Gay Marriage

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Sorry I just didn’t want some poster to think I want the Catholic Church to all of a sudden bless these unions, but they should bless the individual as Catholics. I see the unions as a legal issue.
well if it was a genuine civil union for those wishing to live together the church would not have a need to bless anyone. It’s a civil issue and not a religious issue. It would not be a marriage because a true civil union arrangement would be open to anyone, siblings, parent/child/ and multiples. I’m all for that. I’d love to have a ‘civil union’ with my elderly mother. She’d save a fortune on medical insurance as I could put her on my plan. I’d get a nice tax deduction because I could claim her as a dependent. Not to mention how easy it would get my inheritance.
 
Neckonecro - I’ve enjoyed reading your very thoughtful posts and find myself agreeing with almost all of your points’ especially the last one! Welcome to these forums and please continue your postings - we all learn from each other. 😃
👍👍👍
 
Well good for those gay couples that are willing to love, feed, and care for a abandoned child. It makes me sick to hear some of the things being said on this site with such moral snobbery.
My suspicion is that the moral snobbery is being read into the posts rather than it being a motivating factor for those who have posted in the thread.

Think of another situation, similar to a previous one I proposed, but to which you did not answer.

If it is merely a question of caring for children, why is it that gay couples are the best remedy for the children “abandoned” to the adoption system? Why not threesomes and foursomes? Obviously, these would have more resources, time and emotional commitment available to provide for the child(ren) than a mere couple would. Why not advocate for polyamorous or even loose affiliations of people to care for adopted children? Chance alone would dictate that children adopted into those situations would be more likely to be cared for.

Which takes us full circle to why the government set up child welfare departments to begin with - that society as a whole would better look after children than their own derelict parents have. Unfortunately, child welfare agencies have generally been better than abusive or neglectful parents, but that does not translate to “optimal” care.

It may be that some pairings or groupings might look after children better than their own parents have, but that, in itself, is not an argument for these situations to replace or be included in the definition of “marriage” which is what your argument amounts to. It simply fails, however, because it is possible to find threesomes and foursomes who might better provide for children than gay couples, but that is not a reason to call these “marriages” either.
 
My suspicion is that the moral snobbery is being read into the posts rather than it being a motivating factor for those who have posted in the thread.

Think of another situation, similar to a previous one I proposed, but to which you did not answer.

If it is merely a question of caring for children, why is it that gay couples are the best remedy for the children “abandoned” to the adoption system? Why not threesomes and foursomes? Obviously, these would have more resources, time and emotional commitment available to provide for the child(ren) than a mere couple would. Why not advocate for polyamorous or even loose affiliations of people to care for adopted children? Chance alone would dictate that children adopted into those situations would be more likely to be cared for.

Again, you are looking for an “optimal” situation, which in perfect world would be best; however, we do not live in a perfect world and their are too many children with out homes. I didn’t say gay couple were the best remedy, I said they could be A remedy if a child cannot be with parents, grandparents, family. Of course, those should all be considered first, but I have been speaking of those in foster care or those with no family.

It may be that some pairings or groupings might look after children better than their own parents have, but that, in itself, is not an argument for these situations to replace or be included in the definition of “marriage” which is what your argument amounts to. It simply fails, however, because it is possible to find threesomes and foursomes who might better provide for children than gay couples, but that is not a reason to call these “marriages” either.
Again, NEVER said they should be called marriages or blessed as marriages by the Church, OR the the Church should changes its beliefs in this matter. I have only spoken about legal civil unions. BTW, we do have threesomes, foursome, etc. taking care of children in this world. They are the children of many married men and women who send there children to boarding school. I live within walking distance of one of the top girls boarding schools in the country where girls from all over the world live and go to school (some year round) at the cost of $40,000 a year. Now those girls have a mother and a father, do they have the “optimal” situation?
 
Again, NEVER said they should be called marriages or blessed as marriages by the Church, OR the the Church should changes its beliefs in this matter. I have only spoken about legal civil unions. BTW, we do have threesomes, foursome, etc. taking care of children in this world. They are the children of many married men and women who send there children to boarding school. I live within walking distance of one of the top girls boarding schools in the country where girls from all over the world live and go to school (some year round) at the cost of $40,000 a year. Now those girls have a mother and a father, do they have the “optimal” situation?
Since this thread is about “gay marriage” and you seem to have argued that gay couples ought to be accorded the same civil title (not merely civil union,) I assumed your points related specifically in support of gay “marriage.”

I don’t have the time to go back through your posts at this moment, but that is the impression you have given.

Are you, then, not in support of calling gay coupleship, “marriages?”
 
Yup, you are mistaken.
I’m actually not, I merely didn’t list as many as you have. Please, do check that link and read.

I’ve done some further reading and it seems I was wrong about Augustine however, he too was for a literal interpretation of Genesis.
 
I stand by my post***. If people desire to foolishly try to change what God had commanded thinking it will somehow actually work…this time…let them. ***It will not change anything and they will be very sorrowful one day for their actions. As for the distracting diatribe you provided, it also changes nothing. God spoke and unless He makes a change, it remains the same no matter how many times a persons says differently to convince their self.
Very well then! Let us return all the women to their confinement in their homes, let us force them to wear burqas for their modesty. Let’s prevent women serving at the altar and force them to remain silent. Oh, of course, we have to sack all the female teachers as well. After all, by the words of St Paul (where our condemnation of Homosexuality is strongest and still a tedious translation) they too are an abomination before God.

We must also send ships to Africa to subject the heathens to slavery, for by the Papal States holy standard they are nothing more than tools for our personal use on Galleys or servants.

Now, are you that twisted and ancient in your thoughts to think for one single moment any of this is ok? Because lest we forget, these activities are all endorsed, indeed in many cases demanded by sacred tradition and scripture. (After all, the place of women is one of the reasons the SSPX views the Catholic Church as heretical, if anything they’re probably closer to tradition).

God spoke to us 2000 years ago, and the world has changed dramatically since that time. Some parts of the message, such as to love and to serve one another are relevant in every age and time. Others such as to demand the total and absolute subjugation of women have no place in our enlightened age, we have become wiser, indeed more moral since then. Perhaps when the world was ravaged by diseases and high child mortality there was a valid reason to prevent homosexuality, or perhaps if the translation (Effeminate not homosexual which I’m unsure of myself but is irrelevant really) is indeed wrong it was legitimate for that time. But there is no sensible sane reason anymore when we compare to other (arguably more appealing to previous standards) developments over time.

If Gods will hasn’t changed on this matter, but you are not willing to carry out the full demands then you too are a heretic.
 
Very well then! Let us return all the women to their confinement in their homes, let us force them to wear burqas for their modesty. Let’s prevent women serving at the altar and force them to remain silent. Oh, of course, we have to sack all the female teachers as well. After all, by the words of St Paul (where our condemnation of Homosexuality is strongest and still a tedious translation) they too are an abomination before God.

We must also send ships to Africa to subject the heathens to slavery, for by the Papal States holy standard they are nothing more than tools for our personal use on Galleys or servants.

Now, are you that twisted and ancient in your thoughts to think for one single moment any of this is ok? Because lest we forget, these activities are all endorsed, indeed in many cases demanded by sacred tradition and scripture. (After all, the place of women is one of the reasons the SSPX views the Catholic Church as heretical, if anything they’re probably closer to tradition).

God spoke to us 2000 years ago, and the world has changed dramatically since that time. Some parts of the message, such as to love and to serve one another are relevant in every age and time. Others such as to demand the total and absolute subjugation of women have no place in our enlightened age, we have become wiser, indeed more moral since then. Perhaps when the world was ravaged by diseases and high child mortality there was a valid reason to prevent homosexuality, or perhaps if the translation (Effeminate not homosexual which I’m unsure of myself but is irrelevant really) is indeed wrong it was legitimate for that time. But there is no sensible sane reason anymore when we compare to other (arguably more appealing to previous standards) developments over time.

If Gods will hasn’t changed on this matter, but you are not willing to carry out the full demands then you too are a heretic.
Pardon me, but your anti-catholic bigotry is showing. Not one of your above characterizations of the Church are true. Any of your conclusions based on them can safely be ignored.
 
Pardon me, but your anti-catholic bigotry is showing. Not one of your above characterizations of the Church are true. Any of your conclusions based on them can safely be ignored.
Accusing me of being anti-catholic is not a valid counter argument against historical fact.
(And I can promise you, I’m not anti-Cathlolic. I don’t go onto Mormon or Islamic forums to debate these topics because I really don’t care what they think. I care very much about the Catholic Church, but I am not going to lie just to make it look better).

Pick up any history book you like, nay, any bible ever printed and you’ll find my evidence quite correct.

I’ll focus on the women altar servers and teachers for this, both of these are abominations before God according to Paul and the first 1960-ish years of Church History, so why are you doing nothing about them?

We can either come to two conclusions, the current teaching of the Catholic Church is false and Heretical, or that times have moved on and this is no longer applicable (which seems to have been the direction chosen on this topic).
 
Accusing me of being anti-catholic is not a valid counter argument against historical fact.
(And I can promise you, I’m not anti-Cathlolic. I don’t go onto Mormon or Islamic forums to debate these topics because I really don’t care what they think. I care very much about the Catholic Church, but I am not going to lie just to make it look better).

Pick up any history book you like, nay, any bible ever printed and you’ll find my evidence quite correct.

I’ll focus on the women altar servers and teachers for this, both of these are abominations before God according to Paul and the first 1960-ish years of Church History, so why are you doing nothing about them?
Not one thing in your prior post was fact. Most of it was inuendo. I will call your history books and raise you Scripture and CCC.
We can either come to two conclusions, the current teaching of the Catholic Church is false and Heretical, or that times have moved on and this is no longer applicable (which seems to have been the direction chosen on this topic).
False dicotomy. Third option: Truth is eternal. Jesus is the Truth. He established a Church for which He sent the Holy Spirit to protect from error.
 
Not one thing in your prior post was fact. Most of it was inuendo. I will call your history books and raise you Scripture and CCC.
Alright, since I can’t actually hand you a book through a computer screen I’m going to have to use free website links.

I shall not be using the Catechism of the Catholic Church as that was formulated in the wake of Vatican II where many of these changes in doctrine and practices took place (and as such it no longer endorses them and is irrelevant to the time frame we are addressing; the Practices and Teachings of the Catholic Church Prior to Vatican II).

Slavery
Slaves should be told …[not] to despise their masters and recognize they are only slaves"
Only slaves? Let’s go a little bit deeper…
Slavery in different forms existed within Christianity for over 18 centuries. Although in the early years of Christianity, freeing slaves was regarded as an act of charity,[75] and the Christian view of equality of all people including slaves was a novelty in the Roman Empire,[76] the actual institution of slavery was rarely criticised. Indeed, in 340, the Synod of Gangra condemned the Manicheans for their urging that slaves should liberate themselves; the canons of the Synod instead declared that anyone preaching abolitionism should be anathematised, and that slaves had a Christian obligation to submit to their masters. Augustine of Hippo, who renounced his former Manicheanism, argued that slavery was part of the mechanism to preserve the natural order of things;[77][78] John Chrysostom, regarded as a saint by Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, argued that slaves should be resigned to their fate, as by obeying his master he is obeying God.
My, my, we really didn’t think very highly of the non elite do we? Are we the Roman Empire or a Church at this point? It’s kinda hard to tell the difference in practices. We’re clearly just as morally bankrupt.

And before you present to me the counter argument that “slavery wasn’t all that bad in the ancient world” and that it was different from more modern varients…No, it wasn’t. A slave could have his children sold off, raped or murdered at his masters pleasure.
In 1452 Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, which granted Afonso V of Portugal the right to reduce any “Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers” to hereditary slavery. The approval of slavery under these conditions was reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex bull of 1455. In 1488 Pope Innocent VIII accepted the gift of 100 slaves from Ferdinand II of Aragon and distributed those slaves to his cardinals and the Roman nobility. Also, in 1639 Pope Urban VIII purchased slaves for himself from the Knights of Malta
So now we’re not actually just giving slavery a thumbs up, by this stage we’re actively taking part in the slave trade and using the office of the Pope to further it’s interests!

But as we all know, this tradition didn’t last.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/POPSLAVE.HTM

The Church formally denounced slavery in 1890, but it never explicitly forbade it for Catholic’s until 1975 (As both a crime and a sin against human dignity).

Now, have we just invented a sin? Surely that’s just as bad, since we’re defaming Gods word with things he never said.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery#Pope_Gregory_I
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_slavery

I pulled this up in about five minutes on Wikipedia. I’ll happily get more but for a timely response I’ll leave this for now.

The place of Women
Code:
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; ***for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church***."[1 Cor. 14:34–35]

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I*** do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man***; she must be quiet."[1 Tim. 2:11-12]

"* to array themselves in a befitted catastola,[17] with reverence and restraint, not with braids, or gold, or pearls, or costly garments. But as becomes women proclaiming godliness, with good deeds."[1 Tim. 2:9–10]

"***Let a woman learn, quietly, in all subjection*** ."[1 Tim. 2:11]

"***Now I permit a woman neither to teach nor exercise authority over a man, but let her be in quietness***. [1 Tim. 2:12]
False dicotomy. Third option: Truth is eternal. Jesus is the Truth. He established a Church for which He sent the Holy Spirit to protect from error.
Then why are you not dealing with the heretical women who dare speak in church?

Clearly, it’s not all eternal or we’re all going to hell anyway for letting women talk. Eitherway, I’m going to be a massive hypocrite if I condemn consensual homosexual marriages, seeing as we can apparently decide to alter (or indeed ignore or invent “truth”) when it comes to what is or isn’t appropriate conduct in this day and age.*
 
Pardon me, but your anti-catholic bigotry is showing. Not one of your above characterizations of the Church are true. Any of your conclusions based on them can safely be ignored.
Neko is in no way putting forth anti-Catholic bigotry. Trying to explain that history marches on and that social customs and norms that were appropriate 2000 years ago are not acceptable in today’s world is hateful in what exact manner? Those who fail to learn from what has happened in the past are doomed to relive it again. The historical facts are that slaves were considered a regular part of life and quite legal and women were treated far differently in past times - you cannot magically do away with reality. Thank goodness that Papa Francis lives in the real world and as the pastor for several billion Catholics, understands that we live in 2014. His mission to make the Church one that lives out the Gospels of our Lord will most likely save the Church, especially in the First World.👍
 
Neko is in no way putting forth anti-Catholic bigotry. Trying to explain that history marches on and that social customs and norms that were appropriate 2000 years ago are not acceptable in today’s world is hateful in what exact manner? Those who fail to learn from what has happened in the past are doomed to relive it again. The historical facts are that slaves were considered a regular part of life and quite legal and women were treated far differently in past times - you cannot magically do away with reality. Thank goodness that Papa Francis lives in the real world and as the pastor for several billion Catholics, understands that we live in 2014. His mission to make the Church one that lives out the Gospels of our Lord will most likely save the Church, especially in the First World.👍
If what is being spoken of applies to social customs and norms, you would have a point. Apparent teachings on women in the church and slavey are not relevant ot the OP. What is at hand is what is moral vs. what is not, relative to marriage. Truth is never hateful, although those espousing it can do so in an uncharitible way. If we condone sin we are far from living the Gospel.
 
If what is being spoken of applies to social customs and norms, you would have a point. Apparent teachings on women in the church and slavey are not relevant ot the OP. What is at hand is what is moral vs. what is not, relative to marriage. Truth is never hateful, although those espousing it can do so in an uncharitible way. If we condone sin we are far from living the Gospel.
No we are not to condone sin, we are to forgive it or at least leave that to God. We are not to judge either.
 
Neko is in no way putting forth anti-Catholic bigotry. Trying to explain that history marches on and that social customs and norms that were appropriate 2000 years ago are not acceptable in today’s world is hateful in what exact manner? Those who fail to learn from what has happened in the past are doomed to relive it again. The historical facts are that slaves were considered a regular part of life and quite legal and women were treated far differently in past times - you cannot magically do away with reality. Thank goodness that Papa Francis lives in the real world and as the pastor for several billion Catholics, understands that we live in 2014. His mission to make the Church one that lives out the Gospels of our Lord will most likely save the Church, especially in the First World.👍
Thanks Kozlosap 😃 I know my english is a bit shaky at times but I’m really not trying to be anti-Catholic. I’m relived that someone else can see that.
If what is being spoken of applies to social customs and norms, you would have a point. Apparent teachings on women in the church and slavey are not relevant ot the OP. What is at hand is what is moral vs. what is not, relative to marriage. Truth is never hateful, although those espousing it can do so in an uncharitible way. If we condone sin we are far from living the Gospel.
You haven’t answered me though Davidv. These “apparent” teachings were at one point the doctrine and practices of the Catholic church (Do you remember that it was Vatican II that permitted women to take up altar service for the first time? It had been barred before then as against sacred tradition).

I’m glad you think the quotes I posted were hateful, since that shows somewhere inside you, you know they’re not right. They’re all relevant to this debate though, since all three of these topics are supported (in the case of slavery) or condemned by St.Paul, Scripture or Sacred Tradition, and in the case of the position of women and slavery we’ve been willing to flip the table on the subject compleatley, or indeed invent “truth” to mark the previously endorsed slave trade as sinful.

Why do we not apply this same standard to homosexuality? It is both unjust and hypocritical in this day and age?
 
My feelings about gay marriage are about the same as my feelings for abortion, both of which are in accordance with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. By some of the threads I have read it sounds like some of you need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, pray a whole lot more and then maybe you could begin to understand the damage both of these are doing to the Catholic Church and all humans and their souls. To condone the actions of either gay marriage or abortion, is to contribute to the destruction of our Church and at the same time a grievous sin. Remember to love the sinner and hate the sin, and make no mistake actions taken by those who tolerate either is terribly wrong.
I am a Catholic man, retired United States Marine, Knight of Columbus (4th Degree), Lighthouse Catholic Media Account Manager, alter server, member of the Legion of Mary, and I still am learning things like how to pray, meditate on the mysteries of the rosary, love my enemy, and much more. There is so much to learn about our Church and how to Love Jesus more. Please all of you think and pray always. Vivat Jesus,
Teufelhunde
 
No we are not to condone sin, we are to forgive it or at least leave that to God. We are not to judge either.
How are we to carry out these spiritual works of mercy, admonish the sinner, instruct the ignorant, and council the doubt, if we don’t judge (actions and words, not states of souls)?
 
My feelings about gay marriage are about the same as my feelings for abortion, both of which are in accordance with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. By some of the threads I have read it sounds like some of you need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, pray a whole lot more and then maybe you could begin to understand the damage both of these are doing to the Catholic Church and all humans and their souls. To condone the actions of either gay marriage or abortion, is to contribute to the destruction of our Church and at the same time a grievous sin. Remember to love the sinner and hate the sin, and make no mistake actions taken by those who tolerate either is terribly wrong.
I have to disagree somewhat Teufelhunde, suprising as it may be to some of you I agree with the Catholic Church on the matter of Abortion, and I am acquainted with the CCC (since I have to refer to it almost daily at present for my coursework).

On the matter of homosexuality however I feel we are contributing to the destruction of the church by remaining silent and supporting the current stance. The Churches current stance, in lieu with 2000 years worth of other unresolved scandals which seem to have culminated into public outcry as part of the sex abuse cases is driving the faithful away (it’s certainly driven myself, everyone I attended Catholic school with and almost everyone under 65 in my parish away).

I miss it, but since I can’t receive communion or absolution since it is impossible for me to agree with this clearly wrong stance there is little point me attending anymore. Within 20 years my parish will probably be dead if the Church doesn’t take some action to drag itself out of the dark ages.

I don’t want that to happen; I find Atheism to be quite a chilling and cold concept…But it’s going to happen if we don’t do something to fix it. We can start by not promoting ancient societal norms which are morally wrong today.
 
How are we to carry out these spiritual works of mercy, admonish the sinner, instruct the ignorant, and council the doubt, if we don’t judge (actions and words, not states of souls)?
By minding our own buisness and setting an example of merciful, compassionate and godly conduct. Marking out Homosexuals as diabolic pederasts and second class citizens from denial of rights isn’t it.
 
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