Gay Marriage: case against!

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There is one problem with this Natural law when discussing with an athiest or an agnostic. That is Natural law is a “theory” the church uses based on its faith in a God of order, not objectivity in physical world.
Well, it’s not a theory that male-female parts fit together, whereas male-male or female-female parts do not. Nothing theoretical about that. It’s like an electrical supply house shipping a contractor a supply consisting of all ‘male’ electrical connections, saying, ‘look, it’s all the same, this will work just as well as the usual way.’
 
When you reduce the argument to parts you will fail miserably. If you do that you can not defend a woman who has hysterectomy getting married because she does not have the parts, which I do not think is your goal.

Second I can argue the wiring part from another point of view. When I wire a house I always match the same wires. I do not hook up a ground to a live wire or vice versa in that context a difference does not allow for a working system.
So if a man who is gay marries a woman it will not work, in that context it will be like hooking up a ground to a live wire.

Also I can argue that male parts do work together. For instance …"the receiver” does receive stimulus from “the giver” in the homosexual act. The prostate of the receiver is stimulated by the homosexual act while the giver is stimulated in the normal context, which leads to both reaching climax, and they are technically physically unified, and they say they never feel closer. (I know three long term closed relationship couples and am way to curious, I thought it hurt one and wondered why 😊 which is why I know too much) Now this gland is not stimulated by the normal heterosexual activity. Now if you say that everything has a function and a purpose that only works one way, this should not work. I think again it has to do with context.

The only way you can win this argument is to first convert them to your belief system instead of enforcing it on them. You cant win this argument in a secular way.
 
When you reduce the argument to parts you will fail miserably. If you do that you can not defend a woman who has hysterectomy getting married because she does not have the parts, which I do not think is your goal.
A woman who has had a hysterectomy is still capable of having marital intercourse; a hysterectomy is not an impediment to marriage.

The rest of your post amounts to saying that unnatural sexual relations are possible, and consequently are equally as natural as normal sexual relations. That is an argument that I don’t think would have been made at any time before latter part of the 20th century. At least we can say that homosexual intercourse is not natural from the standpoint that no procreation will result. And the sex organs are at least procreative by nature. I would say that is their intended purpose, except that in recent years, reference to “purpose” in nature seems to be disregarded.
 
A woman who has had a hysterectomy is still capable of having marital intercourse; a hysterectomy is not an impediment to marriage.

The rest of your post amounts to saying that unnatural sexual relations are possible, and consequently are equally as natural as normal sexual relations. That is an argument that I don’t think would have been made at any time before latter part of the 20th century. At least we can say that homosexual intercourse is not natural from the standpoint that no procreation will result. And the sex organs are at least procreative by nature. I would say that is their intended purpose, except that in recent years, reference to “purpose” in nature seems to be disregarded.
No procreation will result from a man having sex with a woman with hysterectomy.
Is that natural?
Why?
A person is infertile.
Do you still consider sex unnatural for them? What funtion does it serve?
NFP a program approved by the church allows for sex with excluding the desire for children. What purpose does it serve?

By your answer, what ever it is will support that homosexual sex could be valid and natural. Because you are saying it has more than one purpose. That purpose is filled by the homosexaul action. Because procreation is not filled by any of those. If you argue soley for procreation you have to keep those standards across the board or you are a hypocrit.

Also I agree with you saying in an earlier time period that no one would make these arguement in the West and parts of the East. Why was that? The reason I believe believe to be true is that most people believed in Christian God. However if I go to other cultures like the Japanese or even back in time to the pagan west arguements have been made in support of xy/xy relationships.

My major point of this is the need for conversion. Natural law is not a supporting secular or God free idea to your concept of Marriage. There is no secular, objective logic that can support our concept of Marriage either because it is a mystery in fact. This is why so many countires in the west are changing their ideas about it because to them it is a contract between two equals that say they love each other and want to support eachother an idea supported by secular ideas or ideals. It does not involve God which in a secular state I can understand. You want this idea protected than work for conversion.
 
No procreation will result from a man having sex with a woman with hysterectomy. Is that natural? Why?
The action is natural, yes, even though its natural end will not be achieved. The natural end of marital relations—childbirth—does not, and cannot occur with every act of marital relations, due as you note, to reasons of infertility or other factors (including pregnancy.)
Also I agree with you saying in an earlier time period that no one would make these arguement in the West and parts of the East. Why was that? The reason I believe believe to be true is that most people believed in Christian God.
In other words, we lived in Western Civilization. Western civilization has been systematically destroyed and all but outlawed among educational institutions within the last 40 years.

You are likely correct that a person who does not accept natural law will have no reason to accept heterosexuality as normative. If the purpose of sex is merely to give pleasure, then anything which achieves that end is allowable, and there should be no laws prohibiting any kind of sexual relations whatsoever.

Still, not all types of sexual relations have the effect of advancing society and preserving civilization. If everyone practiced contraceptive sex or homosexual relations only, society would die out within a generation. There is a great variety of what we might call NON-normative sex—everything from gay sex to bestiality to pederasty to incest to group sex.

What kind of society will we have if all these are treated as normal?

There are, I think, many European countries which have adopted some form of gay sex as normative, whether civil unions or marriage. Perhaps they have made a conscious choice that they just cannot say what marriage is for. Many if not most of these countries are in a demographic decline, and will likely become majority Islamic countries within a few generations. This is not a thread about the desirability of a country having an Islamic culture; but we can certainly say that it is not the same as a western culture.

Western civilization seems to be on a demographic suicide mission. Gay unions will not be the final nail in its coffin; they will only help the hearse along to the gravesite.
 
You just saying it is natural and unnatural does not make it natural and unnatural. You have to back it up with using an objective philosophy, you are still using natural law.

I did not say the sole purpose is sex gratification Im saying it has multiple purposes and that do not have to be fullfilled in every act and every circumstance. Like A woman who is infertile can never have children would you say the sole purpose of the act is gratification for her? If her husband is fertile, Is he not wasting his fertility which could be used to advance society as you seem to believe. From that same viewpoint is I can argue a homosexual is a special case or circumstance that renders the act “natural”.

Also no one ever explained to me how gay marriage is going to stop people from breeding. If you are gay you are not going to have children anyways.😛 Also you have to prove that having children is an absolute good.(goodluck with that too)

One last thing I hate to break this to everyone here, civilizations collapse. It is just the way it is. There is a wonderful quote from I claudius that was when I realized the truth of this and I am paraphrasing a little:
Code:
     "If the republic actually worked it would still be here."
The republic failed and so will western civilization not because of gay marriage, but because the system did not work. Just like the muslims will fail, and the chinese and the Indians It is part of the cycle of civilizations. This to goes for Marriage as we understand it. It is failing not, because it worked but because it did not work. It may rise again in the next golden age with remnants of what we think of it now, or in the past or what we are begging to define it as now. Maybe we will even get it right. :o

Even the church has developed the concept from domination of woman and sole purpose being child bearing to equality and two fold purpose of marriage just this century. So I do not think it is purely a secular thing happening. Nothing is stable in this world.
 
One last thing I hate to break this to everyone here, civilizations collapse.
Ah yes, civilizations do collapse. Not every civilization which collapses has its own adherents working actively to ensure its collapse though, as seems to be the case with western civilization today.

And by western civilization, I have in mind the ultimately Christian culture which had its origins in Judaism, drew from Greek and Roman cultures, became widely Christian with the advent of Christ, preserved the ideas of pre-western cultures after the fall of the Roman empire, and re-flourished as a Christian culture during the Age of Faith, and which developed the idea of the university during the medieval era. Now, those who run the universities actively seek to undermine that entire heritage. [It’s rather like a newborn infant saying, “I reject the whole concept of embryogenesis! I can be whatever I want! It’s a new age, and I am not tied to my past!”]

The institution of marriage has existed in most cultures throughout most of history. I can’t think of any particular culture offhand throughout the millennia which thought it advisable to grant homosexual relations the same status as marriage. But if we want to be the groundbreakers here, fine. I’m old enough that I won’t have to live with the results overly long.
 
You just saying it is natural and unnatural does not make it natural and unnatural. You have to back it up with using an objective philosophy, you are still using natural law.

I did not say the sole purpose is sex gratification Im saying it has multiple purposes and that do not have to be fullfilled in every act and every circumstance. Like A woman who is infertile can never have children would you say the sole purpose of the act is gratification for her? If her husband is fertile, Is he not wasting his fertility which could be used to advance society as you seem to believe. From that same viewpoint is I can argue a homosexual is a special case or circumstance that renders the act “natural”.

Also no one ever explained to me how gay marriage is going to stop people from breeding. If you are gay you are not going to have children anyways.😛 Also you have to prove that having children is an absolute good.(goodluck with that too)

One last thing I hate to break this to everyone here, civilizations collapse. It is just the way it is. There is a wonderful quote from I claudius that was when I realized the truth of this and I am paraphrasing a little:
Code:
     "If the republic actually worked it would still be here."
The republic failed and so will western civilization not because of gay marriage, but because the system did not work. Just like the muslims will fail, and the chinese and the Indians It is part of the cycle of civilizations. This to goes for Marriage as we understand it. It is failing not, because it worked but because it did not work. It may rise again in the next golden age with remnants of what we think of it now, or in the past or what we are begging to define it as now. Maybe we will even get it right. :o

Even the church has developed the concept from domination of woman and sole purpose being child bearing to equality and two fold purpose of marriage just this century. So I do not think it is purely a secular thing happening. Nothing is stable in this world.
I definetly agree with you that people won’t be convinced by natural or theological laws either. However, Nor will philosophy nor religion will convince them because they are doing what they feel in their heart is real and right. Many people even believe in God and claim they are Christians and they say well the church is wrong with their views.
I am not going to make any argument against those claims because they unfortunately amount to nothing. However, I will make my claim about the importance of a Father/Mother role that is absent in homosexuality/lesbianism. Of course you can make the claim that even heterosexual families can have dysfunctional households. But why? The rhetorical question is that one or both of the parties dose not meet the needs for the child. Unfortunately, you have a degradation of how a family is supposed to operate. In scientific studies/ psychological studies have proven that a dysfunctional family will have dire consequences if not checked. Look at Super Nanny for example; As you watch her shows the majority of the issues obviously stem from the parents that is a plaitude. But the extent and the damage that is caused is horrific in the sense that even at the age of five, the child is already rebelling.
Homosexuality is the same way. Now you can also create an exception of the rule. My parents were both gay and I am married with a woman and I turned out okay didn’t I. In a psychological sense this individual has discerned that homosexuality is not correct and should not be practiced. Even if he has no problem with homosexuality why become heterosexual?Under the pretenses that the individual has made in his own mind or man.
Concerning the possible outcome where the adopted child grows up and marries a man just like his own parents. This is called brainwashing because he is convinced this is how to live a life to its fullest. Consider Adolf Hitler where he inconceivably deluded the minds of others and convinced that the slater 5 million + Jews is justifiable because it was their fault. And not to mention destroying books while he implanted his agenda into their minds.
This same brainwashing can occur in our society as well. Given enough info and examples and hearing it enough we will inexplicably believe it. Homosexuality is not a new phenomena nor is any idea as such. On the contrary, these attitudes have been with us for a long time. The reason why people are “gay” is even another conversation in of itself. Which will not be discussed here.
The degradation of a any society starts in the home level. If we aren’t feed the proper instruction by our parents their are great consequences that society in itself faces. Just 50 years ago it was considered evil in society to get pregnant at the age of 15-16 years old. Nowadays, it is not so bad anymore. A lot of folks will say well I am glad I got pregnant then because now I will be only 40 when they move out! It is becoming more acceptable to society.
In closing, homosexuality is damaging to any society because it degrades our minds into thinking that two males/ females can marry and probably would want to adopt and thus creating an ideology that affects greatly at our youth. If hereto sexuality you claim failed we need to ask ourselves why? Why did our marriage fail. If our youth are rebelling to our parents and even society why?
 
Ah yes, civilizations do collapse. Not every civilization which collapses has its own adherents working actively to ensure its collapse though, as seems to be the case with western civilization today.
Lets take your idea back to the cusp of the acceptance of embryogenesis.
 
I have an idea.

If this is really you’re …
No, I’m not the Author to this rule.

If there be a law that kidnapping young girls is a crime, I can infer that this criminal who now wishes a ceremony to formalize his act of intiatiation of his concubines into forced sexual servitude would be wrong as well.

And, it does apply to all others sins as well.
We have an ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE of the constitution that PROTECTS me and *my *future gay household from religious laws.
Compounding again. The establishment of civil codes, has decreed by Authority is to find it’s foundational base on Devine principles. Sometimes we find society flaunting God’s base rules to establish their own for the purpose of establishing a means to end. It is fortunate in these cases that God graces individual citizens the ability to know better, set an example, and be expected to voice disapproval in His behalf.

AndyF
 
Lets take your idea back to the cusp of the acceptance of embryogenesis.

Many people rejected the idea of embryogensis in the beginning. It went againt history and natural law, our concept of semen (seed) and the womens role as a field which is so clearly evident or “natural”. Equal representaion of the spouse went againt the order established by God that Man was the head and the origin and woman as only the reciepient. This would in turn destroy our concept of the Church and Christ. Would you say that is has also lead to the collapse of western civilization. If it has, does it deny that it is any less true?
I guess I’m not sure what you are getting at here. Increased knowledge of biology does not lead to civilizational collapse. Increased knowledge of embryology enhanced the status of an embryo by showing it to be a human being from the beginning.

I was referring more to academics and academic establishments which actually make the overthrow of western civilization part of the new orthodoxy. (Back in the 60’s there used to be radicals chanting “hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go!” which I thought was just silly at the time, since it was western civ which made their universities possible, but they’ve had a large degree of success at the deconstruction endeavor.)
 
www-tech.mit.edu/V124/N5/kolasinski.5c.html

The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage

Adam Kolasinski
The debate over whether the state ought to recognize gay marriages has thus far focused on the issue as one of civil rights. Such a treatment is erroneous because state recognition of marriage is not a universal right. States regulate marriage in many ways besides denying men the right to marry men, and women the right to marry women. Roughly half of all states prohibit first cousins from marrying, and all prohibit marriage of closer blood relatives, even if the individuals being married are sterile. In all states, it is illegal to attempt to marry more than one person, or even to pass off more than one person as one’s spouse. Some states restrict the marriage of people suffering from syphilis or other venereal diseases. Homosexuals, therefore, are not the only people to be denied the right to marry the person of their choosing.

I do not claim that all of these other types of couples restricted from marrying are equivalent to homosexual couples. I only bring them up to illustrate that marriage is heavily regulated, and for good reason. When a state recognizes a marriage, it bestows upon the couple certain benefits which are costly to both the state and other individuals. Collecting a deceased spouse’s social security, claiming an extra tax exemption for a spouse, and having the right to be covered under a spouse’s health insurance policy are just a few examples of the costly benefits associated with marriage. In a sense, a married couple receives a subsidy. Why? Because a marriage between two unrelated heterosexuals is likely to result in a family with children, and propagation of society is a compelling state interest. For this reason, states have, in varying degrees, restricted from marriage couples unlikely to produce children.

Granted, these restrictions are not absolute. A small minority of married couples are infertile. However, excluding sterile couples from marriage, in all but the most obvious cases such as those of blood relatives, would be costly. Few people who are sterile know it, and fertility tests are too expensive and burdensome to mandate. One might argue that the exclusion of blood relatives from marriage is only necessary to prevent the conception of genetically defective children, but blood relatives cannot marry even if they undergo sterilization. Some couples who marry plan not to have children, but without mind-reading technology, excluding them is impossible. Elderly couples can marry, but such cases are so rare that it is simply not worth the effort to restrict them. The marriage laws, therefore, ensure, albeit imperfectly, that the vast majority of couples who do get the benefits of marriage are those who bear children.

Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason for the state to grant them the costly benefits of marriage, unless they serve some other state interest. The burden of proof, therefore, is on the advocates of gay marriage to show what state interest these marriages serve. Thus far, this burden has not been met.

One may argue that lesbians are capable of procreating via artificial insemination, so the state does have an interest in recognizing lesbian marriages, but a lesbian’s sexual relationship, committed or not, has no bearing on her ability to reproduce. Perhaps it may serve a state interest to recognize gay marriages to make it easier for gay couples to adopt. However, there is ample evidence (see, for example, David Popenoe’s Life Without Father) that children need both a male and female parent for proper development. Unfortunately, small sample sizes and other methodological problems make it impossible to draw conclusions from studies that directly examine the effects of gay parenting. However, the empirically verified common wisdom about the importance of a mother and father in a child’s development should give advocates of gay adoption pause. The differences between men and women extend beyond anatomy, so it is essential for a child to be nurtured by parents of both sexes if a child is to learn to function in a society made up of both sexes. Is it wise to have a social policy that encourages family arrangements that deny children such essentials? Gays are not necessarily bad parents, nor will they necessarily make their children gay, but they cannot provide a set of parents that includes both a male and a female.

Some have compared the prohibition of homosexual marriage to the prohibition of interracial marriage. This analogy fails because fertility does not depend on race, making race irrelevant to the state’s interest in marriage. By contrast, homosexuality is highly relevant because it precludes procreation.

Some argue that homosexual marriages serve a state interest because they enable gays to live in committed relationships. However, there is nothing stopping homosexuals from living in such relationships today. Advocates of gay marriage claim gay couples need marriage in order to have hospital visitation and inheritance rights, but they can easily obtain these rights by writing a living will and having each partner designate the other as trustee and heir. There is nothing stopping gay couples from signing a joint lease or owning a house jointly, as many single straight people do with roommates. The only benefits of marriage from which homosexual couples are restricted are those that are costly to the state and society.

Some argue that the link between marriage and procreation is not as strong as it once was, and they are correct. Until recently, the primary purpose of marriage, in every society around the world, has been procreation. In the 20th century, Western societies have downplayed the procreative aspect of marriage, much to our detriment. As a result, the happiness of the parties to the marriage, rather than the good of the children or the social order, has become its primary end, with disastrous consequences. When married persons care more about themselves than their responsibilities to their children and society, they become more willing to abandon these responsibilities, leading to broken homes, a plummeting birthrate, and countless other social pathologies that have become rampant over the last 40 years. Homosexual marriage is not the cause for any of these pathologies, but it will exacerbate them, as the granting of marital benefits to a category of sexual relationships that are necessarily sterile can only widen the separation between marriage and procreation.

The biggest danger homosexual civil marriage presents is the enshrining into law the notion that sexual love, regardless of its fecundity, is the sole criterion for marriage. If the state must recognize a marriage of two men simply because they love one another, upon what basis can it deny marital recognition to a group of two men and three women, for example, or a sterile brother and sister who claim to love each other? Homosexual activists protest that they only want all couples treated equally. But why is sexual love between two people more worthy of state sanction than love between three, or five? When the purpose of marriage is procreation, the answer is obvious. If sexual love becomes the primary purpose, the restriction of marriage to couples loses its logical basis, leading to marital chaos.

Adam Kolasinski is a doctoral student in financial economics.
 
There is one problem with this Natural law when discussing with an athiest or an agnostic. That is Natural law is a “theory” the church uses based on its faith in a God of order, not objectivity in physical world. Natural law has at its core the belief that God wrote these laws on the human heart and that belief should be seen in all societeis. Many times however not all societes share these views we declare natural and history shows that many times even our most basic premises of natural law are absent, which weakens this view to outsiders even more. If you do not believe in God, Natural law is not going to be be able to persuade you. To convince them you have to work in a philosophy system void of God. I can not find a truly objective philosophy that does this, and that is why Im not sure that it is right, in a country that is not a theocracy, to enforce a law based on a theological construct.
Polaris, I welcome your response to this comment on natural law and gay marriage. Here goes !!

My understanding of all human and animal behavior is that of preservation of life. In other words, in normal situations animals and humans don’t kill themselves and act to preserve their lives, such as the “fight or flight” senario. Preservation of one’s own life is a natural behavior. Gay marriage has it’s end as the end of life. There is no procreation and no continuing life. On a world scale this would be the end of human existence. Natural law says we work towards continuing life. Therefore, gay marriage works against natural law and it is not compatible with it.

On another quote, the Church does not discount reason but upholds it. It is the tool useful in discovering God when the Gospel has not been preached to you (a law written into their hearts).

mdcpensive1
 
My understanding of all human and animal behavior is that of preservation of life. In other words, in normal situations animals and humans don’t kill themselves and act to preserve their lives, such as the “fight or flight” senario. Preservation of one’s own life is a natural behavior. Gay marriage has it’s end as the end of life. There is no procreation and no continuing life. On a world scale this would be the end of human existence. Natural law says we work towards continuing life. Therefore, gay marriage works against natural law and it is not compatible with it.
mdcpensive1
But what about infertile couples? There is also no procreation and no continuing life.

I’m stuggling to defend the Church’s teaching on homosexual unions, but every time an antagonist brings up the argument of infertile couples I think, “Yeah! What about that?? Certainly the Church does not condemn marital relations between couples that are unable to procreate (because of menopause, disease, surgery, etc.).”
 
But what about infertile couples? There is also no procreation and no continuing life.
I’m stuggling to defend the Church’s teaching on homosexual unions, but every time an antagonist brings up the argument of infertile couples I think, “Yeah! What about that?? Certainly the Church does not condemn marital relations between couples that are unable to procreate (because of menopause, disease, surgery, etc.).”
I don’t see the point you or someone else is making. Infertile couples don’t choose to be infertile. It can be something that happens after marriage like from an accident, from sickness or something of that nature. Infertility can be a burden to carry between a man and a woman who really want a family.

Christ gave us the example. He is the spouse of the Church and the Church is His spouse. In the Old Testament when Israel was unfaithful He called them a prostitute (through the prophets). Our relationship with God is one of a marital covenant as seen through all of salvation history.

Anyway, an infertile couple must be open to having children even though they cannot at the time. There is always the possiblity of medical breakthroughs etc. They may have the opportunity to adopt or something like that in the future. A homosexual couple cannot be open to having a family because they cannot naturally have one. The relationship is just unnatural. An infertile couple is not unnatural but unusual in a natural setting.

Hope this helps, mdcpensive1
 
Question: If you are arguing with a person in society. Let’s say this person doesnt believe in any religion and says, “Hey I am not gay, but if they want to get married I dont care. Let them. Why do you have a problem with two men or two women getting married?”

Please respond. Thank you.
So what you are basically saying is that you can’t think of one good reason yourself, and you need other people to do your thinking for you.
 
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