Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

[fix]

I have presented statements from almost every mental and medical health group within the USA. You’ve not presented any facts. You have presented Catholic dogma.

I have presented the facts on the moral issue. The acts are not ordered toward the good.

The psychological issues are a mixture of some science and much politics.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I don’t imply any of these ideas your sacred writings imply these. I am citing *your texts *and you are saying it is my argument. Believe me these are most certainly not My arguments

You were trying to insult the Catholic/Judao morality. You started talking about women’s rights. The Catholic Faith is very definitely for women’s rights. That does not mean that Sheise for homosexual marriage. God never instructed the removal of a woman’s dignity. Neither did the Church.

The argument about women’s rights and homosexuals having a right to marry are not the same in any way.

 

[Numinous]

Hi everyone. A friend of mine has come up with an argument for homosexual marriage that I can’t seem to defeat. He says that homosexuals should be allowed to marry because of the fact that they were born that way and also because they deserve to have romantic relationships too. He says it would be unjust to deprive them of equal rights just because they are attracted to the same sex. How do I counter this?

This argument has stumped you??

Simple answer: sex cannot be divorced from its specifically-designed unitive, procreative functions, and thus homosexual sex, being neither unitive nor procreative, is a denial of proper sex and defies God’s design and is therefore disobedience and is therefore sin.

Furthermore, your friend is begging the question if he thinks we human beings have the right to anything. We have a duty to be obedient.

 

[ltravis]

Why did the OP even post this in a religious forum? He is conceding the religious definition of marriage and presenting a secular proposal. It belongs in a legal or government forum if you ask me.

Nevertheless, his plan is problematic anyway. Society simply has little to gain from expending resources to give benefits to a same sex couple. Such unions cannot produce children to make society’s investment in the couple worthwhile. Its not about rights (*no *couple has a right to government benefits purely for being a couple). Its about society making an investment in its future.

That, finally, is the answer to the question the OP presented and repeated so many times in this thread.

 

[thewalrus]

I read through about 3 pages of this thread and was reminded of why I left the Church a few years ago. court14, thanks for being a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant thread. To the rest of you, I speak as an outsider. If you want the Church to have something to say to those outside of it, you cannot continue to cloak prejudice and fear in doctrinal formulations.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

The breath is sourced from The Liar - the breath of Death. The breath of Life resides in the Truth which is Jesus Christ.

People who leave the Church, do so becuase they have accepted a lie as truth. They do not know what they are leaving. They leave Truth Himself.

These are not mere “doctrinal formulations” these are living, breathing Truth from Christ and The Vicor Of Christ.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0222/__P7.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2333

Reconcile. Let The Truth guide you to Him.

 

[court14]

You were trying to insult the Catholic/Judao morality. You started talking about women’s rights. The Catholic Faith is very definitely for women’s rights. That does not mean that Sheise for homosexual marriage. God never instructed the removal of a woman’s dignity. Neither did the Church.

The argument about women’s rights and homosexuals having a right to marry are not the same in any way.

So citing verses from the bible is an insult to Catholic morality?

 

[thewalrus]

The breath is sourced from The Liar - the breath of Death. The breath of Life resides in the Truth which is Jesus Christ.

People who leave the Church, do so becuase they have accepted a lie as truth. They do not know what they are leaving. They leave Truth Himself.

These are not mere “doctrinal formulations” these are living, breathing Truth from Christ and The Vicor Of Christ.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0222/__P7.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2333

Reconcile. Let The Truth guide you to Him.

Well, you wrote me off after your 3rd sentence…and proved my point.

 

[Neolithic]

I had a rather long discussion with someone about how homosexuality is not a mental disorder, and I thought it was in this thread. Either the mods deleted it (wonder why) or I am mistaken.

 

[ltravis]

Let me approach this issue with the reason behind what some may call the church’s “prejudice”:

God is love. That love is so strong its is creative. God loved the universe into existence. Love needs to be shared so God created humanity in his image and injected himself into it (for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son). Love creates life. Now, as God, through the Son, entered humanity - so too did humanity enter into God’s holiness. God and humanity are bound together and the greatest seal of that is the privelege of God sharing his most essential nature with us. He gave us the ability to share in his ability to use love to create life. Man and woman share the deepest, most Godlike love, and it creates life. It is the only eternal thing God has let his creation create on its own.

That is why sexuality and marriage is so sacred and so holy. That is why it is more than just an action, or instinct, or animal nature. That is why God doesn’t want us tampering with it and redefining its purpose. We have been given the privelege and responsibility or carrying part of God’s own nature. Nothing needs more protection than that.

That is the reason behind the Church’s stance on sexuality. We may choose to acknowledge it and be in union with the church, or we may reject it - and the church. But the church can’t deny Truth.

 

[mnealon1]

I agree with thistle. I feel great compassion for those who have this afflication and great reward will be given to those who abstain. However the answer is very short
Jesus himself said " man who lies with man is an abomination to me"

 

[buffalo]

I read through about 3 pages of this thread and was reminded of why I left the Church a few years ago. court14, thanks for being a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant thread. To the rest of you, I speak as an outsider. If you want the Church to have something to say to those outside of it, you cannot continue to cloak prejudice and fear in doctrinal formulations.

OK - we will change the truth for your sake. No problem. :banghead:

 

[fix]

If you want the Church to have something to say to those outside of it, you cannot continue to cloak prejudice and fear in doctrinal formulations.

Is it fair to call true understanding of morality prejudice and fear?

 

[fix]

cont
Deuteronomy 25:5-10: states that if a woman is widowed, she would be required to marry her former brother-in-law.
Deuteronomy 25:11: If two men are fighting, and the wife of one of them grabs the other man’s testicles, her hand is to be chopped off. There is no penalty if a male relative were to grab the other man.
Judges 19:16-30 describes an event similar to Genesis 19. Some men in the city wanted to “know” a visiting Levite. The owner of the house offered his virgin daughter and the Levite’s concubine so that the men could rape them. Verse 24 states: “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.” The man sent his own concubine outside to the gang, who proceeded to serially rape her. She died of the attacks. The man only learned of her death when he was leaving the house in the morning and stumbled across her body. The woman was clearly considered expendable and of little value.

2 Chronicles 36:23 mentions the Second Temple which was constructed after some Jews returned from exile in Babylon. It was rebuilt by Herod late in the 1st century BCE. One of its features was women’s court, considered the least sacred area.
During the Second Temple period, women were not allowed to testify in court trials. They could not go out in public, or talk to strangers. When outside of their homes, they were to be doubly veiled. “They had become second-class Jews, excluded from the worship and teaching of God, with status scarcely above that of slaves.” 3
These are the ideas you believe should be objective morality validated by either holy scripture and/or the fathers of the church.

You do know the Mosiac law was imperfect and replaced by Jesus?

If you truly embrace judeo/christian teaching from scripture and tradition you must accept that you are the cause of the fall,defective and misbegotten, unworthy to bear witness, made in the image of man rather than God… The fact that you are attempting to instruct me, a male is contrary to the teachings of St. Paul.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. **But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing. **

These “liberals” so intent on the demise of society a century ago were fighting for your right to vote, work outside the home and receive equal pay for equal work and these rights were near 6000 yrs overdue.
So I hope you understand why I might not view judeochristian morality as an objective ideal model.

This is what happens when we have a facile interpretation of Scripture and one without recourse to the true authority of Mother Church.

 

[pete_29]

Maybe someone asked this already, but just why do any of us DESERVE romantic relationships?

 

[Numinous]

Exactly. No one deserves anything…except a nice big helping o’ death.

 

[pathia]

Maybe someone asked this already, but just why do any of us DESERVE romantic relationships?

No one deserves it, but it comes to us. Why turn it away?

I’ve been with my partner for 9years, almost 10 now. Our roommates have been together for 20+ and our gaming couple down the road (We play card games together on the weekends) down the street are in their 70’s now and have been together around 50 years.

 

[pete_29]

No one deserves it, but it comes to us. Why turn it away?

I’ve been with my partner for 9years, almost 10 now. Our roommates have been together for 20+ and our gaming couple down the road (We play card games together on the weekends) down the street are in their 70’s now and have been together around 50 years.

I can only speak for myself, but to me it boils down to who, or what, do you love more, God or your relationship.

 

[pathia]

I can only speak for myself, but to me it boils down to who, or what, do you love more, God or your relationship.

Exactly what is sinful about my relationship? We are celibate. I honestly don’t see why the two are mutually incompatible. If I haven’t ‘fallen’ after nine years, I’m not bloody likely to as I get older and less energetic anyway

 

[pete_29]

Exactly what is sinful about my relationship? We are celibate. I honestly don’t see why the two are mutually incompatible. If I haven’t ‘fallen’ after nine years, I’m not bloody likely to as I get older and less energetic anyway

Carefully read my post. I’m saying that in my case, I would have to decide Which I loved more, God or my relationship.