. I want to be part of my society, I want family and children and freedom. And my belief is meaningless unless I want that for everyone else, too.

And this is very Catholic of you to say, Julia.

 

[Acrossthedesert]

---

This is stunning to me. I would ask how old you are or what cave you were hiding in for the last 50 years, but it would seem rude and break my policy of no personal questions. So, let’s see:

Let’s compare this to the Gay movement with the Civil Rights Movement of the 20th century.

**1) Are gays secure in their homes? **
*Yes, and if not I will personally fight for that right. *
NO! If they are more secure now, as black Americans are more secure now, it’s because we have been fighting this battle for decades. And, it’s way easier to hide gayness from your neighbors than blackness.

They are also not secure on the street. Not from “straight” thugs or bully cops.

Have their homes been attacked? yes Have they been vandalized? yes
.

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

**2) Have gays been denied the right to vote? **
No

I have no idea if some gay person somewhere was turned away from a polling place because they were gay. Probably. But not in wholesale numbers because you usually can’t identify them on sight. However:

Have they been lynched, beaten, tied to fences and clubbed to death?

YES. YES,YES,YES,YES .
.

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

**3) Have gays been restricted on where they can live? **
No.

YES. In the City and County of Denver until sometime in the 1980s, very recently, two unmarried or unrelated in the first degree persons could not purchase a residential property or occupy one as tenants. That’s just one case, there were laws like this all over the country right up to the 80s.

Those are laws, not just people who wouldn’t rent to them. And there were plenty, so, gays in most urban areas ended up having to live in the more blighted areas of town in substandard housing far below what they could afford. Probably those neighborhoods contributed to some of the problems their children had which their nicer suburbanite counterparts didn’t have to contend with.

OTOH, marginal neighborhoods where gays bought homes saw a decrease in crime and a rise in property values as they spent their incomes restoring the homes and landscaping properties.
.

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

4) Have gays been denied access to education?
No.
Yes, when they were identified as gay, or even suspected of it, many boys were ejected from private schools and in particular Catholic schools.

.

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

5) Have gays been denied employment?
No.
I swear, you just made this up as a joke or something. Yes, of course they have, as is seen in court cases they filed over it which finally got the Court to say you cannot discriminate against a person on the basis of their sexual orientation? OF COURSE there were. Gay teachers? Omigosh, tarred and feathered for life. Did you not ever watch Madmen where the art director was fired for being gay? Do you think that was just made up? Then there is the military, you do remember you couldn’t get a job in the military if you were gay?

Where do you think that famous “closet” came from? You think gay folks aren’t still losing jobs for being gay? Or hiding the fact to keep jobs? You think Rock Hudson would have been hired as a movie hunk if anyone knew he was gay? There’s a thread here on CAF where a woman just told me she couldn’t cut her hair too short as a form of penance because people whould think she was a lesbian, which happened in highschool and she was badly harrassed over it.

No discrimination against gays? There hasn’t been anything else.
.

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

You know, if you aren’t old enough to know how much discrimination and violence has been directed at gay people, you sure aren’t old enough to have marched and sat in with us for black Americans, so I think maybe you don’t have a clue what the Civil Rights movement was about. Guess what?
*
It was for social acceptance*. Know how you get that? By passing laws against discrimination so that the people become integrated into the society that marginalized them. Then, familiarity and time cause the hate and fear to dissipate. And anew generation thins the bizarre notions of their parents and grandparents are embarrassing to them.

Some of us are still fighting the same fight for freedom in this country. For everyone. Gay marriage is here to stay, so maybe we should start exploring the topic of the thread: the social issues that surround it, because those are what you will have to deal with.

** Like I said, it is about social acceptance. It’s not about justice nor wanting acceptance as the children of God. Stop the lies… Jesus is the Truth.

You know what’s ironic. You are at liberty, and so are all the people. That is not the question. The question is what will you do with your freedom? Julie Mae, find your calling. Pray for guidance. Say “Veni Sancte Spiritus”**

 

[Acrossthedesert]

Oh. I thought it was because when you were gay a great big G didn’t appear permanently on your forehead.

Julia, take a break from this subject. Go have a coffee. And everyone back off for a day!

Our Father who art in Heaven. Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our traspasses as we forgive those who traspass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Forgive me Lord for hurting Julia Mae in any fashion. Amen.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Moses was God’s Prophet. Mosaic Law is considered the Word of God. Under Mosaic Law there was divorce.

Actually, Scripture is considered the Word of God, the Mosaic Law is not. This set of statutes was given by Moses to the people of Israel. Merely because the Mosaic Law is found in the Old Testament does not mean it was fully sanctioned by God. It was only “allowed” by God. God commanded Moses to draft the list of “statutes and rules” but that does not mean these actually originated from God.

In another related incident, the people of Israel later wanted kings to rule them to be like the neighbouring tribes. God didn’t actively promote the idea, he reluctantly allowed it but, in fact, warned against it.

This passage is from Deuteronomy 4:1-14

1“And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you. … 5See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 6Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the LORD our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? 8And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today? … 13And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and rules, that you might do them in the land that you are going over to possess.

Notice the difference between the commandments that “he [that is God] declared to you” and the statutes and rules that Moses taught. The fact that God commanded Moses to teach rules and ordinances does not mean these in fact came from God. God may have commanded Moses to come up with a set of rules and ordinances to regulate the behaviour of the people in order to help them keep the original ten commandments that the people were having difficulty keeping, but were imperative under the covenant with God. This does not mean the Mosaic Law originated from God, they were stipulations that Moses settled on to specifically prohibit or control behaviours that would infringe upon the ten commandments, given the historical context and external influences that the Jewish people found themselves being negatively influenced by.

Verse 2 is especially telling. "2You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you." The reason Moses is telling the people not to add or take away from the “word” that he is giving them is so that they may better “keep the commandments of the Lord.” The rules and ordinances were given to the people by Moses as a kind of insurance policy to protect the people from venturing too far away from the Ten Commandments and thus put themselves in jeopardy of breaking the covenant with God.

The Mosaic Law was secondary to the ten commandments, which is why it is called the Deuteronomic (second law) code. It is also why Jesus said Moses was the one who permitted divorce under what was implicitly his law.

 

[atheistgirl]

---

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

It isn’t all about gay marriage This is the current hot button topic for most people of Christian faith, but it’s just one more battle that the gay community have to fight, and fight and fight.

Here’s some figures from Topeka from a while back, and this is just one such city in a world full of such cities, towns and villages.

• 16% of respondents reported that they were denied employment because of their sexual
orientation or gender identity
• 11% reported that they were denied a promotion, and 18% reported that they were
overlooked for additional responsibilities at work due to their sexual orientation or gender
identity
• One fifth to one third of respondents reported that they had observed people being
denied employment, denied a promotion, or overlooked for additional responsibilities at
work due to their sexual orientation or gender identity
• 15% of respondents reported that they were fired because of their sexual orientation
or gender identity, and another 24% have observed someone being fired for those
reasons
• 35% had received harassing letters, e-mails, or faxes at work because of their sexual
orientation
• 17% of respondents reported experiencing discrimination buying or renting a home,
and another 20% observed such discrimination
• 11% of respondents reported that they experienced discrimination seeking police
protection, and another 27% observed such discrimination
• 29% of respondents had observed discrimination based on sexual orientation seeking
social or government services. 9% reported experiencing such discrimination
The conclusions of the survey are inescapable: discrimination in employment, housing,
and public accommodation on the basis of sexual orientation continues to be a problem
in the City of Topeka.

thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/TopekaDiscrimination.pdf

Makes it hard to argue there’s no civil rights issues involved here huh

Sarah x

 

[CopticChristian]

It isn’t all about gay marriage This is the current hot button topic for most people of Christian faith, but it’s just one more battle that the gay community have to fight, and fight and fight.

Here’s some figures from Topeka from a while back, and this is just one such city in a world full of such cities, towns and villages.

thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/TopekaDiscrimination.pdf

Makes it hard to argue there’s no civil rights issues involved here huh

Sarah x

Sarah,

If you are born Indian, Black, Chinese, Mexican…you are what you are…you cannot change what you are. I believe and profess that homosexuality is a choice and nothing will change my mind. A person can change their sexual orientation if they truly believe that the world will not accept that behavior. No amount of anything will make me think differently.

Choice in behavior can change. Race cannot change.

 

[atheistgirl]

I believe and profess that homosexuality is a choice and nothing will change my mind.

I know. You’ve said it like a million times. Not even the view of your own Church, that you submit to.

A person can change their sexual orientation if they truly believe that the world will not accept that behavior.

So if I convince you heterosexuality is not acceptable, you can become a homosexual.

That’s really cool.

No amount of anything will make me think differently.

I know. You’ve said. I guess closed minds do have a certain degree of comfort. I personally have a very open mind, which is why, as an atheist, I love dialoguing with people of all religious persuasions.

Choice in behavior can change.

I think it’s really cool you can become a homosexual

Race cannot change.

Well, erm, ok.

Nothing you said even came close to addressing the points I made about the issues being faced by homosexual people as being civil rights issues - employment, marriage, housing, they’re all civil rights issues - but, whatever

Your main point, that you keep wanting to stress, is you can become a homosexual if you just want to.

Well done you.

I think that’s really cool

Sarah x

 

[Patavium]

This one thing a guy did, which has results at variance with a number of other studies, now suddenly gets waved everyone’s face while proclaiming SCIENCE SAYS GAY PARENTS BAD!!!

Sorry, it just doesn’t work like that. You want to start a whole thread just on that study, I’ll go through it and point out the problems. But no one has proven anything at all in any direction. That’s the “scientific fact.”

No, it says a lot about how repressed and closeted gay people were until very recently. When gays started coming out in the last twenty years, they divorced their staright partners and often took their children with them. And if there is instability, like there’s not with heteros, it is certainly attributable to the fact that our culture forced these people into the shadows and compelled them into unnatural ways of living.

There is one study by “one guy” with a large sample vs. many other studies with very small samples.

All these studies use statistical methods that are based on what? The Law of Large Numbers, and the Central Limit Theorem, oh yes… I believe the statistical soundness of the “one guy” is correct .

 

[SgtSchultz]

Here’s some figures from Topeka from a while back, and this is just one such city in a world full of such cities, towns and villages.

The figures you cite are self-reported, self-selected, and anecdotal.

I guess closed minds do have a certain degree of comfort. I personally have a very open mind, which is why, as an atheist, I love dialoguing with people of all religious persuasions.

Should one not “close” their mind once they’ve learned the truth? What good is an open mind if it accepts anything and everything? Could one not say that someone who promotes same sex marriage and/or believes that there is no nurture component involved with the development of same sex attraction also has a closed mind?

 

[CopticChristian]

I know. You’ve said it like a million times. Not even the view of your own Church, that you submit to.

So if I convince you heterosexuality is not acceptable, you can become a homosexual.

That’s really cool.

I know. You’ve said. I guess closed minds do have a certain degree of comfort. I personally have a very open mind, which is why, as an atheist, I love dialoguing with people of all religious persuasions.

I think it’s really cool you can become a homosexual

Well, erm, ok.

Nothing you said even came close to addressing the points I made about the issues being faced by homosexual people as being civil rights issues - employment, marriage, housing, they’re all civil rights issues - but, whatever

Your main point, that you keep wanting to stress, is you can become a homosexual if you just want to.

Well done you.

I think that’s really cool

Sarah x

Sarah,

I am glad you get it. I choose not to be homosexual.

 

[Faithdancer]

Julia,

Since your interest is in Faith building…what Faith are you building here? I cannot make sense of it.

She is hiding her beliefs, or lack thereof for some purpose. Best not to press her on it as you might get a angry PM, lol!

 

[rossum]

IF…pure conjecture leading to imagination and not truth…

No, fact supported by research on twins: springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

Homosexuality is not genetically determined, but it is genetically influenced. The Italian research helps explain why natural selection does not remove that genetic influence from the gene pool.

rossum

 

[markeverett49]

No, it doesn’t. I was addressing an issue of why this is not contra-survival in terms of evolutionary biology. .

But you act as if you have the answer when what you have is highly speculative. (I’m fine with speculation so long as it is offered as such.) If gay men have not been more helpful in raising the offspring of relatives, then the idea that evolution selected for homosexuality in men to provide additional care to the children of relatives falls apart.

You can’t argue that evolution selected for a trait for reason X unless you demonstrate that those bearing the trait are more likely than those without to do X.

 

[Patavium]

She is hiding her beliefs, or lack thereof for some purpose. Best not to press her on it as you might get a angry PM, lol!

Unfortunately, Julia Mae decided to add several of us to her ignore list, because in another thread she claimed expertise in a field, and hid under the digital veil. She assumed we will accept her expertise without proof of it

 

[Julia_Mae]

Then isn’t it funny why it’s all about gay marriage?

What’s “all about gay marriage?” You don’t mean the gay rights movement, by any chance? So, you have no idea about decades of lawsuits to gain equal access to housing, to not be fired from jobs, to get police to stop harassment and take crime against gays seriously? All the exact same issues that blacks had and fought for in the same way?

You really don’t seem to have ever heard of anything concerning all of this until this one issue - this makes you uninformed, it doesn’t erase years of the fight.

Like I said, it is about social acceptance. It’s not about justice nor wanting acceptance as the children of God. Stop the lies… Jesus is the Truth.

It is about social acceptance, as was the black civil rights movement. AND justice AND being accepted as the children of God they are. Stop the lies. Jesus is, indeed, the Truth.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Julia, take a break from this subject. Go have a coffee. And everyone back off for a day!

Our Father who art in Heaven. Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our traspasses as we forgive those who traspass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Forgive me Lord for hurting Julia Mae in any fashion. Amen.

This is an excellent idea, thank you. I’m sorry if I hurt you also. I’ll stop reading with this post. Besides, I think we said everything that could be said at this point, anyway.

 

[CopticChristian]

What’s “all about gay marriage?” You don’t mean the gay rights movement, by any chance? So, you have no idea about decades of lawsuits to gain equal access to housing, to not be fired from jobs, to get police to stop harassment and take crime against gays seriously? All the exact same issues that blacks had and fought for in the same way?

You really don’t seem to have ever heard of anything concerning all of this until this one issue - this makes you uninformed, it doesn’t erase years of the fight.

It is about social acceptance, as was the black civil rights movement. AND justice AND being accepted as the children of God they are. Stop the lies. Jesus is, indeed, the Truth.

Julia,

No it is not about acceptance,

I was born black and I want to be treated like everyone else, because this country says that all men are created equal.

I was born whatever and I choose to behave a certain way and I want you to believe that this is a civil rights issue.

True, true and unrelated

Give up selling something that isn’t.

ps Jesus and the Church accepts the homosexual the way they are but not the way they behave.

 

[fix]

Give up selling something that isn’t.

amen

 

[Patavium]

Julia,

No it is not about acceptance,

I was born black and I want to be treated like everyone else, because this country says that all men are created equal.

I was born whatever and I choose to behave a certain way and I want you to believe that this is a civil rights issue.

True, true and unrelated

Give up selling something that isn’t.

What are we going to hear next? the Pedophile civil rights movement?

Pedophiles also claim that they are born that way.