Gay Marriage in America

[Elizabeth502]

I You have claimed that Catholic Answers five non-negotiables were Church teaching.

I never said that they emanated from the magisterium. That would be the category of “Church teaching.” I said, and sitll say, that they derived from the same 5 principles just accurately reposted by Michelle, which are incontravertible as moral absolutes, not as political directives. They are not political directives. They are guides to consider when voting.

My conversation with St.Anastasia, in which I introduced the non-negotiables, was in reference to moral statements, not political ones, or political action – hers, mine, or Catholic Answers’.

But again, try not to be insulted by my good wishes that you have a nice day.

 

[StAnastasia]

I attend the universal Roman Catholic Church. It’s the same universal Church you attend, if in fact yours is also in communion with Rome, which I assume it is.

Yes, it is in Communion with Rome, and it is administered by Dominicans.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Yes, it is in Communion with Rome, and it is administered by Dominicans.

In which case, we obviously do not attend different “churches.”

 

[Wardog]

Yes, it is in Communion with Rome, and it is administered by Dominicans.

That’s ironic; weren’t the Dominicans in charge of the Spanish Inquistion

 

[StAnastasia]

That’s ironic; weren’t the Dominicans in charge of the Spanish Inquistion

Yes; they ran out of wood and matches for autos-da-fe.

 

[Wardog]

Yes; they ran out of wood and matches for autos-da-fe.

Maybe it will restart on this thread with spontaneous human combustion; you are certainly making peoples’ heads explode.

 

[StAnastasia]

Yes; they ran out of wood and matches for autos-da-fe.

Actually, the Spanish Inquisition seems to have been suppressed before wooden safety matches had come into common use.

 

[StAnastasia]

Maybe it will restart on this thread with spontaneous human combustion; you are certainly making peoples’ heads explode.

Oh geez – I’ve been dealing with spontaneous human combustion nonsense all last week. I don’t know why people are so gullible…

Incidentally, the last public auto de fe apparently took place in 1691, and some form of match appeared in Europe around 1530. So maybe the Dominicans did use matches. there must be at least a history master’s thesis in researching how autos da fe were lighted.

 

[TMC]

**I never said that they emanated from the magisterium. That would be the category of “Church teaching.” **I said, and sitll say, that they derived from the same 5 principles just accurately reposted by Michelle, which are incontravertible as moral absolutes, not as political directives. They are not political directives. They are guides to consider when voting.

My conversation with St.Anastasia, in which I introduced the non-negotiables, was in reference to moral statements, not political ones, or political action – hers, mine, or Catholic Answers’.

But again, try not to be insulted by my good wishes that you have a nice day.

Hmm, then what did you mean when you said this:

You don’t get this, do you? As a Catholic, you are directed to be informed about what your Church teaches. It has nothing to do with what “I” or “you” oppose or accept. If and when there is definitive Church direction about specific contemporary issues, faithful citizenship does not allow cavalier departure from Church directives, based on principles outside of what informs Catholic decision-making.

The bishops have spoken, below and elsewhere. This issue is one the 5 Non-Negotiables for faithfully practicing Catholics.

The so-called " five non-negotiables" are a political statement by Catholic Answers Action, they are not part of any Church teaching.

 

[Wardog]

Oh geez – I’ve been dealing with spontaneous human combustion nonsense all last week. I don’t know why people are so gullible…

Incidentally, the last public auto de fe apparently took place in 1691, and some form of match appeared in Europe around 1530. So maybe the Dominicans did use matches. there must be at least a history master’s thesis in researching how autos da fe were lighted.

That is at least as important as defining the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[StAnastasia]

That is at least as important as defining the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

Your answer is forty-two.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Hmm, then what did you mean when you said this:

I meant that the content of the 5 non-negotiables are solid Church teaching, as repeated recently here by Michelle. They all correspond to the Catechism, the Encylicals, and other Church documents (statements by bishops, and more). There is nothing specifically partisan or heavy-handed about the moral absolutes proclaimed in the 5 principles. The so-called controversy is with respect to the term 'Non-Negotiable." There’s no need to get exercised about the term. There’s no Reign of Terror implied by that term. The term is intended as a guide for Catholics who understand their faith and practice their faith, and apply that faith in the public square (as directed by the document Faithful Citizenship) as the salient principles which are “the bottom line.” As a practical matter, it will be difficult in most cases, to find a candidate running for national political office, and even often local political office, who espouses these 5 points. It is often more realistic to identify single issues (legislative initiatives, etc.) which do or do not align with these.

There is zero conflict between the principles of the Voters’ Guide and the moral teaching of the magisterium. They in fact reflect Church teaching.

 

[Wardog]

Your answer is forty-two.

Sublime answer.

 

[Quirious]

That is at least as important as defining the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

The Church says that pin dancing by immortals is immoral, and therefore not a civil right. The pin dancing advocates say that immortals have just as much right as anyone else to dance on a pin. The Church says that the pin dancer advocates are trying to change the meaning of the word “pin”, and this will undermine life for everyone everywhere and society will end as we know it. All pins will be pulled into a giant magnet. The pin dancing advocates say that nothing big will happen, and that pin dancers deserve equality.

The two sides will not agree any time soon, but they like to go round and round in circles thinking that someone will change.

 

[sedonaman]

That’s a rather blanket statement.

This whole idea of SS"M" is based on a blanket statement that the law is suppose to make people have equal outcomes in life instead of equal protection of the law, as a result of gross distortion of what the 14th Amendment’s purpose was – to ensure recently freed slaves would receive that “equal protection” from the former slave states. I hardly think the congress was thinking of equal protection for sodomy when they voted on the 14th Amendment. As a consequence of that distortion, what started as a demand for basic civil rights has mutated into a liberal demand to overturn the whole society, along with its traditions and norms, its standards and laws, its history and heroes.

In my household we teach that each of our children’s points of view is valid and must be given an airing.

You can teach your kids that sunbeams come from cucumbers, but that doesn’t mean sunbeams come from cucumbers. I taught my kids that everyone has a right to express an opinion in an orderly, respectful fashion, but that’s a far cry from saying everyone’s opinion is equal. Obviously they are not, for if they were, the whole American Revolution would have been pointless since the Colonies could have simply adopted the King’s opinion instead of the Bill of Rights that you appealed to in a previous post.

They do have a point of view, as do evolution deniers and climate change deniers. Whether those viewpoints deserve a hearing depends on the audience and the context.

I would have to search far and wide to find a more relativistic statement.

If all opinions are considered of equal value, validity, and worth, and there is no principle [e.g., God] by which to discern among them. Society is then a contest of a will to power, of asserting one’s preferences over those of others.

I’m not familiar with the parade or the controversy.

Why didn’t you read the reference? The court said, “… disapproval of a private speaker’s statement does not legitimize use of the government’s power to compel the speaker to alter the message by including one more acceptable to others.”

The advocates of SS"M" are trying to use the government’s power to compel the opposition to alter its message to one that is more acceptable to those advocates. They have stated in plain English that they want the government to hand over our souls to them.

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"The indispensable condition for our personal spiritual survival, is that we say NO to the prevailing values of the liberal order and that we keep saying NO.”

 

[StAnastasia]

You can teach your kids that sunbeams come from cucumbers, but that doesn’t mean sunbeams come from cucumbers.

Quite true.

I taught my kids that everyone has a right to express an opinion in an orderly, respectful fashion, but that’s a far cry from saying everyone’s opinion is equal.

 

[Wardog]

Who ever said all opinions are considered of equal value?

 

[BigFellaMick]

I’ve been reading this a lot on this forum and abroad. That homosexuality is not a choice. Yet america’s leading psychologists and psychiatrists say that homosexuality is in fact a choice. exodusglobalalliance.org/homosexualityandthetruthp37.php The liberal agenda has pushed the notion of a gay gene to gather sympathy for their unworthy cause. “Equality”. At what cost? I would not suffer the loss of anyone’s salvation to make a fringe group of secularists feel happy to arrogantly drape themselves in sin. I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news but homosexuality IS A CHOICE. Plain and simple. It’s been said before, God would not create someone to be gay, in effect setting them up for failure. I do believe that he throws same sex attractions at people as a means to test them, to give them a trial. We all have crosses to bare, some more difficult than others. But its the CHOICE of acting on attractions and focusing on them, that eventually lead into an individual choosing to identify themselves as homosexual. I don’t personally believe someone can pray the gay away. The change has to start with themselves for any prayer to have effect. Once they acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin and is something that is very detrimental, not only to their health, but their salvation, then prayerfully they would seek to change. And with the prayers of friends and loved ones and sincere attempts at counseling, people can change. And the argument that because animals do it makes it ok for humans? Humans were above animals and are infinitely different from them as we have morality and free will. We do not simply exist on instinct. Its sad to see so much division where there should be none. I pray for everyone to overcome their personal sins (regardless of who they are or what their sins) so that we may all be better suited to strengthen one another. Is it such a bad thing to want EVERYONE to be able to reside with the Lord after death? I don’t want anyone to go to hell u_u And if I have to be called homophobic and bigoted to try and help people than so be it.

 

[michelleds]

I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how those statements are contrary to Church teaching; so contrary, in fact, that someone could be Catholic and claim not to know them.

Abortion–NO

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

Embryonic Stem Cell Research–NO

Medical research must refrain from operations on live embryos, unless there is a moral certainty of not causing harm to the life or integrity of the unborn child and the mother, and on condition that the parents have given their free and informed consent to the procedure. It follows that all research, even when limited to the simple observation of the embryo, would become illicit were it to involve risk to the embryo’s physical integrity or life by reason of the methods used or the effects induced (Donum Vitae 1:4).

Human Cloning–NO (same as above)

Euthanasia–NO

Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable. Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes the death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded. Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. (CCC 2277-2278).

SSM–NO

saintaquinas.com/controversial.html

 

[sedonaman]

…Who ever said all opinions are considered of equal value?

Once again, you didn’t read.

…In my household we teach that each of our children’s points of view is valid and must be given an airing.

It implies they are equal, unless you want to argue there are different degrees of validity.

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“Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people. None of these people has ever been held accountable.”