Gay Marriage

[j_arden]

MiJoy2 - I feel much the same way that you do. I too don’t see the problem with a committed same-sex relationship on my own. Since the Church and Scripture, the inspired writings entusted to her by God, are clear on the immorality of all same-sex sexual expression, I can only understand the issue through my belief that I am under the authority of God and His Church. This belief trumps any conclusion about homosexuality I might come up with on my own.

This topic is essentially a question of authority and revelation–two things that have been on my mind a lot lately. It’s becoming clear just how many things I believe that I otherwise wouldn’t if I only had my own oh-so-limited reasoning ability. Aside from from the beliefs I have directly about God, such as the Incarnation, Trinity, Real Presence, etc., there are many others, such as opposition to contraception and early-term abortion, the indissolubility of Christian marriage, and the need for (and benefit of) loving your enemies, and many others. God’s revelation is so rich!

In regards to the original issue of homosexuality, I will continue my friendships with non-Christian homosexuals and respect their right to make their own decisions. However, doing so in no way forfiets my right to make my own decisions or precludes continuing dialogue about this or any other potentially contentious issue.

• JP

 

[Scott_Waddell]

What I cannot see is how homosexuality is more grave a sin then the sins mentioned above. That is where my understanding breaks down.

If that is where your understanding breaks down, then it is easy. Mortal sin is mortal sin, be it homo, hetero whatever. I did not see anyone here suggest that it was more sinful. (Maybe it is, but thats seems to get into an pedantic academic discussion).

If the question is like the topic thread, Is it a sin to think that gay marriage is OK? then yes, a Catholic defying church teaching is sinful.

The question of whether homosexuality is more sinful than other mortal sins is largely irrelevant. Now, we don’t concentrate as much on hetero sins for the simple reason is that there is no movement currently attempting to half-nelson believers into saying there is nothing wrong with adultery, etc.

There is also the assumption that two people of the same sex who love each other are compelled to have sex. All people, hetero or homo are called to chastity. Real love is doing what is best for the beloved–and sending the beloved down a path of barren and ever-increasing perversity is not it.

Scott

 

[Mijoy2]

Scott Waddell:

The question of whether homosexuality is more sinful than other mortal sins is largely irrelevant. Now, we don’t concentrate as much on hetero sins for the simple reason is that there is no movement currently attempting to half-nelson believers into saying there is nothing wrong with adultery, etc.

There is also the assumption that two people of the same sex who love each other are compelled to have sex. All people, hetero or homo are called to chastity. Real love is doing what is best for the beloved–and sending the beloved down a path of barren and ever-increasing perversity is not it.

Scott

“Now, we don’t concentrate as much on hetero sins for the simple reason is that there is no movement currently attempting to half-nelson believers into saying there is nothing wrong with adultery, etc.”

Yes, and the simple fact that it is much mroe common.

I’m glad to hear from two people (who reponded here) that both seem to feel as I do. I am not against homosexual activity because it happens to be two people of the same sex. I feel it’s wrong for precisely the same reason I see it’s wrong for non-marriage heterosexual activity.

Therefore I think it safe to say there is not a trace of homo-phobia in the Catholic teaching. There is only sin-o-phobia.

 

[gsaccone]

Mijoy2:

Greg,

You did a wonderful job of expressing yourself here. Where I have a problem is in the all-or-nothing perpective of this argument. Meaning, yes, Gods love for His Son and vise-versa essentially giving life to the Holy Spirit is purely beautiful. I’ve never heard it expressed that way. The parallel that can be drawn between a husband and wife further illustrates the beauty. BUT, why MUST it be this way for all? It’s a differing sort-of relationship. I love my children but our love will not produce life. I love my friends but our love will not produce life. Why is it that a homosexual cannot love a homosexual and not produce life?

I’m inquiring, please understand.

Dear Mijoy2,
Thanks for your sincere inquiry, may God bless you and all who seek His will. You asked “why MUST it be this way for all? I love my children but our love will not produce life …” There is a fundamental difference between how you love husband and how you love your children and your friends; you do not have a sexual relationship with them (I’m guessing this is a fair assumption).

Remember that God made us in His image and one of the ways we are in His image is to share in the power of creation. Remember too that God commanded us to go forth and multiply, which was not just an idle command to populate the earth for God could have created millions of beings at once if He wished to do so. Rather it was to fulfill a part of us made in His image, the part made to model His own creative life. Add to that that He joined a man and woman together so that they are one, bound together not to be put asunder. Follow me through the next step ok? God is one, is He not? The Trinity is more than one person but is one nature only; the Trinity is bound together and cannot be put asunder. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and can never be “divorced.” A man and woman are put together to model or reflect that same relationship through the sacrament of marriage, and it is in THIS type of BOUND relationship that we see God’s creative power of LOVE reflected in man - that life-giving power found in no other type of love. It is sexual union between two people of the opposite sex that gives the potential for that bound and creative life. Two people of the same sex that never had the possibility of modeling God’s BOUND relationship in creative love cannot model God’s creative love, and therefore cannot be in God’s image. God made the sexual union between man and woman as the way life would be created and therefore Himself ordained it as His plan to model His life. Therefore a sexual union other than what God ordained is illicit (not part of God’s design).

Hope that helps, let me know if clarification would help.
God bless,
Greg

 

[Mijoy2]

j_arden:

It’s becoming clear just how many things I believe that I otherwise wouldn’t if I only had my own oh-so-limited reasoning ability. Aside from from the beliefs I have directly about God, such as the Incarnation, Trinity, Real Presence, etc., there are many others, such as opposition to contraception and early-term abortion, the indissolubility of Christian marriage, and the need for (and benefit of) loving your enemies, and many others. God’s revelation is so rich!

• JP

JP,

This is so well said. I learned this through personal experience which is probably our best teacher. I never believed in the “indissolubility of Christian marriage” prior to coming back to my Faith 2 years ago. My marriage almost disolved. I learned this concept from my readings on Church doctrine and felt cheated. Having trusted in the Lord and the teaching of the Church I followed the Churches teaching in this regard. What happened was that the Church was proven correct and I was proven woefully wrong. My prayers were answered and my marriage is now full of love, hope and happiness.

Now, I figure, if the Church was so right in this regard, maybe I should listen a little closer when other issues don’t feel so right

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Mijoy2:

Yes, and the simple fact that it is much mroe common.

Not sure what you are getting at here. Are we in agreement? Yes, I would say that hetero sin is vastly more common, but in general adulterers are not coming out of their sleazey shadows demanding moral approval (and a bunch of political graft) for their behavior.

Therefore I think it safe to say there is not a trace of homo-phobia in the Catholic teaching. There is only sin-o-phobia.

We are in complete agreement on this point.

Scott

 

[Mijoy2]

gsaccone:

Dear Mijoy2,
Thanks for your sincere inquiry, may God bless you and all who seek His will. You asked “why MUST it be this way for all? I love my children but our love will not produce life …” There is a fundamental difference between how you love husband and how you love your children and your friends; you do not have a sexual relationship with them (I’m guessing this is a fair assumption).

Remember that God made us in His image and one of the ways we are in His image is to share in the power of creation. Remember too that God commanded us to go forth and multiply, which was not just an idle command to populate the earth for God could have created millions of beings at once if He wished to do so. Rather it was to fulfill a part of us made in His image, the part made to model His own creative life. Add to that that He joined a man and woman together so that they are one, bound together not to be put asunder. Follow me through the next step ok? God is one, is He not? The Trinity is more than one person but is one nature only; the Trinity is bound together and cannot be put asunder. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and can never be “divorced.” A man and woman are put together to model or reflect that same relationship through the sacrament of marriage, and it is in THIS type of BOUND relationship that we see God’s creative power of LOVE reflected in man - that life-giving power found in no other type of love. It is sexual union between two people of the opposite sex that gives the potential for that bound and creative life. Two people of the same sex that never had the possibility of modeling God’s BOUND relationship in creative love cannot model God’s creative love, and therefore cannot be in God’s image. God made the sexual union between man and woman as the way life would be created and therefore Himself ordained it as His plan to model His life. Therefore a sexual union other than what God ordained is illicit (not part of God’s design).

Hope that helps, let me know if clarification would help.
God bless,
Greg

Yes, it helps a great deal. Thanks Greg, I will refer to this post again.

God Bless,
–Mike

 

[gsaccone]

j_arden:

This topic is essentially a question of authority and revelation–two things that have been on my mind a lot lately. It’s becoming clear just how many things I believe that I otherwise wouldn’t if I only had my own oh-so-limited reasoning ability. Aside from from the beliefs I have directly about God, such as the Incarnation, Trinity, Real Presence, etc., there are many others, such as opposition to contraception and early-term abortion, the indissolubility of Christian marriage, and the need for (and benefit of) loving your enemies, and many others. God’s revelation is so rich!

In regards to the original issue of homosexuality, I will continue my friendships with non-Christian homosexuals and respect their right to make their own decisions. However, doing so in no way forfiets my right to make my own decisions or precludes continuing dialogue about this or any other potentially contentious issue.

• JP

Blessings j_arden (JP),

With respect I have to disagree with you about this being an issue of authority. This is an issue related to God’s Trinitarian nature, please read my other posts in this thread if you haven’t already. If they aren’t clear I’ll try to do better explaining them.

It should be obvious that human reason alone could not have come to the conclusions that I alluded to in my other posts. There is an infinite complexity to God that our small minds simply would never stumble upon even if given an infinite amount of idle time to contemplate them. The Trinity has been revealed to us by Christ. Early on, by contemplating the Trinity in light of the Scriptures and Holy Tradition, great Catholic minds (and souls) have helped explain the illicitness of homosexuality in the manner I posted above (those thoughts are not my own genesis). That illicitness was not taught BECAUSE of authority, it was taught because of an UNDERSTANDING of Trinitarian nature! Authority given to the Church doesn’t exist just to teach things that are random or that could go either way. The authority was given to the Church to teach things that we might not be able to understand with our own intellect or reasoning. They are taught for a PERFECT cause based on God’s design especially since we cannot always determine rightness by our own intellect or with our own reasoning. It may seem to be semantics but the issue is much for fundamental and centers around understanding the Trinity and it’s implications for our lives. Once we see that it is much easier understand why God gave authority to the Church and to accept it.

It may now be possible to see exaclty why contraception, abortion and dissolution of marriage go against God’s Trinitarian nature and are therefore sinful. If it isn’t easily seen let me know and I’ll try to elucidate it more clearly.

With regard to having friends who are gay, I too have many friends and colleagues who are gay and there is nothing sinful about that. Encouraging them and validating them in their however is sinful, and in charity we should share our beliefs when appropriate. We are to be IN the world, not OF the world. We cannot be IN it if we shelter ourselves FROM it, yet we must clothe ourselves in Christ to be protected from it.

God Bless
Greg

 

[gsaccone]

Scott Waddell:

There is also the assumption that two people of the same sex who love each other are compelled to have sex. All people, hetero or homo are called to chastity. Real love is doing what is best for the beloved–and sending the beloved down a path of barren and ever-increasing perversity is not it.

Scott

Scott,

This is an excellent point! I started a thread some time ago that you can read here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=12596

that touched on that point a little.

Greg

 

[mercygate]

Ezzie:

You’re ASKING the question! :clapping: That means you care! :dancing: God
and the Church do not say that it is a sin to ask a question. What kind of faith is blind, unquestioning, unreasoned faith? Not faith at all but stupidity. Keep asking questions; that’s how we come to understanding.

Here’s another way to ask the question:

The Church teaches that gay marriage is impossible and that homosexual relationships are sinful. Somehow I don’t understand why that should be. Let me look into it.

WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING!

May God guide you into all Truth!

 

[JimG]

I agree with what others have said or implied: There is no sin in loving persons of the same sex. God expects fathers to love their sons and mothers to love their daughters, and all of us to love all our friends (and all people) of either sex.

What is sinful is any sexual activity outside the bond of marriage, (or even within the bond of marriage which is not open to life.)

Certainly, sexual sins are more common among heterosexuals, simply because there are more of them. Cohabitation, adultery, fornication, all fall into this category.

In actuality, the bible does consider sodomy to be a greater sexual sin than the others, but that is a matter of degree. (The old catechism lists it as one of the "sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance.) I think the reason has to do with it’s unnaturalness.

Without going into biological detail, I recall a recent article in the Human Life Review, which indicated that the biology of this type of sexual activity is harmful to the immune system.

In any case, we are expected to love everybody. There is nothing wrong in loving and being loved. Humanly, we love some more than others.

But we can only engage in genital activity with our wife or husband. That very moral point is so far removed from current societal beliefs that the secular world is simply astonished that we would expect anyone to observe it or to live by it.

 

[ICXCNIKA]

All marriages should be gay. I am certain that most people enter into marriage hoping that their marriage will be gay.

However, to ensure a gay marriage it is important to remember that marriage is a self giving of one person to another through the grace of God. That’s why it is a sacrament. If a person goes into marriage or continues a marriage trying to get rather than to give him/herself completely, I don’t think that marriage will be gay. Oh there may be moments of pleasure, but selfishness will kill a marriage.

Put Jesus first and you’ll have a gay marriage.

 

[luke2219]

Ezzie:

Is it a sin to think that gay marriage is OK?

“A thousand difficulties don’t amount to a single doubt.” I don’t know who said that first except that they were much smarter than me. It means though, that just thinking it is not a sin. Insisting that the Church is wrong and persisting in that thought would be sinful.
Penny Plain:

Is it a sin to mind one’s own business about other people’s relationships and leave those relationships to them and God?

That depends. If you saw that someone was about to get hit by a bus would it be a sin to mind your own busines or should you at least yell, “Watch out!”?

Mijoy2:

What I cannot see is how homosexuality is more grave a sin then the sins mentioned above.
Why is it that a homosexual cannot love a homosexual and not produce life?

I don’t know about the “crys out to Heaven” thing, but adultury and fornication of either orientation are objectively mortal sins so they seem to all be bad enough to me. As others have said, any two people can and should love each other. That life-giving love, expressed in the genital act, is only proper in marriage.

It’s not about saying two men can’t love each other. It’s saying that marriage is a special union, ordained by God, between one man and one woman and that genital sexual expression is only moral in that union. It’s not about saying people can’t get married. I don’t want to sound flippant, but homosexuals can get married, but by definition, only to the opposite gender.

This also isn’t about imposing our beliefs on other people. Marriage isn’t what it is because the Church says so. The Church says so because that’s how God made it and that is was it is. We don’t impose these beliefs on people any more than we impose gravity on them. We saying, “Hey, you can’t do that, and if you try you’re going to get hurt.”

Pax et bonum

 

[j_arden]

gsaccone -

I appreciate your response to my post. However, I disagree with you that we are in disagreement! My post was not a statement about why Christianity condemns same-sex sex or the nature of the Church’s teaching about theological issues such as the Trinity. I was only sharing my experience in squaring my perspective with the Church’s. I identified with a lot of the difficulties mijoy2 wrote about and wanted to explain how I approached my share of these difficulties. I agree with what you wrote regarding the Trinitarian basis for the Church’s teachings on sexuality but surely we agree that one doesn’t need to understand nuanced theological arguments in order to accept the Church’s authority.

I think this is just a case of miscommunication. Peace!

• JP

 

[j_arden]

luke2219:

… but adultury and fornication of either orientation are objectively mortal sins so they seem to all be bad enough to me.

luke2219 -

I’m not sure of your meaning here but I think this might be misleading since there is no such thing as an “objective” mortal sin in the sense that (insert bad action) = mortal sin. There are sins that are objectively grave, such as the the two you mention. Since the nature of the act–the objective part–is only one of three criteria for mortal sin, mortal sin cannot be defined by it alone. The remaining criteria have some objective elements but are also very subjective. By subjective I do no mean that they are without guiding standards to judge by, but that they cannot be judged just from the outside as an “object” can. These things are not open for public viewing. Since dying in mortal sin objectively means you will be going to Hell, objectifying mortal sin leads to the conclusion that it is possible to know if someone is in Hell and, as far as I know, the Church teaches that nobody can know in this life if a specific person is in Hell.

Like I said at the beginning of the post, I suspect the problem is just semantics but I’ve encountered many posts in these forums that clearly imply (sometimes state outright) that certain sins are per se mortal so I thought I’d make a comment. I think this view is dangerous and is a form of judging others that is not given to us to exercise. I think a case can be made that some sins are prima facie mortal but that’s probably another topic.

Blessings!

• JP

 

[luke2219]

JP

Yeah, we’re on the same page here. Thanks for clarifying for me.

Pax et bonum

 

[Writer]

JimG:

I agree with what others have said or implied: There is no sin in loving persons of the same sex. God expects fathers to love their sons and mothers to love their daughters, and all of us to love all our friends (and all people) of either sex.

What is sinful is any sexual activity outside the bond of marriage, (or even within the bond of marriage which is not open to life.)

Certainly, sexual sins are more common among heterosexuals, simply because there are more of them. Cohabitation, adultery, fornication, all fall into this category.

In actuality, the bible does consider sodomy to be a greater sexual sin than the others, but that is a matter of degree. (The old catechism lists it as one of the "sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance.) I think the reason has to do with it’s unnaturalness.

Without going into biological detail, I recall a recent article in the Human Life Review, which indicated that the biology of this type of sexual activity is harmful to the immune system.

In any case, we are expected to love everybody. There is nothing wrong in loving and being loved. Humanly, we love some more than others.

But we can only engage in genital activity with our wife or husband. That very moral point is so far removed from current societal beliefs that the secular world is simply astonished that we would expect anyone to observe it or to live by it.

Yes, while the union of a man in woman in marriage is a life-affirming act, homosexuality falls more into the category of death affirming–both in terms of the relationship being built upon a sin instead of a sacrament and the potential physical harm it may inflict. Furthermore, as we see the Culture of Death taking hold of western nations with a result of declining birth rates and the looming collapse of nations due to this decline of native populations (“Islamization” of France, for example), we are really hit over the head by the fact that there are reasons beyond the self for how we are commanded to live by our faith. God never demands something of us, which, if widely undertaken, would harm or injure society as a whole. On the other hand, homosexuality, abortion, and I would argue euthanasia harm the fabric of culture in more ways than we can enumerate. As Saint Augustine writes in *Confessions, *God is life immutable. We are called to honor and respect life and potential life at each turn. Homosexuality, instead, values one’s self beyond one’s God or culture.

 

[gsaccone]

j_arden:

gsaccone -

I appreciate your response to my post. However, I disagree with you that we are in disagreement! My post was not a statement about why Christianity condemns same-sex sex or the nature of the Church’s teaching about theological issues such as the Trinity. I was only sharing my experience in squaring my perspective with the Church’s. I identified with a lot of the difficulties mijoy2 wrote about and wanted to explain how I approached my share of these difficulties. I agree with what you wrote regarding the Trinitarian basis for the Church’s teachings on sexuality but surely we agree that one doesn’t need to understand nuanced theological arguments in order to accept the Church’s authority.

I think this is just a case of miscommunication. Peace!

• JP

Hi JP,

First off forgive me if it seemed like I was chastising you, I did not have that intent. Also I see from you post that I had not fully understood the impetus of you post and I appreciate you clarifying.

Blessings in Christ,
Greg

 

[RMP]

Christ calls for our thoughts to be pure so our hearts can be pure. But the passing of a thought itself is not a sin, not matter what that thought may be. It only becomes sinnful when we obsess about it. Obsession about a thought leads to temptation, which leads to the formal act of the sin.
A thought of gayness is not itself sinful. A thought of gay marraige being ok is not a sin. However, it is unorthodox. However the act of gay marraige or acceptance of it is a sin.

EX LEV 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman: such a thing is a abomination.” Such an act is disgusting, GOD hates this action. He shows extreme hatred for it.

"That is for poo poos, not pee pees, sayith the LORD!
I cant help myself. That thought just pooped in there. I mean popped!. Man I blew it again!
Hope this helps.

 

[RMP]

My Grandmother says " If GOD wanted men to be together, HE wouldn’t of made EVE!" I think that is a excellent point.
After all, GOD was making ADAM a life-long companion.