Gay marriage : who cares?

[ERose]

The Old Testament is full of things that used to be considered sins but are no longer thought of as sinful (e.g. picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week no longer carries the penalty of death). It also approves and commands acts that we now see as gravely immoral (e.g. we no longer think that we have a duty to kill homosexuals and adulterers and people who boil a lamb in its mother’s milk).

You guys keep throwing out the hypothesis that people are “born” gay as if it is scientific fact. Do research please and you find that it isn’t scientific fact but rather a hypothesis. Throwing out unsubstantiated statements does not help the argument in any way.

 

[Leela]

You guys keep throwing out the hypothesis that people are “born” gay as if it is scientific fact. Do research please and you find that it isn’t scientific fact but rather a hypothesis. Throwing out unsubstantiated statements does not help the argument in any way.

I never said that. I don’t know if people are born gay any more than they are born left-handed or born preferring chocolate over vanilla or born hating olives. The fact is that we don’t choose our preferences. We are our preferences.

If you think that you can make yourself prefer something that you don’t prefer, I suggest that you try to prove it by changing your favorite food from sushi to steak or your favorite pizza topping from pepperoni to anchovies. If it is possible with something as profound as sexual preferences it ought to be easy to do with something as trivial as food preferences. Good luck! Let me know how you do.

 

[ERose]

It’s not alright to judge gay people. The church clearly teaches we are to love them. I’m sorry your brother has had such a bad experience.

Yes we are called never to judge people. But we must also out of Christian charity to inform others of the truth and help steer them toward a righteous life. If we do not let people know how to live a righteous life, how do we expect them to know how. This does not mean to brow-beat them, but if they are willing to listen then we must be willing to tell them.

Not only that we must also understand that we are talking about children here in this experience in school. Everyone got picked on in school some more than others. Children can be evil at times and other children are picked on about all kinds of things from being too fat, too skinny, too tall, too short, having read hair, having freckles, glasses, being too poor, etc. At a very young age, children don’t know what gays are. They may know the word but they don’t have a clue. I also do not believe that a child at the age of 3 can know he/she is gay. No one at that age is sexually attacted to someone else unless there are other issues greater than the possibility of being gay. There are alot of feminine men and masculine women out there that did not become gay.

The fact of the matter is that all of us have our thorns. Some worse than others. It is the way we deal with these thorns that separate the people of this world and the people of the world to come. For those who are not truly following Christ have a “poor me” attitude while true Christians use these thorns to make them better by becoming more humble, by learning perserverance, by learning chastity. In other words build upon and develop the virtues in our life.

It is obvious that gays are born that way and we ask then, why would God make them that way and then say “don’t be that way.”

Do research on this. It isn’t obvious that people are born gay, nor is there any scientific proof that people are born gay.

It doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve struggled with this a lot. I was able to reconcile this by thinking of it as a secular thing; but the truth is, I don’t feel that way in my heart. I think God loves them and they can be His as well as any other who serves God, especially because they suffer.

Yes God loves all of us. But God calls us to be better than what we can be on our own. That is called sanctifying grace. By ourselves we are nothing more than animals, but God calls us to be something more than animals. Do you think that the Commandments were made for God? No! He established them for us. They are there for our benefit. They are guidelines to become Godlike. Animals and beasts are slaves to their lusts, we as human beings are called to become more than animals and beasts. We are called to enslave our lusts not to be slaves to our lusts.

Perhaps in the Old Testament, when homosexual acts were condemned, it was to say that it is a sin when a heterosexual man acts on lust and lays down with their own, but not including a gay man who is obviously different genetically than a man. It would be a sin for a straight man to engage in homosexual acts.

So it would be better for us to be slaves to our lusts. You really do not understand what you are called to be do you. Living Christianity means placing our spirit in charge of our body. It means to enslave our passions and not be enslaved by them.

Further, Christ never condemned gay marriage. Christ never mentioned gays and I would think that because he didn’t, it wasn’t important for Him. He spoke of adultery and the like.

Because Christ came first to the Jews, which at that time did not have problems with homosexuality as the Greeks and Romans did. It never came up so he never spoke on it. It was never ever in the minds of those during that time that gay marriage was an option. They did not have a skewed view of marriage as we do today. They knew the purpose of marriage and to them “gay-marriage” was an oxy-moron.

In the NT condemning homosexual acts is only mentioned a few times and in those cases, the translation is not gays or feminine men, but rather male prostitutes who serve older men.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. The NT explicitly teaches against homosexuality. In fact, the NT explicitly speaks against all forms of sexual conduct outside the sanctity of marriage. Again we are called to be better than animals and beasts.

I think this is a matter the Catholic Church will someday take another look into this. The Catholic Church states it is a sin to engage in homosexual acts, but not to be gay. Being gay is not a sin.

No being gay is not a sin. It is a condition. Homosexual acts are a sin just like fornication, adultery, masturbation, or any other sexual gratification outside the sanctity of marriage. No matter how much you are skewed in your understanding on this, the Catholic church cannot change its teachings on this subject. If you are having sex outside the sanctity of marriage, you live in mortal sin.

Take my words as merely my thoughts on this matter, as currently, it is a sin in the Catholic Church to engage in those acts, but this doesn’t appear to me to be one of those deal breakers from the 10 commandments.

As shown above it is a “deal breaker”. We are called to be better than that. The problem with modern thought is that we want to be relativist. We want it our way. We don’t want to go down the hard and difficult path to righteousness so we change the rules for ourselves. The problem is God doesn’t change His rules and one day we will be judged by His rules not by our rules.

 

[ERose]

I never said that. I don’t know if people are born gay any more than they are born left-handed or born preferring chocolate over vanilla or born hating olives. The fact is that we don’t choose our preferences. We are our preferences.

If you think that you can make yourself prefer something that you don’t prefer, I suggest that you try to prove it by changing your favorite food from sushi to steak or your favorite pizza topping from pepperoni to anchovies. If it is possible with something as profound as sexual preferences it ought to be easy to do with something as trivial as food preferences. Good luck! Let me know how you do.

Wrong, we can change our preferences. We can change any aspect about ourselves if we want to enough. I know that there is this popular saying out there that “people don’t change”. I say this is the biggest bull****. We change throughout our lives. My tastes today are not the same as when I was younger. In fact I will even to as far to say that I am no where near the same man as I was 10-15 years ago. Preferences can be changed, desires can be changed, attractions can be changed. Some are hard to do no doubt as any former alcholic, drug addict, sex addict, etc and they will tell you the same thing.

I would say that Christianity is based upon us making changes to our core selves. In fact I would call it a requirement of being a true Christian.

 

[Seeker2010]

If you are not monogamous you are not committed to each other.

Codswallop. You speak on matters of which you have no knowledge or experience. I’d put our relationship up against yours or anyone else’s any day of the week.

Once the covenant is made it cannot be broken. It is a holy and sacred thing and represents love between one man and one woman just as one God loves His bride (His Church).

Sex is not a ‘covenant’. And while God may not be cheating on the church, it seems the church has a predilection of cheating on God… with little boys no less.

 

[davidv]

Codswallop. You speak on matters of which you have no knowledge or experience. I’d put our relationship up against yours or anyone else’s any day of the week.

Right back at you.

I don’t have to experience cancer to know it is not a good thing. I don’t have commit adultery to know that it would be a serious problem for my wife and children. Any comparison of relationships is irrelevant to what is moral.

Sex is not a ‘covenant’. And while God may not be cheating on the church, it seems the church has a predilection of cheating on God… with little boys no less.

Sex is just sex, a physical expression.

Marriage is a covenant to be honored.

 

[edwest2]

The motivation of Prop *8 may or may not be hatred of gays, but it is patently obvious to me that is is NOT rooted in a reasoned and reasonable interpretation of Catholic theology. Not when people blithely dismiss or shrilly condemn the same degree of objective evil based solely on the gender of the people perpetrating the evil.

I also don’t put too much stock in Tom Jefferson’s notion of inerrant public opinion. The acceptance of slavery and the divine right of kings was also “universal” since the creation of the human race.

Catholic theology tells us the following:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

God bless,
Ed

 

[Seeker2010]

I’d like to hear an advocate in this forum for homosexual marriage declare his support, or lack of support, for incestuous marriage. And please give a rationale.

I’ve heard the slippery slope argument used against gay marriage, and I just don’t get it. I bet if you had access to infinite knowledge, you’d learn that there’s only a handful of people in the entire nation that have a serious desire to marry incestuously so I doubt there’s going to be much clamor for it.

That said, I’ve heard the argument of genetic defects amongst siblings is perhaps not as strong as we’ve been led to believe.

Therefore, even though the idea skeeves me out, I cannot stand opposed to incestuous marriage, just because it skeeves me out doesn’t give me the right to demand that others live their lives in ways I find non-skeevy.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Leela
*
The Old Testament is full of things that used to be considered sins but are no longer thought of as sinful (e.g. picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week no longer carries the penalty of death). It also approves and commands acts that we now see as gravely immoral (e.g. we no longer think that we have a duty to kill homosexuals and adulterers and people who boil a lamb in its mother’s milk). *

C’mon, Leela.

You know that homosexual acts are condemned in the NT as well as the OT. Jesus used Sodom as the example of a city that was punished. Paul makes it very clear that sodomy is a mortal sin. If you don’t know this, you should, because you are passing yourself off as an authority on the New Testament, aren’t you?

 

[Seeker2010]

I don’t have commit adultery to know that it would be a serious problem for my wife and children.

Sexual activity with someone other than your spouse when all involved are fully consenting is not adultery. And just because it would be a problem for your wife and children does not mean it is a problem for others. I can assure you from personal experience that it is not.

Sex is just sex, a physical expression.

Bingo! You win the gold star.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Seeker

*Therefore, even though the idea skeeves me out, I cannot stand opposed to incestuous marriage, just because it skeeves me out doesn’t give me the right to demand that others live their lives in ways I find non-skeevy. *

Ah, well then you are an enemy to your own common sense!

 

[Rose27]

There an awful lot of “I thinks” in this thread. The Pope has made clear statements on this issue and if you are Catholic you can think whatever you want, but you must believe the teachings of the Church. Let your reason follow your faith, not the other way around.

That being said, this is a teaching I have a difficult time with. I accept it as being the superior judgment and struggle to understand it. Here are some of the thoughts I have had in the course of this struggle.

“Thou shall not commit adultery”
This commandment isn’t only about cheating on your wife or husband. It is about all non-marital sex and sexual acts and that would include any homosexual actions. Our understanding of this commandment has evolved over time thanks to the direct teachings of Jesus and the continued instruction of the Holy Spirit. Consider that it was given to a people who practiced polygamy, an action we would now call adultery.

While this commandment has grown to encompass more things theologically, it has been chipped away to almost nothing civilly. The same thing is happening with other commandments, notably thou shall not kill. Hence abortion and euthanasia. The effects that this diminishment has are far greater than just allowing sinners to be sinners.

Yes, Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar’s. So we must all pay our taxes even if they are collected by evil men for evil purposes, but Caesar did not have public schools. He did not have anti-discrimination policies and he did not have a child protective service agency. This is not to say that we should not have those things (that’s another question for another time). What I’m getting at is that today’s government is involved in far more aspects of our lives than in Jesus’ time. It is involved in how we educate our children, in how we conduct our businesses, and in how we raise our families. Its policies should therefore concern us very much more. We can no longer just pay our taxes so that the emperor lets us be to live our lives for Christ when that emperor is saying how, where, and when we might be allowed to live that life.

The civil and cultural acceptance of homosexuality outside of the Church, which even includes many of our Protestant brothers and sister, makes it very much harder for us to live as serious Catholics and to teach our children to do the same. You might think a person either is or is not gay, and that may be partly true, but it doesn’t mean that being exposed to homosexuality does not increase your chances of committing homosexual acts. We should no more be accepting of our children spending time with practicing homosexual, whether or not they consider themselves to be married, than we should accept them spending time with fornicators and pornographers.

Lastly, as many of you have pointed out, the focus on homosexuality at the exclusion of the other types of adultery is indefensible. Since most Catholics do not suffer from the temptation of homosexual desires it is very much a case of seeking to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye. So, although it is clearly our duty as Catholics to oppose gay marriage and to defend ourselves against the onslaught of homosexual imagery, we should be even more vigilant against heterosexual sins of the flesh. We should be doing everything we can to encourage abstinence, to promote natural family planning, to highlight the sacramental nature of true marriage and to prevent divorce. Consider the people in your own life. I’m sure you know someone who is not living a pure sexual life. You may even find him or her in the mirror. Pray for them, talk to them, admonish them and pray for them some more.

God bless.

 

[Leela]

Leela
*
The Old Testament is full of things that used to be considered sins but are no longer thought of as sinful (e.g. picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week no longer carries the penalty of death). It also approves and commands acts that we now see as gravely immoral (e.g. we no longer think that we have a duty to kill homosexuals and adulterers and people who boil a lamb in its mother’s milk). *

C’mon, Leela.

You know that homosexual acts are condemned in the NT as well as the OT. Jesus used Sodom as the example of a city that was punished. Paul makes it very clear that sodomy is a mortal sin. If you don’t know this, you should, because you are passing yourself off as an authority on the New Testament, aren’t you?

Nope. I’m just pointing out that the Bible says a lot of things, and Christians don’t take them all seriously. Why should we take it seriously on homosexuality when we recognize that we have vastly different views on gender roles in general today and not just on same sex attraction? We spare the rod, we don’t think it is okay to have slaves, we don’t think that women are subservient to their husbands. We even wear clothes with two different kinds of fabric.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You are reading into what he said something I could not read in it.

What I read in that post is that a person who admonished another poster for speaking about divorce because this thread is about gay marriage (see post #123) brought up adult bookstores, pornographers, cohabitation, intellectuals, radicals and anarchists, topless bars, strip clubs, how the term “stripper” became “exotic dancer,” TV shows, and divorce.

It is either a diatribe or a smokescreen and not a very good one at that. There is a lot of undefined “they” and “we” and Catholics are dumped into one group.

I would like to know what all this has to do with gay marriage. Do homosexuals who want to marry go to adult bookstores, see strippers (I doubt that gay men pay money to see female strippers), are immersed in pornography, etc…?

It doesn’t make sense to me, on a common sense level. I’m sure there are homosexuals who are into pornography, just like heterosexuals. But it seems to me that homosexuals who want to get married are in love with each other, just like heterosexuals who want to get married.

The only lesbian couple I know who have formed a life together as a family appear to be in love with each other. They adopted a boy who seems to be getting along just fine. They have bought a house, they are professionals (one is a college professor), and I guess I’m still struggling with whether what they are doing is sinning. Granted, I don’t see them that often and I don’t live with them so things could be going on that I don’t know about. But I am fairly certain they are not into pornography, do not pay to see strippers, and I don’t believe they go to topless bars.

There is a problem in my mind. I believe that all love is good and I wonder why homosexual love is not considered appropriate. This is something I thought I had resolved, but I haven’t and will be thinking about this a lot in the coming months.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Codswallop. You speak on matters of which you have no knowledge or experience. I’d put our relationship up against yours or anyone else’s any day of the week.

You don’t need to. My relationship is over and cannot be resumed under any conditions. Why do you feel it necessary to say I have no knowledge or experience? I have both. I have been married to a person I loved so, so much and I will miss for the rest of my life.

Is this some sort of contest? Your relationship against mine? Your relationship against other people’s relationships? Why are you turning this into something it isn’t? If you want to sway me to your position your language and tone will simply not work. If you presented your ideas in a charitable way I would be more apt to listen and consider what you say. Right now all I can see is anger and disgust at me for something - I don’t know what I did to offend you.

Sex is not a ‘covenant’. And while God may not be cheating on the church, it seems the church has a predilection of cheating on God… with little boys no less.

You are correct. Sex is not a covenant. Did you see me saying that sex is a convenant in any post I’ve written? On this thread or any thread I have ever posted on since being a member of CAF? I never said that!

Marriage is a covenant.

The Church does not cheat on God. Sinners who are Catholic have been known to cheat on God, just as sinners who are Baptist, Methodist, Buddhist, Muslim, Wiccan, agnostic, and atheist. If the Church cheated on God that would show that the gates of hell had prevailed against her which would turn Jesus into a liar. Men in authority in Boy Scout camps molest little boys. Men on the beach take little boys into the restrooms and molest them. Molesting little boys (or girls or any person of any age) is a horrible thing to do but it certainly is not limited to people who call themselves Catholic.

I’m not surprised that you brought this up. It usually shows up when someone is very angry at the Church for some reason.

Have you ever done anything wrong? Have you ever done anything that would be considered a sin by the Church? I am a sinner. I sin a lot. But God and His Church offer me forgiveness.

I don’t think this will matter to you but I love you as a child of God and I am travelling a hard road right now. Please don’t make it worse. You don’t need to be angry at me. I’m not worth it.

 

[edwest2]

I’ve heard the slippery slope argument used against gay marriage, and I just don’t get it. I bet if you had access to infinite knowledge, you’d learn that there’s only a handful of people in the entire nation that have a serious desire to marry incestuously so I doubt there’s going to be much clamor for it.

That said, I’ve heard the argument of genetic defects amongst siblings is perhaps not as strong as we’ve been led to believe.

Therefore, even though the idea skeeves me out, I cannot stand opposed to incestuous marriage, just because it skeeves me out doesn’t give me the right to demand that others live their lives in ways I find non-skeevy.

Polyamory being proposed in Canada right now:

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/sep/10091504.html

I would not encourage you to look but the Man Boy Love Association is making noise as well.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Nope. I’m just pointing out that the Bible says a lot of things, and Christians don’t take them all seriously. Why should we take it seriously on homosexuality when we recognize that we have vastly different views on gender roles in general today and not just on same sex attraction? We spare the rod, we don’t think it is okay to have slaves, we don’t think that women are subservient to their husbands. We even wear clothes with two different kinds of fabric.

If you’re not Catholic, or Christian, why should what people write on a Catholic forum concern you? I have no interest in what Mormons, for example, do, and so I don’t go to any Mormon forums.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Little Soldier

I believe that all love is good and I wonder why homosexual love is not considered appropriate. This is something I thought I had resolved, but I haven’t and will be thinking about this a lot in the coming months.

All love is good. Even homosexual love is good. The question is whether you can have love for another man without defiling his body and yours. Yes you can. Men can live together, and so can women … with the greatest love possible between them. Nobody minds that. But sex between them is unnatural, and should not be sanctioned by law any more than sex between brother and sister, mother and son, father and daughter should be sanctioned by law.

Actions have consequences. Aids is one such consequence of homosexual sex. Thousands of American men and women have died terrible deaths for lack of common sense. All kinds of sexual diseases are contracted by heterosexuals too when they frequent streetwalkers or just sleep around. More defiance of common sense.

The purpose of love is to be good to each other, not risk each other’s health or lives with self destructive behavior.

 

[Seeker2010]

Why do you feel it necessary to say I have no knowledge or experience? I have both.

You stated that our consensual lack of physical monogamy in our relationship meant we were not committed to each other. This is not only not true, it offended me. What I meant was you have no experience with relationships that include consensual non-monogamy (which, in fairness, is an assumption on my part, but one I believe is accurate) therefore you cannot possibly know and understand that it is perfectly compatible with a real commitment.

I have been married to a person I loved so, so much and I will miss for the rest of my life.

I am sorry for your loss. I hope you’ll be able to move on and find happiness.

Is this some sort of contest? Your relationship against mine? Your relationship against other people’s relationships?

Again, you stated as though it were undebatable fact that non-monogamous relationships are, seemingly by definition, incapable of commitment. My remark was meant to show that your assertion was simply untrue, and I used my (amazing) marriage as an example. You, of course, don’t know me and don’t know my marriage, but unless you are prepared to call me a liar, you’ll have to trust when I say it is one of the best I’ve ever witnessed. Despite our non-conventional sex lives.

You are correct. Sex is not a covenant. Did you see me saying that sex is a convenant in any post I’ve written?

Not directly, but your implication (at least as interpreted by me) was that any ‘proscribed’ sexual activity violated a covenant.

I’m not surprised that you brought this up. It usually shows up when someone is very angry at the Church for some reason.

No anger, though I find the church to be extremely arrogant. WE have THE answers and anything that we say is wrong, is wrong. I say they spend WAY to much time worrying about what the rest of us are doing with our genitals whilst simultaneously sweeping their own ‘genital behavior problem’ under the rug. I find it amazing hypocritical.

Have you ever done anything wrong? Have you ever done anything that would be considered a sin by the Church? I am a sinner. I sin a lot. But God and His Church offer me forgiveness.

Of course I have. I’m human, and none amongst us is perfect. I believe in God, but not the God the church represents. That’s a mean, spiteful, vicious, jealous little creature, and the actions and threats associated with that version of God are not those of a loving creator.

I don’t think this will matter to you but I love you as a child of God and I am travelling a hard road right now. Please don’t make it worse. You don’t need to be angry at me. I’m not worth it.

While what you said offended me, I am no now (nor was I when I first read it) angry with you. I am very, very slow to anger, it’s extremely unlikely you could do so on a semi-anonymous message board like this, unless you really tried. And then you’d know, in no uncertain terms, that I was angry.

I wish you luck with your troubles, as I joined the ranks of America’s unemployed last week, I have some of my own.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Leela

Nope. I’m just pointing out that the Bible says a lot of things, and Christians don’t take them all seriously. Why should we take it seriously on homosexuality when we recognize that we have vastly different views on gender roles in general today and not just on same sex attraction? We spare the rod, we don’t think it is okay to have slaves, we don’t think that women are subservient to their husbands. We even wear clothes with two different kinds of fabric.

The whole presumption of that paragraph is that what may have been true once, is no longer true. No. The resistance to truth is what changes old truths into new truths that contradict the old truths. The latest fad is the truth? That should be your motto for moral relativism. Leela, you are perhaps one of the most famous relativists at Catholic Answers. Your arguments have been refuted several times, but you seem to think that by repeating them often enough they will take hold.

It’s true that some Catholics have indeed become relativists like yourself, but I don’t think you’ll find many of them here. You will have better luck peddling relativism in the classroom or the print media than you will have in this forum.