Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

[Bennie_P]

I’ve been together with my partner for 9 years. Our roommates about 20ish. We’re both technically ‘homosexual male’ couples (If you ignore my biological oddities for the example anyway) and our gaming couple down the street have been together for FIFTY years. I’ve never seen or heard any evidence that they’ve been anything but faithful to each other, they are also a male pairing.

You seem to have a skewed vision of homosexuals as envisioned by 1950’s propoganda or something. Are there gays that act the way you speak of? Of course, but then there are heterosexuals that do as well. There is a problem with impulse control in our society and those men that conduct that activity often displayed the drug/alcohol etc long before they were gay. I think there’s something wrong with their brains, being gay is just an aspect of their personality, not the cause of their behavior.

They get addicted to everything, not just sex. I ran into so many of these men in the ex-gay programs. They cannot be not-addicted. The only way they could stop doing sex/drugs/anonymous homosexual sex was to get addicted to something else, the ‘ex-gay lifestyle’ except it’s not that glamorous or adrenaline inducing, so many fall off the boat.

I have yet to meet a man who says he’s ‘ex-gay’ and actually straight. They may marry women, often ex-lesbians, but they have to exercise their marital visits in the dark, because they both have to fantasize a same sex partner to actually do the deed. I can’t imagine a worse environment to grow up in, with two parents who have no attraction to one another, built on lies.

Actually my view of homosexuals come from my associations with homosexuals as friends and politcal activist in which I work with on politcal justice issues over the last thirty years.

I am not parroting a message I have only read about, but a message that delveloped over decades of experience with and exposure to those that have been sudduced to a lifestyle in which I have seen taken some of them to the grave.

One common I thread I have noticed with all of them is the denial that their behavoir was killing them either physically and/or spiritually and those that they surrounded themselves with were a bunch of cowards afraid to tell them the truth, yet would speak and gossip against them behind their backs. Solidarity among liberals

The person that tells an active homosexual what they do is ok and acceptable is the active homosexual’s true enemy, not a friend, for that person only cares about themself, how they feel, or how they want to be seen as(i.e. open mined ), or accepted and not the person that struggles with homosexuality. IMHO

Please note the qualifier active…

 

[Numinous]

No, actually, my point was that you should reconsider what you have considered to be the truth…for your sake. Putting yourself in a position where you cannot question things is a bit like…well, banging your head against the wall…

But questioning one’s beliefs does not necessarily lead to the abandonment of said beliefs. I questioned the beliefs in which I had been raised for years, but through that questioning and searching I actually discovered that the Christian worldview which I so wanted to reject is actually the Truth. So, questioning strengthened my faith; it did not make me abandon it or change my stance on issues like this.

 

[thewalrus]

If so-called “truth” changes in essense then it was never the truth. The truth as revealed to us through Him and The Vicar Of Christ (ex cathedra) is infallible and immutable. It does not change. We can more fully or less fully understand the Truth but the Truth can not, will not change in substance.

Is the Eucharist the Body and Blood. Yes.

Is it The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit as one. Yes.

When Vicar Of Christ speaks/reveals Ex Cathedra is it infallible. Yes.

Now while we may not fully grasp the meaning of these Truths and we continue to contemplate and ask for His help, these Truths, in essence, can not and will not change.

Ever heard of Galileo?

 

[buffalo]

Ever heard of Galileo?

What about him?

 

[Bennie_P]

Ever heard of Galileo?

No one ever spoke against him ex cathedra.

 

[Bennie_P]

Umm, no Bennie that’s not what that quote says. That quote says the Marquis de Sade had a homosexual encounter. In what way does that prove that the term “sadism” denotes a bisexual behavior??

More so then saying God is sadistic because He calls all us to live a chaste life.

 

[thewalrus]

But questioning one’s beliefs does not necessarily lead to the abandonment of said beliefs. I questioned the beliefs in which I had been raised for years, but through that questioning and searching I actually discovered that the Christian worldview which I so wanted to reject is actually the Truth. So, questioning strengthened my faith; it did not make me abandon it or change my stance on issues like this.

Numinous, you are completely right and I respect that fully. But how do you relate to others like me whose journey of questions and searching led me to reject that view? And what about Christians whose journey led them to reject African Americans as fully human? When a resulting “truth” comes out looking like something different than what we find exhibited in the life of Christ, I think that’s a good sign the questioning should continue.

 

[Sillara]

Actually, if you look into what was going on with Galileo, you will discover several things.

The Pope, first of all, does not speak “ex cathedra” on matters of science.

At the time, Galileo was NOT the only one looking into a heliocentric theory. The Jesuits were also–with papal approval, I might add.

When Galileo first presented his theories of heliocentrism, he did so based on lunar orbits around Jupiter. Interesting, but hardly conclusive, and the Pope insisted that Galileo, in his writings, present both sides of the argument, heliocentric and geocentric, according to all the data they currently possessed.

Galileo was offended by this, and he took the opportunity to insult the Pope personally in those writings.

This led to Galileo’s troubles.

 

[buffalo]

Actually, if you look into what was going on with Galileo, you will discover several things.

The Pope, first of all, does not speak “ex cathedra” on matters of science.

At the time, Galileo was NOT the only one looking into a heliocentric theory. The Jesuits were also–with papal approval, I might add.

Galileo first presented his theories of heliocentrism, he did so based on lunar orbits around Jupiter. Interesting, but hardly conclusive, and the Pope insisted that Galileo, in his writings, present both sides of the argument, heliocentric and geocentric, according to all the data they currently possessed.

Galileo was offended by this, and he took the opportunity to insult the Pope personally in those writings.

This led to Galileo’s troubles.

And Galileo was wrong as we now know the sun is not the center of the universe.

 

[mathilda12]

i think gay marriage is fine god loves everyone for who they are and they are girls getting abortion that is not fine gay marriage is better than abortion have equal rights u can’t judge only god can don’t be wrong

 

[buffalo]

i think gay marriage is fine god loves everyone for who they are and they are girls getting abortion that is not fine gay marriage is better than abortion have equal rights u can’t judge only god can don’t be wrong

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction. You are about to get a large dose.

 

[Bennie_P]

Why “Gay Marriage” Is Wrong …

This teaching of the Church does not intend to offend our homosexual brothers and sisters, and we recognize that for some individuals and their families, especially parents, questions of sexual identity and behavior can be very difficult and emotionally charged. To those individuals and their families we offer our sincere concern and prayerful support. As a society, however, we have to understand the possibility, sometimes the necessity, of loving and respecting individuals even while rejecting their inappropriate or immoral behavior. (Parents have to do that with their children once in awhile, don’t they?)
Additionally, it’s not a matter of civil rights as some have claimed. Freedom is not unbridled license. Authentic human freedom is intrinsically connected to moral truth. In short, there’s never a right to do something wrong.
**What harm is done if the activity is between consenting adults? **The fact that two adults consent to an action doesn’t make it morally right or socially acceptable. The “harm” is that such reasoning leads us down a very dangerous and permissive slope to the detriment of the common good and the spiritual impoverishment of the individuals involved. After all, two consenting adults can engage in drug use, prostitution, bigamy, polygamy or other immoral activities. In other words, the determination of the morality of an action is found in the act itself and not in the consent of the people involved!

For the whole column just go here clik clik

 

[thewalrus]

Actually, if you look into what was going on with Galileo, you will discover several things.

The Pope, first of all, does not speak “ex cathedra” on matters of science.

At the time, Galileo was NOT the only one looking into a heliocentric theory. The Jesuits were also–with papal approval, I might add.

Galileo first presented his theories of heliocentrism, he did so based on lunar orbits around Jupiter. Interesting, but hardly conclusive, and the Pope insisted that Galileo, in his writings, present both sides of the argument, heliocentric and geocentric, according to all the data they currently possessed.

Galileo was offended by this, and he took the opportunity to insult the Pope personally in those writings.

This led to Galileo’s troubles.

Well, I don’t think there are many who think the Catholic Church should come out scot clean on the Galileo controversy but regardless, I’ll concede your ex cathedra point. It just seems to be mighty convenient to be able to avoid issues of science and still claim infallibility.

 

[pathia]

The person that tells an active homosexual what they do is ok and acceptable is the active homosexual’s true enemy, not a friend, for that person only cares about themself, how they feel, or how they want to be seen as(i.e. open mined ), or accepted and not the person that struggles with homosexuality. IMHO

Please note the qualifier active…

Then let me be factually honest. I am only not-active because I physically cannot. As I mentioned before, my celibacy is not a choice, I had the ability robbed from me as an infant.

Actually my view of homosexuals come from my associations with homosexuals as friends and politcal activist in which I work with on politcal justice issues over the last thirty years.

Anecdotal, just like my 20years of anecdotes.

 

[ladybri77]

Hi everyone. A friend of mine has come up with an argument for homosexual marriage that I can’t seem to defeat. He says that homosexuals should be allowed to marry because of the fact that they were born that way and also because they deserve to have romantic relationships too. He says it would be unjust to deprive them of equal rights just because they are attracted to the same sex. How do I counter this?

If you look at all the Christian literature and testimonials, you’ll find that it was never proven that gays are born that way. In fact, you’ll see much information and testimony to the contrary. This fallen world we live in and the emotional, sexual and physical abuse put on children, not to mention emotional neglect, has caused many to “feel” gay, but THEY DON’T HAVE TO ACT ON IT if they believe it’s wrong. They need to look to the root cause, emotionally, to see where they’ve been hurt in their lives and THE SOURCE (Jesus) for the answers and healing. There are many testimonials of people who have come to Christ and who have been HEALED of much of the attraction and who have fallen in love with Jesus. There are Christian/Catholic support groups for people who feel this way and find strength through them to not act out. Acting out homosexually is an illegitimate way to get legitimate needs met.

 

[thewalrus]

If you look at all the Christian literature and testimonials, you’ll find that it was never proven that gays are born that way. In fact, you’ll see much information and testimony to the contrary. This fallen world we live in and the emotional, sexual and physical abuse put on children, not to mention emotional neglect, has caused many to “feel” gay, but THEY DON’T HAVE TO ACT ON IT if they believe it’s wrong. They need to look to the root cause, emotionally, to see where they’ve been hurt in their lives and THE SOURCE (Jesus) for the answers and healing. There are many testimonials of people who have come to Christ and who have been HEALED of much of the attraction and who have fallen in love with Jesus. There are Christian/Catholic support groups for people who feel this way and find strength through them to not act out. It it an illegitimate way to get legitimate needs met.

And yet, there are testimonials of many people who were convinced by others they were healed when they really were not. Your argument simply does not work because it presumes that gay children always grow up in homes that have abuse or neglect. That is simply not the case. There are many gay children who grow up in healthy homes.

 

[Bennie_P]

Then let me be factually honest. I am only not-active because I physically cannot. As I mentioned before, my celibacy is not a choice, I had the ability robbed from me as an infant.

Anecdotal, just like my 20years of anecdotes.

Sorry you feel robbed, truly I do.

Sometimes you need to look at things outside your own experience, anecdotal or not, the question you need to ask is what do I (me Bennie) gain by seeing the world through my experience as opposed to what you are trying to gain by what you want me to see?

 

[ladybri77]

And yet, there are testimonials of many people who were convinced by others they were healed when they really were not. Your argument simply does not work because it presumes that gay children always grow up in homes that have abuse or neglect. That is simply not the case. There are many gay children who grow up in healthy homes.

You are right, there are children who grow up in seemingly “healthy” homes, but do we know for sure. Maybe it’s just rebellion pure and simple. But the people I’ve talked to, read about and from my own experience tell me the majority seem to have similar backgrounds of some kind of wrong thinking, abuse, rebellion or what have you. It seems to go back to wrong thinking (believing a lie) somewhere in the child’s life even if he didn’t have an abusive background, at some point he comes to feel this way or identifies himself as such. Either way, there is still healing through Jesus Christ.

 

[pathia]

Sorry you feel robbed, truly I do.

Sometimes you need to look at things outside your own experience, anecdotal or not, the question you need to ask is what do I (me Bennie) gain by seeing the world through my experience as opposed to what you are trying to gain by what you want me to see?

I don’t know what else you could call what was done to me but 'robbing. It was butchering surgery that left me scarred, infected and in a constant battle against liver, bladder and urinal infections throughout my entire life.

It isn’t just ‘sex’ that was robbed of me, much was robbed of me. My childhood was robbed by the therapy and my health was robbed by the butchery. I wish I knew what a normal childhood was, I really do.

I don’t want you to say your experiences are false, I don’t think you’re making them up. It just seems to only experienced one stereotype of a homosexual, while I’ve seen many other ‘types’ so to speak.

 

[Mulepadre]

I see that this thread has been going since 2005!
I have not had the chance to read all the posts so if someone has already made my point forgive me for being redundant.

Regarding being born homosexual…

I.M.H.O. homosexuality, and I am sure that others have made this point, it is simply a disordered temptation to sin. Like all temptation it can come from only three possible sources: **the world, the flesh and the devil. **

If we do not see that typically a person with homosexual tendencies has the source of their disorder in any one or in a mixture of these factors then we are bound to be in error! And if we cannot adequately understand the cause of this disorder how can we truly prescribe its remedy?

Thus if someone were to claim that they were born with the tendency to homosexuality, they very well may be telling the truth. But most likely it is a combination of one or two of these other factors as well. I have read much on this but yet to find a conclusive explanation that gives attention to all three of the factors that our Catholic Faith gives as the cause of all disordered temptation.

Let me say right off that being born a homosexual, if indeed true, does not justify them to act out that tendency or even receive God’s blessing in doing so through marriage.

How is homosexual temptation rooted in the world, flesh and the devil?
This is the subject of a research paper but let me give what I see to be the broad answers…

The Flesh
The Old Testament teaches that God will bring punishment down to the 3rd and 4th generation for the sins of those hate Him (Ex 20:5) Obviously personality and behavior disorders such as homosexuality can be, in some mysterious way, a punishment for the sins of the same members of our family tree. I do a lot of ministry in healing the family tree so I substantiate this claim with my own experience. Why God allows this is a mystery which we can only attempt to try to understand…

So someone could be truly born with some degree of disorder to no fault of their own. As well there is the possibility, and this is much more common, that a child or person is born favoring personality characteristics and mannerisms of that opposite sex without being truly attracted or having disordered desires for that opposite sex. Now this quality does, in fact, predisposes that person to the following source of temptation…

The World
Many male homosexuals speak of growing up with a male authority problem rooted in a distant or harsh, unaffirming father couples and a too emotionally dependent mother. The personality disorder that this kind of family life can be complex and sometimes very deep. But suffice it to say that many such personalities seek love from a pseudo father figure and often find that ‘false’ love in the typical predatory male homosexual type. I believe this is exactly what a pediofiiliac is, someone that prays upon “innocent” such personality types.

Again I am tracing just an outline here of what I have come to believe, but this second temptation and sin becomes the root of the last:

The Devil
Now when we commit sin we become the slaves of sin, so said Jesus. Slavery is a bondage which can be characterized in its slightest form as an oppresive temptation and to its worst form as the split personality of demonic possession. Thus when two people participate in any sinful act, especially homosexual acts, a real spiritual exchange, sharing or influence takes place to some degree(1 Cor 6:12-20) This is my personal interpretation or application of the scripture

This “sharing” is really a contamination of sorts. The demonic spirit now, because of sin, has the ‘right’ to quite a bit more access or power with which to tempt that soul to homosexual acts through their emotional/sexual faculty. And if the soul yields to continued sexual activity that demonic spirit will begin to even exert pathological changes in the both the personality and the body of the person. You will note in males changes in voice, mannerisms and even personality. In woman likewise.

So this is my humble opinion, for whatever it is worth to the cause of truth. For a homosexual to come out of this disorder (and in some it simply may not be fully possible, and Mother Church has spoken much to them) all three factors mentioned have to be considered and addressed with a remedy. Now that is for another posting…

St. Thomas, pray for us!

Fr. Michael V Hinken, SOLT