Gay Marriage

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Melek

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A fellow Christian once told me this: “I am a Christian, and I will support gay rights, as my Bible teaches tolerance and acceptance; it teaches love and compassion; it doesn’t teach bigotry and hatred.”

I always thought that Catholicism is against homosexual acts. Homosexual love and desire are not sins but engaging in sex would be an act against God. What about gay marriage? Would that be a homosexual act and should Catholics be opposed to that?

Furthermore, we are not to judge others. Only God can judge us. Therefore wouldn’t us taking away rights from homosexuals be a sin? Afterall, it’s their problem and they are the ones who must repent for committing homosexual acts.
 
Melek said:
A fellow Christian once told me this: “I am a Christian, and I will support gay rights, as my Bible teaches tolerance and acceptance; it teaches love and compassion; it doesn’t teach bigotry and hatred.”

I always thought that Catholicism is against homosexual acts. Homosexual love and desire are not sins but engaging in sex would be an act against God. What about gay marriage? Would that be a homosexual act and should Catholics be opposed to that?

Furthermore, we are not to judge others. Only God can judge us. Therefore wouldn’t us taking away rights from homosexuals be a sin? Afterall, it’s their problem and they are the ones who must repent for committing homosexual acts.
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Your premise (and that of your friend) is wrong)Poeple who enage in homosexual beahvior are not dedied any rights that are available to all americans regardless of race gneder or country of national origin. It is not an act of love, tolerance or compassion to affirm and accept peoples sinful behavior.
 
Here we go again. The church is firmly against same sex marriage. But the church changes. Selecting biblical authority is futile in light of the other biblical authority that, for instance, suggests killing your wife if you discover she is not a virgin. We must rely on the church for faith & morals, but we can pray that love and maturity will prevail. This is where folks start googling the Canon . . .

But seriously, we must error on the side of compassion. Yes, we must let the spiritual mercies inform our thinking. But we must welcome everyone. I go to 6am mass. Seems to me that we need to be truly welcoming. Not saying Father should get up on Sunday and say, “gay is okay,” but it is my experience that gay Catholics are really faithful, honest, excited about Christ & generally good people. We should try somehow to welcome them in the context of our great faith.
 
I think your friend should read this passage: Fraternal Correction

In just the same way, it is not the will of your heavenly Father that one of these little ones be lost. 15 11 "If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. 18 15 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
and

Love is not tolerance

BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN****Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.
Code: 
http://www.catholiceducation.org/images/authos/Sheen8.JPG  *Christian love bears evil, but  it does not tolerate it. *
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
*The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. *
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
*The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom. *
*Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth. *
*Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. *
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.
 
buffalo said:
and

Love is not tolerance

BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN****Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.
Code: 
http://www.catholiceducation.org/images/authos/Sheen8.JPG  *Christian love bears evil, but  it does not tolerate it. *
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
*The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. *
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
*The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom. *
*Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth. *
*Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. *
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.
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NICE. No, God is love.
 
It’s not so much that we’re against gay marriage; it’s that there is no such THING. Your friend has an incorrect notion of what marriage is. It is not a contract between two people who love each other. It is a sacramental covenant between two people whose bodies are, by design, meant for each other to love, and love in such a way that life can result. I suspect our culture which embraces contraception has clouded his understanding of the natural link between “love-giving” and “life-giving.”

That natural link does not exist in homosexuals, so it cannot even a marriage to begin with. (Since someone will ask: a man or woman who is infertile does not render a marriage invalid, because their bodies are designed to go together. There is a physical abnormality in the way, yet it is still a marriage.)
 
Melek said:
A fellow Christian once told me this: “I am a Christian, and I will support gay rights, as my Bible teaches tolerance and acceptance; it teaches love and compassion; it doesn’t teach bigotry and hatred.”
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I am a Catholic, and I will support human rights. Everyone has a right to work, own a house, etc. Marriage is not a right (in my opinion) but a religious event.

Your Christian friend is right about what the Bible says, but that is not all the Bible says. Also, Catholics do not listen the Bible alone.
I always thought that Catholicism is against homosexual acts. Homosexual love and desire are not sins but engaging in sex would be an act against God. What about gay marriage? Would that be a homosexual act and should Catholics be opposed to that?
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Catholicism supports every sinner. Every sinner is called to repentance. You are partially correct about the “love and desire” part. Being a Homosexual is not a sin. Having Lustful thoughts is a sin for everyone, whether they be same sex or opposite sex.

Gay Marriage though would be equivalent to an alcoholic who wants to be a bartender. Besides the fact that the marriage could never be valid, Catholics are opposed to gay marriage because it would create the constant “occasion” for sin, which needs to be avoided by everyone at all times.

Notice, this does not only apply to homosexuals, but to all people. If I was attracted to a co-worker, it would be in my best interest to distance myself from them.
Furthermore, we are not to judge others. Only God can judge us. Therefore wouldn’t us taking away rights from homosexuals be a sin? Afterall, it’s their problem and they are the ones who must repent for committing homosexual acts.
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Not entirely true. We are not to judge the state of someone’s soul, but we called to judge people’s actions. This is especially true for those people who may not be aware they are even sinning to begin with.

We can not stop someone from sinning, but that does not mean we should make it easier for them either. The reason I think we should not allow gay marriage is because it is a religious event, and in fact the government should have never got involved with marriages in the first place.

As Christians we should pray for all people, because we are all sinners.
 
The church never has to marry gays. So what is the problem?

Its just a straw man argument.

The church does enough to make catholic gays feel unworthy, let the marriage issue go and focus on the important stuff like abortion.

Jesus was a lot more concerned with real issues and feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and healing the sick.

Peace
 
portarica said:
The church never has to marry gays. So what is the problem?

Its just a straw man argument.

The church does enough to make catholic gays feel unworthy, let the marriage issue go and focus on the important stuff like abortion.

Jesus was a lot more concerned with real issues and feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and healing the sick.

Peace
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Portarica,
It’s not an either/or issue. Those with homosexual attraction are not “unworthy”; they are our brothers and sisters and have dignity in their very personhood. But that doesn’t change facts about homosexual behavior. The Church doesn’t marry gays and no one else can either. It’s not because we are imposing our awful religious rules on others, but it’s because there can be no marriage between gays – by definition.

I would also say that abortion would be much less of a problem if society had a better idea of what marriage is and how it is connected to life, not merely pleasure.
 
You need to differentiate the term marriage, on the religious side you will never see the Catholic Church accept SSM, tolerance may change but I just cannot see a new definition of a sacrament.

Then there is the civil side, this is a gray area and one that is hard to argue against on a few sides. 1st being that Marriage is a Constitutionally protected right as defined by our Supreme Court, there are numerous cases and also other Constitutional clauses that can back up SSM. 2nd is civil marriage allows for adultery, which is a serious sin, one that was spoken by Christ Himself numerous times throughout the Gospels. So why is it ok to allow for one grave sin and not another? They are both sins against Nature, so presented in this light we are being bigoted IMHO.
 
To portarica -

There is no such thing as marriage between people of the same sex. The Church teaches fornication is wrong. Any sexual act outside of marriage is wrong. Single heterosexual Catholics are called to celibacy unless they find a wife or husband. I dated a woman who was bisexual until she gave her life to Christ.

When I worked in health care, there were no questions about sexual orientation. I certainly didn’t ask. So now that a situation has been created for a marriage-like arrangement for people of the same sex, it has to be said that the biology is just not compatible. I have male friends that I love but sexuality never enters the picture.

No one is perfect. God knows I’m not, but we need to understand what is right and what is wrong and live our lives as best we can.

Hope this helps,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
To portarica -

There is no such thing as marriage between people of the same sex. The Church teaches fornication is wrong. Any sexual act outside of marriage is wrong. Single heterosexual Catholics are called to celibacy unless they find a wife or husband. I dated a woman who was bisexual until she gave her life to Christ.

When I worked in health care, there were no questions about sexual orientation. I certainly didn’t ask. So now that a situation has been created for a marriage-like arrangement for people of the same sex, it has to be said that the biology is just not compatible. I have male friends that I love but sexuality never enters the picture.

No one is perfect. God knows I’m not, but we need to understand what is right and what is wrong and live our lives as best we can.

Hope this helps,
Ed
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So?

If we as catholics live our lives in married bliss. And gay catholics will not be married in the church what harm is done to us if gay people get married outside the church?

Keeping in mind that their even active gay behavior is generally legal. Except in enlightened places like Uganda or where the Islamics rule.

Peace
 
portarica said:
So?

If we as catholics live our lives in married bliss. And gay catholics will not be married in the church what harm is done to us if gay people get married outside the church?

Keeping in mind that their even active gay behavior is generally legal. Except in enlightened places like Uganda or where the Islamics rule.

Peace
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Legality does not equate to morality.

What would that world be if there were only males? Our bodies are not made to blend with each other. Now, male and female is such a different story.

There are many commands in the Bible. The one command that most people understand is the one about being fruitful and multiplying. This only happens in a marriage. Two men or two women, well… it just ain’t happening! :nope:

Marriage should be free, total, fruitful and faithful. (This is not my idea, but JP II’s)

God bless
 
Highwayhound said:
Legality does not equate to morality.

What would that world be if there were only males? Our bodies are not made to blend with each other. Now, male and female is such a different story.

There are many commands in the Bible. The one command that most people understand is the one about being fruitful and multiplying. This only happens in a marriage. Two men or two women, well… it just ain’t happening! :nope:

Marriage should be free, total, fruitful and faithful. (This is not my idea, but JP II’s)

God bless
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If the Church will not marry a gay couple, that’s fine; they have an unfettered right to tell their members what the conditions must be for marriage in the church. But if a gay couple want a civil marriage, who cares? Doesn’t affect anyone but the married couple, so it should be of no one’s business other then the couple getting married.

Its great to quote passages from the Bible regarding marriage, etc, but remember not everyone believes in God or at least the God we believe in.
 
gamewell45 said:
If the Church will not marry a gay couple, that’s fine; they have an unfettered right to tell their members what the conditions must be for marriage in the church. But if a gay couple want a civil marriage, who cares? Doesn’t affect anyone but the married couple, so it should be of no one’s business other then the couple getting married.

Its great to quote passages from the Bible regarding marriage, etc, but remember not everyone believes in God or at least the God we believe in.
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and that there are a whole lot of other laws in it. I wonder how many people keep up with the rest of the Lev laws?
 
gamewell45 said:
If the Church will not marry a gay couple, that’s fine; they have an unfettered right to tell their members what the conditions must be for marriage in the church. But if a gay couple want a civil marriage, who cares? Doesn’t affect anyone but the married couple, so it should be of no one’s business other then the couple getting married.
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You are correct, the Church does not have the right to force people to do anything.

But, the shoe is actually on the other foot. It is the world trying to tell the Church what the definition of marriage is.

Like it or not, the Church has been the moral compass of this world for 2000 years. The Bible was the moral compass for the men that founded this nation. I look at society and wonder how different it would be if Contraception, Divorce, and Abortion had not been allowed? I think that our society would value life more and value marriage more. Unfortunately, man turned away from God’s laws.

Regardless, it is society’s role to protect it’s citizens. You say it should be no ones business other than the couple getting married. Should it be no ones business if someone wants to do drugs? We have lots of laws prohibiting that kind of behavior. Should it be no ones business if a husband is abusing his wife, but she doesn’t want to leave because she loves him (and claims he loves her)?

The claim is made that allowing Gay Marriage will not hurt anyone. Can this be verified? Reminds me of the claim that contraception and divorce will not hurt anyone, but hindsight is 20/20. Also, religious people argue that gay marriage would be putting the souls of those people in danger.

Even if we can prove that it will not hurt anyone, is that a reason to allow it? The American Psychology Association list all kinds of disorders which to not harm anyone, yet they treat them. Or what about Polygamy, Cannibalism, Bestiality, or any number of things which we could show do not hurt anyone?

Homosexuality has to be one of the most painful burdens for people to carry, especially over the last 20 years were we have one part of society saying it is normal and okay, and another part saying it is not and a large part not knowing what to think. But we should not make decisions based on emotions.
 
gamewell45 said:
If the Church will not marry a gay couple, that’s fine; they have an unfettered right to tell their members what the conditions must be for marriage in the church. But if a gay couple want a civil marriage, who cares? Doesn’t affect anyone but the married couple, so it should be of no one’s business other then the couple getting married.

Its great to quote passages from the Bible regarding marriage, etc, but remember not everyone believes in God or at least the God we believe in.
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This post is also meant for Portarica…

You are trying to separate morality from legality. There are some situations where that is fine (such as where to place a stop sign). But not with marriage. To see why, let’s approach this question from two angles:
First, if you believe in the civil form of gay “marriage,” then logically you should be fine with a marriage between two siblings (of either sex) or between three or four people, right? You stated above that it “doesn’t affect anyone but the married couple.” Yet most people aren’t willing to say that (yet!) because they realize that sex has something to do with marriage. And sex is biologically and morally ingrained with the function of procreation (this is the critical point that our culture and most Protestants fail to see, which leads them to be in favor with homosexual unions).

Next, let’s pursue the historical reason for civil marriages. Why would a government be in the business of recognizing marriages in the first place? Because it recognizes that the fruit of marriage is children, and the government feels obligated to protect that child. Please think about this. If you say that a civil marriage is just for legal purposes such as shared benefits or establishing a legal heir, then we’re right back to the first angle presented above.
 
portarica said:
So?

If we as catholics live our lives in married bliss. And gay catholics will not be married in the church what harm is done to us if gay people get married outside the church?

Keeping in mind that their even active gay behavior is generally legal. Except in enlightened places like Uganda or where the Islamics rule.

Peace
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Does the fact that sodomy which was illegal, was politicked to be made legal make it right?
 
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