Gay marriage gets me hot under the collar

[JLCecilia]

I need to maybe read a good book on how to give the Catholic response on this subject, much more, how to do it charitably, so if anyone can recommend a title, please let me know.

Mind you, I didn’t have the occaion to discuss this issue, but this was brought up twice this week and I sat and stewed privately against the two family members who mentioned it, for which I feel guilty for my anger verging on hatred, I would say.

The first was a FB post by a SIL quoting Pink who says she longs for the day when we no longer call gay marriage ‘gay marriage,’ it’s just called marriage. K, so I want to remove SIL from my newsfeed. Then DH played a music video for me b/c he really likes this new artist and of course the subject was on gay marriage. DH says ‘I agree w/ the message.’ I think the clincher for DH was the line where the rapper says something to the effect of ‘you can’t just ‘religion’ away who a person is.’ Basically calling Christians hypocrites and putting forth the idea that the Bible/Jesus somehow would condone this. DH considers me a fanatic, so I felt a little slammed, but I just let it go.

I knew for one thing that he really wasn’t interested in a discussion, he just wanted to show me a cool video. But I was hot under the collar anyway and I would not have been able to talk about it charitably, which, would only justify his position that I’m not a real Christian b/c look at the anger/hatred the subject stirs in me. Just proof of the hypocrasy of my religious beliefs.

Oh, God help me w/ my temper and pride. To tell you the truth, I’m not sure I would have been able to reasonably defend my position and accurately display the Church’s teaching which INCLUDES love and mercy for those w/ same-sex attraction.

 

[90Domer]

If you check out the National Organization for Marriage website, they have nice resource material and good talking points. I agree with you in that I feel we are getting bombarded by it from all directions. I have seen several commercials that have implied the goodness of SSM as well. We mostly keep the TV off.

 

[Rocks_91]

What gets me hot under the collar are when people indulge in ‘heterosexual attraction’ thinking it’s natural, when there is no such thing as natural non-sinful attraction outside of marriage, only temptation. People in the Biblical days did not get married on the basis of this ‘sexual attraction’, e.g. the apostle’s words about keeping your fiance a virgin, etc.

Also, people sin. Adultery of the heart is just as bad as rape in God’s eyes, because you do not have a person’s consent either way. Both send you to hell. Maybe we should think about that before judging other people’s sins.

 

[_Abyssinia]

What Is Marriage? Man and Woman: A Defense by Sherif Girgis, Ryan T Anderson and Robert P George does not use religious arguments

 

[3DOCTORS]

JLCecelia, I can so relate. The thing that upsets me is that the issue is like the huge “elephant in the living room” that makes normal interaction so uncomfortable and impossible. I have had gay friends since my college days - not a whole bunch, but one or two at a time. And sometimes I’m tempted to feel resentful toward gay people now, wishing that “don’t ask, don’t tell” would’ve been enough for them.

I understand that they feel it is not enough, that they don’t want to have to hide. I can even feel a certain empathy for that, since in their understanding they feel like a discriminated-against minority - and since there have been genuine hate crimes and bullying. However, I resent being lumped in with the kind of people who do the hate crimes and the bullying, because I’m not like that! :nope:

The whole business has me twisted up. I don’t want to have resentful feelings toward anyone. Nor do I engage in flame wars on Facebook. I have to just hide the posts from the gay people and the sympathizers so as not to be tempted to respond in a snarky manner. That’s all I can do for now.

 

[JLCecilia]

Yeah, I’m not one to respond on FB. I just don’t think that’s the outlet for it. The thing that really sticks out to me is how both SIL and DH ‘say’ they support the idea, but yet, do either of them even KNOW anybody w/ SSA? And what would your response be if YOUR child told you one day that they had SSA or were going to enter into a SSM? Would you REALLY be so supportive? It’s fine to passively support it so long as it doesn’t affect you. I think it’s really just indifference. For DH, I just think he really needs to consider how he expresses his attitude on the matter to our children b/c HE just might end up playing the hypocrite if he SAYS he supports it till it’s in his lap and he really has to LIVE that idea.

 

[JLCecilia]

BTW, Abyssinia, thanks for the resource, I will have to scope this out.

 

[mab23]

to find a charitable response learn about the History of marriage especially in the United states

it has nothing to do with two people loving eachother (LEGALLY)

which is a big argument of same sex marriage supporters about how two people love eachother and they should be able to get married , thats an emotional argument and is unsound because it gives the premise that marriage is solely about two people that love eachother

Marriage is a financially incentive that we adopted from England to keep children united with there parents because Children do best with both their biological mothers and fathers

it is also orientated towards procreation whether that procreation happens or not

and same sex couples cannot procreate

also so called same sex marriage will infringe on already recognized religious liberties and lawsuits have already been filed

so called same sex marriage is not about equality it is about forcing the gay agenda and having the Government demand approval of this lifestyle

if it were about equal rights then you would see same sex civil unions being fought for the same federal benefits and married couples (which would most likely have much easier time passing) but NO they want to redefine marriage to include them and tat is not right

you can read the booklet online at this link - I suggest you do

catholic.com/documents/gay-marriage

 

[3DOCTORS]

Yeah, I’m not one to respond on FB. I just don’t think that’s the outlet for it. The thing that really sticks out to me is how both SIL and DH ‘say’ they support the idea, but yet, do either of them even KNOW anybody w/ SSA? And what would your response be if YOUR child told you one day that they had SSA or were going to enter into a SSM? Would you REALLY be so supportive? It’s fine to passively support it so long as it doesn’t affect you. I think it’s really just indifference. For DH, I just think he really needs to consider how he expresses his attitude on the matter to our children b/c HE just might end up playing the hypocrite if he SAYS he supports it till it’s in his lap and he really has to LIVE that idea.

Here is an old thread that I posted last year, for your perusal - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=645336&highlight=cool+factor+gay I think sometimes people do feel it’s the cool thing, the politically correct thing, to talk in favor of gay lifestyle and unions these days, because the alternative, well, brands you as uncool or even a “hater.”

 

[faithtrekker]

I don’t have anything to say to the marriage issue except that I’m on board with the Church about it… I do want to respond to the OP’s anger by saying that I understand… I live with my best friend who grew up with the same faith background as me. In the last decade or so, she’s decided to embrace homosexuality & regularly tells me I’m narrow minded, that God loves EVERYone & wants them to be happy… or my favorite is “this is how God created me”… Anyway, she has been celibate for years, but now brings her new girlfriend (a new-agey Buddhist) around regularly. She doesn’t bat an eye when discussing issues of homosexuality/gay “marriage” & hopes to be “married” someday. Honestly, I’ve been seethingly angry about it for months. I showed my fangs a few times & regretted it b/c I too fear looking like a hypocrite. How am I supposed to love someone so blatantly thumbing their nose at God- especially if they consider themselves a Christian too?! It becomes a battle I can’t seem to win. I can definitely say that anger isn’t the way to deal with it… And its REALLY hard to remember that. I have to check myself every day. I began to pray… I asked for the intercession of saints I knew that struggled with anger (St. Francis de Sales!). I went to confession. The priest told me to go to adoration often. It helped for sure, to get my eyes off my offense…but I still feel angry every now & then. What to do? Keep your eyes on God (like Jesus, Who did only what He saw the Father doing)… I even began having dreams that I told the GF I loved her (as opposed to the hate I had been feeling) & we’re actually slowly becoming friends now. None of us still see eye to eye, but God has the reigns, not me… :newidea:

 

[mountee]

My feelings are quite similar to you JLCecilia, we even share like minded DH’s. over the past few years I have had some old friends from my Catholic college “come out” as gay after they ended their heterosexual marriages that included children. I have a few friends who have lost their brothers to AIDS acquired during gay relationships. One human being to another, faith having nothing to do with the feelings, I find it difficult not to feel almost like saying I don’t care what you do it’s your business. But, then I bring myself back to the reality that I am Catholic and I do care. I have a set of Truths that lead and guide my daily living and according to these Truths it is not OK. If I am not careful this liberal, secular society will drag me down with it. I have to stay on top of these inclinations to allow something to be OK that is not.

 

[JLCecilia]

Faithtrekker, I would honestly have to say it’s just time to move out. To me, your dreams sound like spiritual attacks and I don’t think you’re required to submit yourself to a knowingly conflictual situation on a DAILY basis (from the sounds of it). How long will it be before your roommate asks her GF to move in? I’m not sure you have to live under the same roof to remain in her life as a Christian example, obviously the proximity and frequency of your witness hasn’t made a difference to her thus far, it would be no less if you remained friends without living together. Perhaps the distance would permit you some relief from the constant battering so you COULD be a better Christian witness to her when you DID visit. Remaining roomies just sounds like a near occasion of sin (if only toward anger).

 

[JLCecilia]

DH really could have just kept that little thought to himself “Well, I agree w/ the message . . .” I just walk away thinking, why am I still having children with a man I already know to be anti-religion? On a day-to-day basis I can almost forget about the enormous gap between us, but when he says little things like this it’s like re-opening a wound that really may never heal without his conversion (in my thinking).

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

What gets me hot under the collar are when people indulge in ‘heterosexual attraction’ thinking it’s natural, when there is no such thing as natural non-sinful attraction outside of marriage, only temptation. People in the Biblical days did not get married on the basis of this ‘sexual attraction’, e.g. the apostle’s words about keeping your fiance a virgin, etc.

Wait, even if the marriage is arranged and the couple never meets each other before their wedding day (which is dangerous, mind you, but still…)

You’re telling me that people are supposed to get married and then flip a switch and become attracted to each other all of the sudden?

 

[NeedImprovement]

What Is Marriage? Man and Woman: A Defense by Sherif Girgis, Ryan T Anderson and Robert P George does not use religious arguments

Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone also advises that theological arguments would be “playing into” the gay militants’ hands. From the Catholic Herald interview conducted by journalist Mary O’regan All our detractors can do is call us names

I tell him that I’m searching for good theological answers against gay marriage, but he corrects this notion by saying: “If you use theology, you will play into their hands and they will say you use religion to control people. Marriage isn’t primarily in theology; marriage is in nature. Theology builds on the natural institution, giving us a deeper mystical and supernatural sense of its meaning.”

 

[Captain_America]

The thing that really gets me angry is how much propaganda and deception and campaign funds have really worked together to snowball the American public.

It leaves me cynical, even nihilistic: with enough money and bs PR, you can rule the world, eh?

 

[JLCecilia]

Sexual attraction waxes and wanes even in the best conditions. While PHYSICAL attraction is certainly important, SEXUAL attraction shouldn’t be the basis of a relationship, I think that’s all Rocks_91 meant. Correct me if I’m mistaken.

Trust me, as a revert whose choice of spouse was made at time when I was non-practicing and we were living together before marriage, I can tell you that ‘sexual’ attraction is not a foundation for a healthy marriage. I know others may have a legitimately different experience from my own, but I believe that’s the exception, not the rule.

 

[NeedImprovement]

. . .
Oh, God help me w/ my temper and pride. To tell you the truth, I’m not sure I would have been able to reasonably defend my position and accurately display the Church’s teaching which INCLUDES love and mercy for those w/ same-sex attraction.

The very first thing we have to do is to put things back into terms which don’t obscure the truth. The way the issue is currently presented is the result of the crafty sophistry of the homosexual lobby and the gay militants applying a systematic concerted effort to tyrannize anyone who stands in their path. This is done largely through the media and through pressure exerted on certain spineless politicians and corrupt (or at the least myopic) judges. The springboard used to launch the lunacy is often human rights commissions or tribunals.

The weird thing is that a lot of it is an illusion. Not all that many homosexual people actually think the idea of equating homosexual unions with marriage is a good thing. . . But some of them become intimidated by the militants are afraid to talk. Others aren’t ; a good example would be La Trobe University Professor Dennis Altman who is a gay rights pioneer. His words, quoted from the Herald Sun article Gays Don’t Wan’t Marriage :

Most of us would agree with gay rights pioneer Professor Dennis Altman, who recently criticized a few activists’ fixation on “gay marriage” and described the whole push as "self-indulgent cr"**.

(that last word rhymes with “wrap”).

Fast forward where today this minute elite gang have infiltrated the minds of children in schools - children as young as the age of 5 - well before sexual maturity can even be a lived reality to them they are being indoctrinated with the homosexual agenda - against their parents’ wishes and commonly without their parents’ knowledge. Even the UN has gotten its nose dirty in this regard.

To take in all the pertinent information in order to understand the manipulation that goes on against someone who tries to defend marriage and the family against the homosexual agenda , more than one sitting is necessary.

The best place to start is with a good definition of homosexuality. Father John Hardon, S.J. in his Modern Catholic Dictionary provides us with just what the doctor ordered :

HOMOSEXUALITY.
In general, some form of sexual relationship among members of the same sex. From a moral standpoint, three levels are to be distinguished: tendency, attraction, and activity. Homosexual tendencies in any person are within the normal range of human nature, whose fallen condition includes every conceivable kind of impulse that with sincere effort and divine grace can be controlled. Sexual attraction for members of the same sex may be partly due to the peculiar make-up of certain individuals or, more often, the result of indiscretion or seduction and presents a graver problem; yet this, too, is not by itself sinful and may in fact be an occasion for great supernatural merit. When the condition is pathological, it requires therapy. Active homosexuality is morally indefensible and has been many times forbidden in revelation and the teaching of the Church. The most extensive declaration on the subject was by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, approved by Pope Paul VI on November 7, 1975.

(@JLCecilia ): Being able to differentiate between the 3 different levels makes the thinking a lot clearer . As you see from Fr. Hardon’s definition , it isn’t necessarily same-sex attraction which is morally reprehensible/indefensible, but active homosexuality . . . not that different from premarital sex in this respect.

Before attempting debate we would be well advised of our need to understand precisely how big the homosexual propaganda machine is, and what kind of garbage it spews. Dr. Scott Lively’s entire book Redeeming the Rainbow - A Christian Response to the ‘Gay’ Agenda is available to be read or downloaded online at this link :massresistance.org/docs/gen/09b/Redeeming_rainbow/

It fills in a lot of blanks.

Perhaps one day you might be able to explain to your SIL how ignorant people who are getting duped , and are voicing their uninformed opinions (as he is) may perhaps be responsible for the culmination of a complete absurdity one day in our world, where there will be a larger percentage of heterosexuals than homosexuals who favour gay -]marriage/-] . :doh2:

Wouldn’t it be nice to ask anyone in favour of same-sex -]marriage/-] what gives homosexuals the right to indoctrinate your own children with the homosexual agenda while you, the parent, are against it ?

Don’t hold your breath waiting for a just answer - there is no sane or just rationale for homosexuals committing child menticide whether directly or indirectly . That is one of the evils the gay militants would rather divert our attention away from.

 

[3DOCTORS]

DH really could have just kept that little thought to himself “Well, I agree w/ the message . . .” I just walk away thinking, why am I still having children with a man I already know to be anti-religion? On a day-to-day basis I can almost forget about the enormous gap between us, but when he says little things like this it’s like re-opening a wound that really may never heal without his conversion (in my thinking).

I feel bad for you in this situation. I dated a guy who was not strong in his Catholic Faith and am very thankful now that it did not progress to marriage. I was feeling that empty gap while we were dating. It’s not a good feeling, not at all. :nope:

Keep praying for your husband - sounds like he may be viewing this like some Catholic politicians view abortion - the “I wouldn’t have an abortion but I can’t force my views on others” argument.

Ask St. Rita to intercede for his conversion and also pray the prayer from the Divine Mercy Diary: “O Blood and Water which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fountain of mercy for us, I Trust In You!”. This prayer is said to bring about conversions. I will add my prayers as well.

@ faithtrekker - I second the idea of trying to extricate yourself graciously from this roommate situation before it gets anymore complicated. Good luck to you!

@ needimprovement - great post and thanks for the resources!

 

[NeedImprovement]

. . .
@ needimprovement - great post and thanks for the resources!

:tiphat:
I pray daily - particularly during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, for all those who struggle with or are personally involved in this issue .Confusion can paralyze, There are some Catholics who struggle heroically with these types of issues and I have friends who struggle with them as well.

But I decided a few years back that I wasn’t going to be eating any of the gay lobbyists’ lies for breakfast ( heck - I’ll take a nice hot bowl of oatmeal over a bowl of " self-indulgent cr** " any day of the week - ).

---

Back to that interview with Archbishop Cordileone for a moment (here’s the link again : catholicherald.co.uk/features/2013/01/28/all-our-detractors-can-do-is-call-us-names/ ) :

He warns us that even using the term “gay marriage” tends to condition people into forgetting that it is a natural impossibility :

Archbishop Cordileone cautions against over-using the term “gay marriage”, advising that it should be used “only sparingly” because it is a natural impossibility and if we keep talking about gay marriage we might fool ourselves into thinking it is an authentic reality, which only needs government approval to make it legitimate. “Legislating for the right for people of the same sex to marry is like legalising male breastfeeding.”

On a recent thread started by a member based on this same interview with Archbishop Cordileone, we also mentioned that ,

It is poignantly true that the more we use the term gay marriage , the more conditioned to it we and those around us can become. Actually , as soon as we even make the mistake of calling marriage traditional marriage , we are implying that there is another viable alternative.

How about the slightly more innocent appearance of the term same sex marriage - with its already well known acronym SSM . . . ?. . . When this term is employed , we find ourselves referring to what in all truth should simply be “marriage” as opposite sex marriage. What an awkward laborious expression for the most natural thing in the world !

Dr. Scott Lively provides an enlightening, concise primer on homosexual sophistry in one single article : DECIPHERING ‘GAY’ WORD-SPEAK AND LANGUAGE OF CONFUSION . It’s a great foundation for understanding the general perspective required when debating the lies.

Although the article was written almost 12 years ago , it is just as timely today : He takes a nice balanced individual look at some of the principal buzzwords they’ve either hijacked or fabricated:

Sexual Orientation , Diversity , Discrimination , Homophobia, Tolerance

He concludes with something which has been posted previously in these forums (and which it wouldn’t hurt to post later on in this thread either) Ten Rules for Debating “Gay” Arguments (As applied in a hypothetical conversation). The information in those “Ten Rules” is invaluable.

(On that previous thread , I believe we actually modified it to read 11 rules - we added* praying the Rosary daily*. ).