Gay Marriage in America

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I think its hard to deny that the Magisterium discriminates against certain types and classes of persons - the only question is whether that discrimination is justified or not. I think some is, but most is not. That is an opinion that can’t be said to be heretical or orthodox - those terms don’t apply to this kind of opinion.
If someone declares the Magisterium bigoted (i.e. unjust), that person is declaring the Holy Spirit bigoted (i.e. unjust), since it teaches infallibly by the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which, last time I checked, is still the worst sin imaginable.

I don’t know how much simpler I can make it.
 
Asking to show a positive correlartion between full legal protection for gays and lesbians and a supposed increase in the crime rate is as good a display of obtuseness as I have ever sen. You must practice, surely, to be so good at it? I find your posts long on facetiousness and short on argument. You fail to engage with arguments that strike at the very core of your moral relativism and you trivilaise the issues wherever possible. Is it the best you can do to pick someone up on a spelling error? Someone else’s spelling errors don’t make your arguments any the more sensible, let alone compelling.

Others have already picked you up on the fact that the notion of gay ‘marriage’ is not required to give legal protection to gays and lesbians. That argument is simply a red herring and factually wrong in the telling.

You still need to tell us how it is that you, who supposedly teaches ethics, have not heard of a hierarchy of morals. More so as you profess to be Catholic and the Catechism points out to anyone who cares to read its contents that there is indeed a hierarchy .of right and wrong. Like I said, the Criminal Law also recognises a hierarchy of right and wrong. In case you didn’t know it, the Criminal Law in western societies is based on the Catholic view of morality and has been so ever since Justinian implemented his legal code. Go look it up.

If you are indeed a Catholic, then you need to begin to preach and practice what the Church teaches and not what is anathema.
Mega 👍

“Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people. None of these people has ever been held accountable.”
 
STA, I think John made some pretty good point in his last post. Could you address his post point by point? I’d be interested in where you think his argument fails.Thanks!
I’m on deadline today (a theology article, a book review, a PowerPoint and a conference proposal). Although this is a stimulating discussion, I’ll have to pick it up over the weekend, if I complete my projects today.

StAnastasia
 
I said using THEIR theology or morality… at the beginning of that statement.

If you have to use what we believe to base the argument on it, why would they agree with you? How is that not using our religion to force others to agree with us?

FYI…I do not use this argument in support of abortion. Abortion ends a human life and that is already illegal. The debate is about when life begins, and I think we have science on our side. I do make the case regarding all other forms of birth control though - that’s their business and on their conscience.
The contraceptive pill sometimes ends a human life. It causes a silent abortion some of the times it is used. Some percent of the time fertilization (new life) is achieved and the birth control pill prevents it from being implanted (killing a human life).

Also, the hormones from birth control pills are getting in the water and doing nasty things to fishes (hurts the environment) by causing feminized male fishes (female parts). The estrogen in the water might start having an effect on humans, so a woman’s “choice” is hurting everyone else who drinks her water.
 
I don’t agree with your first premise - certainly growing up without parents is not good for children and I don’t believe having gay parents instead of no parents is harmful to children. As to Catholic Charities, my understanding is that Catholic Charities is out of the adoption business only in states where it was working for the state and using state funds, because the state has a right to require its contractors to follow its rules. I agree that the Church is against SSM, and that the Church advocates for children to be raised by opposite sex married couples. I am not so sure that the Church is so very clear that it is always and everywhere opposed to same sex couples adopting, anymore than the Church is always and everywhere opposed to single people adopting.
Allow me to clarify it for you, per the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood. Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.
 
You would be absolutely wrong in that interpretation.

There are tens of thousands of different religions and sects within religions in the world. I think that all have their own form of truth that they believe in. I happen to agree with you regarding truth, but why should “our” truth be the one that an entire nation follows?

What if our nation does pass laws regarding people’s personal belief in “truth” and it’s not our version that is passed? What then?

Shouldn’t everyone be free to believe what they want?
Because only one can be true, and if you truly believe in your faith, then you believe that yours is the one truth, and everyone else is gravely in error. Our job is to being people to our true faith to save them from their sins.

Most pagans and athiests believed marriage was between one man and one woman, until the “Knabenshaender” started with their agenda to become recognized. With all due respect, they should be prayerfully celibate.

If they wish to have sex, that is their sin and we haven’t stopped others.
However, if they wish to marry, we must stop them, because marriage is between one man and one woman, today, tomorrow and forever.

2+2 always =4
 
I’m on deadline today (a theology article, a book review, a PowerPoint and a conference proposal). Although this is a stimulating discussion, I’ll have to pick it up over the weekend, if I complete my projects today.

StAnastasia
I find it best to remain silent unless one can make a cogent response. Snarky remarks tend to discredit the the intellectual integrity of the poster and quash sincere discussion of the topic.

We may never agree on many things, but open and honest dialog is something we Catholics ought to be able to engage in. (yes I ended my sentence with a preposition) 😉

My :twocents:
 
Because only one can be true, and if you truly believe in your faith, then you believe that yours is the one truth, and everyone else is gravely in error. Our job is to being people to our true faith to save them from their sins.

Most pagans and athiests believed marriage was between one man and one woman, until the** “Knabenshaender” **started with their agenda to become recognized. With all due respect, they should be prayerfully celibate.

If they wish to have sex, that is their sin and we haven’t stopped others.
However, if they wish to marry, we must stop them, because marriage is between one man and one woman, today, tomorrow and forever.

2+2 always =4
hahaha, what is that term? Never heard it before!
 
I resort to facetiousness because your claim that public recognition of gay and lesbian relationships will lead to the moral breakdown of society is vacuous.
How much of a negative effect does it have to have on society leading towards a moral breakdown before you will act to stop it? What about if when all was said and done it would only be counted as 1% of the moral breakdown of society? Another poster was right in saying that we are already headed well down the road as a society. Are you willingly to throw in the towel and give the can another kick down the road even if its a small one? Please explain how much of an effect it would have to have before it would trump the sentimentalism you have?
 
Except in base 3 where 2 + 2 = 11.
But two objects and two other objects always makes four objects, no matter what numeral base is being used.

5+5 always equals ten, even if we’re using base-12 and write ten as A.
 
Except in base 3 where 2 + 2 = 11.

There is a hidden assumption in there. Once you make the hidden assumption explicit, it does not say quite the same thing.

rossum
you forgot the greatest assumption of all…that our ability to reason has any relation to reality at all…
 
If someone declares the Magisterium bigoted (i.e. unjust), that person is declaring the Holy Spirit bigoted (i.e. unjust), since it teaches infallibly by the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which, last time I checked, is still the worst sin imaginable.

I don’t know how much simpler I can make it.
You might not be able to make it simpler, but you could make it more accurate. The Magisterium is not the same thing as the Holy Spirit. That is simply a ridiculous thing to say and no Pope or other member of the Magisterium would agree with it. The Magisterium makes mistakes and sometimes does things it should not. No Pope or other member of the Magisterium would deny that. In fact, the current and past Popes have clearly stated that the Church has made any number of mistakes through the years. The fact that some very few teachings are considered infallible does not transform the entire institution into godlings.
 
You might not be able to make it simpler, but you could make it more accurate. The Magisterium is not the same thing as the Holy Spirit. That is simply a ridiculous thing to say and no Pope or other member of the Magisterium would agree with it. The Magisterium makes mistakes and sometimes does things it should not. No Pope or other member of the Magisterium would deny that. In fact, the current and past Popes have clearly stated that the Church has made any number of mistakes through the years. The fact that some very few teachings are considered infallible does not transform the entire institution into godlings.
I think its one thing to say individuals or groups of people within the Magesterium are bigoted. Its another to take it to the level of saying the Magisterium is bigoted. That’s on the same level as saying Congress is bigoted therefore, the U.S is bigoted.
 
You might not be able to make it simpler, but you could make it more accurate. The Magisterium is not the same thing as the Holy Spirit. That is simply a ridiculous thing to say and no Pope or other member of the Magisterium would agree with it. The Magisterium makes mistakes and sometimes does things it should not. No Pope or other member of the Magisterium would deny that. In fact, the current and past Popes have clearly stated that the Church has made any number of mistakes through the years. The fact that some very few teachings are considered infallible does not transform the entire institution into godlings.
The teaching authority of the Magisterium is infallible. And all of its teaching is based in faith and morals. The basis of morality is justice. So if you disagree with the moral teaching of the Magisterium, you are declaring the Magisterium unjust. Since the Magisterium gets its marching orders from the Holy Spirit, you are therefore declaring the Holy Spirit unjust.
 
… Please explain how much of an effect it would have to have before it would trump the sentimentalism you have?
With intellectuals, bad results are never a consequence of their ideas being based on faulty assumptions but the failure to implement properly, or some other unrelated reason. So your question doesn’t have an answer.

“Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people. None of these people has ever been held accountable.”
 
The teaching authority of the Magisterium is infallible. And all of its teaching is based in faith and morals. The basis of morality is justice. So if you disagree with the moral teaching of the Magisterium, you are declaring the Magisterium unjust. Since the Magisterium gets its marching orders from the Holy Spirit, you are therefore declaring the Holy Spirit unjust.
C’mon, you know better than that. Everything that comes from the Magisterium is not infallible, nor is everything the Magisterium does a matter of faith or morals. One can disagree with the Magisterium on any number of things and not be either opposing infallible statements or declaring the Holy Spirit unjust. There are religions in which the leaders declare themselves to be Gods, but Catholicism is not one of them.
 
If this is the Church’s position, then I agree I was wrong. I would respectfully disagree with that position, however.
What evidence do you have that leads you to disagree with it?

“Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people. None of these people has ever been held accountable.”
 
The fact that some very few teachings are considered infallible does not transform the entire institution into godlings.
No, a few of the direct statement of the Holy Father are absolutely infallible (when he speaks ex-cathedra), but the body of teaching of the Magisterium is infallible by definition. The pope does not need to speak ex-cathedra on 99% of these matters because they are already established fact. Extraordinary declarations of dogma by the Pope are rare occurrences because almost all dogma is already in the body of teaching of the Magisterium. The Pope spoke ex-cathedra on the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception because these were not yet declared dogmas, but were part of the Deposit of Faith in Sacred Tradition.

Per the Constitution of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion.(1*) And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful.
The Magisterium is infallible and you are compelled by the Church to believe so. I didn’t write it. The Church wrote it.
 
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