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Peter_Plato
Guest
Never said you did. My post was not intended as a response to you. Go back and check.
- Status
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NekoNecro
Guest
Oh, feel free to ask, I don’t mind
It was a number of things really I guess. About mid-way through my degree I started to have niggling doubts about a few topics, (Not about the existence of God or the Divinity of Christ, weirdly enough I’ve never really had any strong doubts about those kind of questions, but blind faith in a practice without reason to back it up? I wavered).
Two other things really made me probe deeper into my faith and the reasons for it. A very good friend of mine was very devout Catholic but it turned out also to be a gay. He kept it to himself, and I have no idea if he remained chaste or not but somehow this information became public knowledge in our Parish and he hung himself, unable to live with the shame and abuse that started to come from both his own family and some of his former friends. In the time before he did it he pretty much became a social pariah, the parish treated him like some black sheep and the guys seemed to actually fear him like he was about to hop over the pew and rape them. The fact that some of the leading members of the parish just so happened to suddenly decide to preach against homosexuality for the next few sundays after this revelation really didn’t help things (I think it was deliberate, was it malicious?..I honestly don’t know, some of them are stuck up jerks) All motivated by church teaching, and no other reason.
The actions and words spoken by some of the older members of my parish (the only ones really left now) reflect traditional Catholic opinion and were…Disgusting, there’s no other word to describe it. In light of the sex abuse cases that have been turning up in my own parish as well, exposures of things that have happened about 40 years ago and the total lack of any response to sort it out I just can’t sit and nod my head along supporting this double standard any more. I actually stayed longer than a lot of people once the information about what used to go on at the school next door started come out, I just blindly hoped things would blow over I guess, they didn’t. And in the end I remember a few meetings where the general attitude was “So what? They need to just deal with it”.
To receive the sacraments of absolution and communion I have to be free of sin, and my views have to be in total synchronization and submission with the Catholic Church to receive either. Seeing as they are not, nor are they very likely to ever be with the current stance it seemed pointless for me to keep attending on Sundays. I cannot sit passively anymore and contribute to this, and directly or indirectly the Catholics church’s teaching against homosexuals (and on other topics) are doing just that. You cannot teach acceptance of gays but denial of a crucial aspect of what makes them who they are, that’s illogical in this century.
I miss mass, and I miss taking part in the Church. Before this I was a fairly active member, leading youth groups, even helping out with RCIA classes. Not anymore though, I can’t support this until things change, and judging from the fact the parish has shrunk from a healthy and large congregation to about fifteen pensioners and two younger couples in about four years…I guess I’m not the only one discontent.
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NekoNecro
Guest
Uggh…Stupid grammar. Sorry, that should have said “she”, not “I”.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
No it isn’t “pot luck.” There are determinable reasons for it, just as there are determinable reasons for Down’s syndrome or being born without limbs. Again, conditions that are epigenetic or caused by biological or chemical trauma are not given a pass in terms of “should be promoted” merely because they exist. Nobody is arguing, least of all you, that Down’s syndrome or being born without a limb are NOT debilitating. They definitely are. No one is arguing these ought to be promoted in the general population, yet that is what is happening in countries where “gay marriage” has become a legal reality. And that is where your analogy falls apart.
The specific causes that trigger the epigenetic expression of “gayness” are not known, so how can anyone know that it is “good” to promote the condition itself? There is a boatload of political, social and psychological presumption in promoting gay marriage. This is where your knowledge and reason claims fall apart. You don’t know nor can you foresee the effects of promoting gay marriage on society, yet you continue to use it as a cudgel to beat the Church.
Your “knowledge” and convictions are skewed as a result of a one-sided perspective. Your points in your last four posts can be taken apart systematically. I haven’t the time at the moment. I suggest you read What is Marriage? by Sherif Girgis, Robert George, et al. I find their presentation far more enlightened, compelling, consistent and unbiased than what you have concocted on this thread. Your case amounts to condemnation by association and innuendo and has not answered the arguments FOR a conjugal view of marriage.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
No, your entire post reads as if you took my points to be directed to you, they weren’t.
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josh987654321
Guest
Oh, feel free to ask, I don’t mind
It was a number of things really I guess. (…) I just blindly hoped things would blow over I guess, they didn’t. And in the end I remember a few meetings where the general attitude was “So what? They need to just deal with it”.
(This emoticon only scratches the surface of the sadness in my heart).May I ask what the name (just first name) of your friend who hung himself was so that I may pray for him?
May I also ask why you believe they were somehow doing God’s work, the same God who is Love and Mercy itself?
It is not pointless.
If you have a chance, I would strongly recommend these short booklets that have deepened me many ways in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church*(They all contain the Roman Catholic Imprimatur which assures the reader that nothing therein is contrary to Catholic Faith, Morals or Teachings).* -
Books on the Eucharist
The Holy Mass - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HM-Reg.pdf
In Adoration - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IA-Reg.pdf
Books on Spiritual Testimonies & Devotions
Divine Providence - loveandmercy.org/Eng-DP-Reg.pdf
My Broken Christ Walks Over the Waters - loveandmercy.org/Eng-MBC-Reg.pdf
Praying the Rosary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-PR-Reg.pdf
The Visible Face of the Invisible God - loveandmercy.org/Eng-VF-Reg.pdf
Books on the Passion
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
The Stations of The Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf
From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf
I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf
For more infromation regarding them please go here - youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf
But that is just the thing, it is not who they are, The Catholic Church doesn’t preach against homosexuals and neither should any Catholic. I am a heterosexual and I am sexually attracted to the opposite sex, but that is not who I am, and I agree that pre marital sex, fornication, masturbation and promiscuity are immoral acts.I believe homosexuals are no different to any one of us, I believe there is not one man or woman who does not suffer from an immoral desire of some kind and when the CCC say’s that homosexuality is a ‘disorder’ I believe it’s also important to recognise that ‘Lying’ is also called a ‘disorder’ by the CCC, yet many of us have told a lie or been tempted to lie before, and we ourselves are not disordered, I believe neither are homosexuals, however I do believe that the ‘act’ is immoral and disordered though, just like I would say when it comes to lying.
What about Jesus real presense in the Holy Eucharist? He waits for us night and day at the tabernacle, He will not reproach us for our crimes, He will not throw our sins in our face, what He will do is to wash us with the blood of His wounds, He loves all of us very much.
I would also like to share with you these previous posts on forgiveness that I believe will help you.
Post 1
Post 2
I hope I have helped
Please feel free to reply/refute anything I have said.
God Bless you.
Thank you for reading
Josh
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NekoNecro
Guest
I’m not quite sure what we’re getting at ehere, I think you’re suggesting that either A) Some people are born differently to one another, some with useful abnormal qualities (A pretty face), some with negative (a genetic illness) or some that make no impact upon ones life whatsoever (brown hair) or that B) Disabilities are a curse bestowed by God, which I find incredulous.
Homosexuals can live perfectly normal and fulfilling lives just like anyone else. They are not physically debilitated, neither are they mentally handicapped. the only limitations are the ones we force upon them.
Unless you suggest we force left handed people to write with the right, since it is different from the norm this is not an effective argument.
I’m not suggesting we promote homosexuality, I certainly don’t go around promoting hetrosexuality. The only reason we have pride marches or talks about homosexuality at the moment is to dispel all the lies being promoted by the fundamentalist churches.
You know I was sat in one yesterday (for my coursework research) listening to a talk given by a Baptist preacher, and he touched upon the topic in his lecture rather briefly. If I was to take what he said as absolute truth I would have left that building under the impression that Homosexuals are satanists, the UK prime minister is the foretold whore of Babylon and that If I was happy to allow homosexuals to live in society freely (practicing or non-practicing) I must have been raped as a child.
The LGBT movement has a lot of work on their hands showing thats not true.
It’s not intrinsically good, but it’s not automatically bad either. It has the potential to be either or neither.
I would suggest you take a look at Denmark, where State-Church endorsed state marriage has been the norm for coming on twenty years now. LGBT suicides and homelessness are rare compared to America’s statistics, life expectancy has increased dramatically and the general contentment of the nation is at an all time high.
They must be doing something right.
I eagerly await your attempt.
I’m not so familiar with Robert George but I know of Sherif Girgis’s through his lectures and he’s about as unbiased as Hitler was mildly disapproving of Judaism.
Don’t get me wrong, he’s a brilliant scholar (the acclaim awarded to his essay on Dante and the standard of institutions he attended is testament to it) but again, I find many of his points on marriage to be highly idealized and based on older standards purely because they are old rather than rationality to be taken very seriously.
That said, I’ll check the archives for this book and see if I can get a copy, thanks for suggesting it.
I was under the impression that we were discussing the theological and moral factors of opposing SSA, but if you’d like me to more thoroughly explain the benefits from a secular standpoint I shall be glad to, because there really is no argument ethically or legalistically for it short of “I don’t like it”, which is childish or “This is new, new things scare me” which again is childish.
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NekoNecro
Guest
Yeah…I don’t really see what else I can do though. If I sit and meekly nod my head in support I think I’d be doing far worse than refusing to participate in it.
May I ask what the name (just first name) of your friend who hung himself was so that I may pray for him?
His name was Seth
Thanks for thinking about him.Who do I belive was doing the lords work? The members of my Parish who promoted these views? No, I don’t think they were (we’re all in trouble if they really were). A few of them of them still think they are but thankfully most have seen the mistakes in it.
Thanks for the links Josh987654321, I’ll read though them as soon as I finish with my latest essay.
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NekoNecro
Guest
Well, I would agree with most of these being immoral and non-deal, masturbation less so after doing some psychology but that’s an entirely different topic!
Hetrosexuality might not be the entirety of your being, but it does form a huge part of one of your most important capacities as a human being, your ability to feel, experience and share love (of multiple types) with others. Homosexuals are essentially taught and indeed in many cases forced to suppress this faculty that without the correct expression can be very damaging to the sufferer both spiritually and mentally.
There are a select few who do not suffer the lack of this aspect in their lives, albeit I do suspect most of them to be asexual rather than homosexual. But as history and research continues to show me, it’s very damaging to most people.
Quite true, and I would agree that in most scenarios lying is bad (obviously there are exceptions such telling a man with a chainsaw a lie about where his intended victim lives isn’t bad). I cannot truly and fairly in my own mind equate spreading untruth with consensual homosexual relationships however.
Since I’m still studying I’m currently house sharing with a lesbian at present, one who is part of a protestant denomination that accepts active homosexuality I get ample opportunity to observe what the so called “gay lifestyle” is (she’s attempted a few times to convert me but I’ve really no interest). I can honestly say that compared to many of the other relationships I get to see between men and women I can observe no notable difference between how she, and her partner (they don’t live together, as far as I’m aware they’re even abstaining from sex until they get married back in the UK) behave than any other couple I know short of the fact she happens to be dating another woman.
Lies are very often destructive forces, facilitating illusions that are detrimental to society. It is totally irrational for me to say for one moment (based on observation and research) that homosexual tendencies are on par with this.
A person becomes a liar anyway, I’m yet to meet anyone who chose to feel attraction for their own gender.
That’s actually what I miss most Josh987654321 but as your posts themselves explain, that is my problem.
I am not sorry for holding these views in opposition to the Catholic Church’s current stance. At one point I honestly wished I was, I wished I could force myself to think they were absolutely correct, like Orwell once said in 1984 “I wish I could make 2+2 = 5” but I just can’t. For a time I continued to promote them even though everything in my head was screaming “this is wrong”.
But now, now that I am in disagreement and am do not believe my view and actions to be wrong I cannot go to confession, nor can I take part in the Eucharist. What Jesus may have is not on offer to me anymore, unless I submit to current Church teaching, which morally I cannot do anymore since I believe it to be on this topic (as of writing) a very bad mistake, against the common good and (most worryingly of all to me) poses a threat to the future of the Church.
Perhaps once in the ancient world teaching against it was entirely warranted, the eromenos/erastes pederast relationships along with the common use of male rape to signify total dominance of one man over another are reason enough to try and eradicate the practice. We’ve come a long way since then, and it doesn’t seem to have any place in our enlightened age anymore now we more fully appreciate concepts such ad dignity, freedom and consent.
I have considered you posts and I do agree, to an extent I am bitter. I am bitter to have lost such a good friend and to have lost such a big part of my life (the Church). That said, whenever I write about it on here and in my work I always have to reign that back, and write using the impartial analysis required of an academic.
I am sorry for a number of things, but fighting in favor of LGBT marriage is not one of them. I do not believe it to be solely me anymore either seeing how my parish has shrank, for it is pity, loss and most of all love that is forcing us to move away from the church, because I certainly don’t see any of that in the Church at the moment.
I see judgement, an bullheaded unwillingness to change and in many cases surrounding Church malpractice complete obstinate denial of reality and an unwillingness to put things right so it never happens again.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Evelyn Hooker’s “The Adjustment of the Male Overt Homosexual” showed that even leading psychologists couldn’t actually discern through psychological testing the difference between a well adjusted homosexual and a well adjusted heterosexual. Even the Rorschach test which was considered the gold standard by which to diagnose homosexuality proved to be utterly useless at discerning the two.
Define “spiritual disorder” and define “physical disorder”.
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edwest2
Guest
Sad. I don’t engage in sleight of hand. I was there. Others were there. It’s documented. Facts are facts. It’s sad to see the term two-faced replace the words sin and scandal. Because sin and scandal are more prevalent today does not make things any better, or beneficial. Exactly the opposite. Again, a system that worked was attacked primarily by those who loved sin and scandal. That’s why I would never buy a 1950s magazine like Confidential.
So, some Catholics are working to rebuild what was torn down.
Peace,
Ed
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
I know how that feels, I’m sorry for your loss. The experience taught me that while the Church’s teachings are sound most Catholics practice it horribly wrong, e.g. incorrectly conflating “disordered” in the Catechism with mental disorder and that “intrinsically disordered” makes gay sex some kind of special sin when in fact all sex between men and women outside marriage is also intrinsically disordered.Oh, feel free to ask, I don’t mind
It was a number of things really I guess. About mid-way through my degree I started to have niggling doubts about a few topics, (Not about the existence of God or the Divinity of Christ, weirdly enough I’ve never really had any strong doubts about those kind of questions, but blind faith in a practice without reason to back it up? I wavered).
Two other things really made me probe deeper into my faith and the reasons for it. **A very good friend of mine was very devout Catholic but it turned out also to be a gay. He kept it to himself, and I have no idea if he remained chaste or not but somehow this information became public knowledge in our Parish and he hung himself, unable to live with the shame and abuse that started to come from both his own family and some of his former friends. ** In the time before he did it he pretty much became a social pariah, the parish treated him like some black sheep and the guys seemed to actually fear him like he was about to hop over the pew and rape them. The fact that some of the leading members of the parish just so happened to suddenly decide to preach against homosexuality for the next few sundays after this revelation really didn’t help things (I think it was deliberate, was it malicious?..I honestly don’t know, some of them are stuck up jerks) All motivated by church teaching, and no other reason.
The actions and words spoken by some of the older members of my parish (the only ones really left now) reflect traditional Catholic opinion and were…Disgusting, there’s no other word to describe it. In light of the sex abuse cases that have been turning up in my own parish as well, exposures of things that have happened about 40 years ago and the total lack of any response to sort it out I just can’t sit and nod my head along supporting this double standard any more. I actually stayed longer than a lot of people once the information about what used to go on at the school next door started come out, I just blindly hoped things would blow over I guess, they didn’t. And in the end I remember a few meetings where the general attitude was “So what? They need to just deal with it”.
To receive the sacraments of absolution and communion I have to be free of sin, and my views have to be in total synchronization and submission with the Catholic Church to receive either. Seeing as they are not, nor are they very likely to ever be with the current stance it seemed pointless for me to keep attending on Sundays. I cannot sit passively anymore and contribute to this, and directly or indirectly the Catholics church’s teaching against homosexuals (and on other topics) are doing just that. You cannot teach acceptance of gays but denial of a crucial aspect of what makes them who they are, that’s illogical in this century.
I miss mass, and I miss taking part in the Church. Before this I was a fairly active member, leading youth groups, even helping out with RCIA classes. Not anymore though, I can’t support this until things change, and judging from the fact the parish has shrunk from a healthy and large congregation to about fifteen pensioners and two younger couples in about four years…I guess I’m not the only one discontent.
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davidv
Guest
Please consult any dictionary and pick the definition that best fits the context in which they were used.
Alternatively: Please indentify the potential equivocal meaning that I may have been using to mislead.
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NekoNecro
Guest
Translation: I have no valid comeback.
So are the death records and estimates of all the women who died of backstreet abortions. Unless you’re suggesting they were all miraculous virgin conceptions clearly…There was just as much, if not more illicit sex taking place.
I’d actually argue more, purely because sex isn’t such a taboo topic anymore and much of the mystique and mystery has vanished. It’s not as fun if everyone doing it, after all why would we have trends?
Their ranking of sin and scandal are really of no interest to me, since I am not judging the morality of them at present.
I would rather someone be honest about whatever illicit activities they were doing, rather than pretending to be a perfect example of a Good christian man while secretly beating his wife and having sex with prostitutes.
As I have proven with my evidence regarding slavery, “Sin” is clearly subjective and relative to the age it takes place in. Enslave an African today? You’re gonna get excommunicated. Now if you had done it back in the 15th century? Nobody would have thought anything of it, indeed you’d have been excommunicated for opposing it!
No, we just got sick and tired of the double standard and fake smiles all around. We’d rather just have the gritty good old truth, because then we can actually do something to fix it rather than fanning ourselfs in shock, squealing like immature schoolgirls over “scandal”.
Lets not forget “scandal” is why so many abusive priests got away with it for so long, because no-body would dare suggest the man serving God could possibly be anything less than perfect (Does anyone remember Newfoundlands “scandals”?, all those little boys branded as liars until it turned out they were telling the truth? Yeah, Scandal to me just sounds like “we messed up but we don’t want to admit it”).
Well, I might not be a seer or a prophet but I can tell you now with absolute certainty, your plan is doomed to failure.
Europe, Canada and most of North America, the biggest bank rollers and supporters of the Catholic Church has woken up, and are not going to put with with maltreatment anymore. I can tell you (I’ll use the UK for instance since I’m now here atm), They value the Church in their sciety, but as soon as it steps a toe out of line out of it’s jurisdiction (tending to it’s faithful and not those who don’t ask to partake in it’s concept of morality) it’s going to get a slapped wrist and be promptly told to get back where it belongs, outside of politics and secular society and called to bear if it seeks to disturb peaceful society (which the calls against gay marriage are doing).
It saddens me to an extent, but the Catholic Church has really no hope of influencing society the way it once did ever again, I cant think anyone is foolish enough to hand over absolute political power to a Theocratic dictator (lets be honest, that is part of what the office of Pope entails, he is absolute Lord of the Vatican city state and formerly of half of Italy under the Papal States), especially one with such a bad track record in the area.
There’s only so many times you can kick a puppy before it learns to bite you back and really…The population of the first world has centuries worth of abuse (especially in traditionally Catholic countries in Europe like Ireland and France) to motivate them to bite.
It’s not going to evangelize the world, thats never going to happen now. What it can do is hang onto the dwindling membership it retains, and I’d rather see that happening than some hashed attempt to restore the world to a mythical state of grace.
The Holy Roman Empire tired to do that, restoring the Roman empire and look how well that turned out. Neither, holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. All you’ll manage to create is at best a small sect tinged with nostalgia.
This isn’t venom, just a plain statement of fact. I really, really do not enjoy saying it, but I’m not going to deny the truth staring me in the face.
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davidv
Guest
What, if anything, of the above applies to the topic of the thread? Most of it seems to be mudslinging of the most uncharitable kind. At best, what is presented is an invalid ad hominem.
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NekoNecro
Guest
I’m sorry to hear that you know of what this feels like
It saddens me more than my words can describe to think of the other poor souls driven into this. There is a difference taught though Joie de Vivre, we are taught there are occasions where heterosexual sex is to be praised, whereas there are no occasions where homosexual relationships are to be allowed.It is not possible or feasible to allow homosexuals to be in society but not actually “be” homosexual, rather than hiding away trying to quash their “SSA”.
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edwest2
Guest
And today’s primary problem is people writing the following on another message board where I am a moderator: “We no longer want to feel guilty or ashamed or sinful ever again.” The Vatican is located in Rome. Man is not God.
Peace,
Ed
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NekoNecro
Guest
The topic appears to have slowly been sliding towards a different direction, which I have been following and responding accordingly to.
I’ll request for a third time, if I am mudslinging and am speaking falsely, prove me wrong.
By this stage however it is clear to me that you cannot.
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davidv
Guest
Nice dodge. You made some very uncharitible claims, You have been challenged to back them up. You have failed do so with rational support.
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NekoNecro
Guest
And here’s another one who can’t disprove my points.
You’re damn right, I don’t want homosexuals to be ashamed or guilty about forming a romantic relationship with one of their own gender. Because that is not wrong, or sinful as much as we might want to cling vehemently to the clearly subjective standards of a bygone age.
Man is not God, but neither is the Vatican. It is a great authority, but it is not God. It can err, and it has many times.
When it errs, we have to try and set things straight.
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