Gay Marrige Counter-Argument

[Chorister]

So, I was looking through the CA gay marriage tract and came across the rather surprising statistic (a few paragraphs into Part IV) that 43% of gay men had claimed to have sex with more than 500 partners.

Has anyone else noticed that:

a. The study it came from was from the 70s
b. It was taken from among a self-selected group for a specific study of “highly sexually active homosexual males”
c. The study came out of members of a county-cultural group defined by its sexual activity

Yeah, I had to do some research on the book Homosexualities, but having done that, it would seem the assertion could only be used within the context of a logically dishonest argument.

Any insight?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

The number is probably high however monogamy is a serious problem for gay couples because they lack the cross bonding design into the men and woman relationship. Just more to prove it is disordered thinking.

 

[Dale_M]

The number is probably high however monogamy is a serious problem for gay couples because they lack the cross bonding design into the men and woman relationship.

I’m not sure what you mean.

I think its worth remembering that gay culture evolved in secret. Openly gay, and there stable and monogamous gay, relationships were strongly looked down upon if not outright illegal. This started to change 35 years ago, but it still has a ways to go.

Encouraging monogamy would seem appropriate. Allowing marriage is certainly one tool. Allowing gays in high school the same latitude given to heterosexuals is another, and may even be more important. After all, it is in high school that individuals negotiate their values & attitudes and get their first experiences of romantic relationships. Dating, the idea of “going steady”, wasn’t permitted to gays in the past. But if this changes, as it seems to be happening, then I think we can look for increased monogamy in the future.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The number is probably high however monogamy is a serious problem for gay couples because they lack the cross bonding design into the men and woman relationship. Just more to prove it is disordered thinking.

Monogamy is a serious problem for ALL relationships homosexual or heterosexual. Homosexuals are burdened by decades of laws and social pressure to hide their true selves. This does not help the process of socialization into a monogamous situation. Since hetrerosexuals still do it quite poorly, it’s asking a lot of homosexuals to be at the same level even. They will catch up in time, as more and more people and states recognize the efficacy of gay marriage which encourages obviously monogamy. At least one can expect that they will approach the rather low standard set by heterosexuals!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

At least one can expect that they will approach the rather low standard set by heterosexuals!

That ‘low standard’ of which you speak is not only a statistical anomaly (God save us from statisticians!), it reflects a particular culture and societal time that is as cataclysmic in its way as the Black Death. It does not reflect the ‘average’ standard of not only marriage, but of heterosexual people and their ‘behavior’ as well.

Why are you applying the ‘nadir’ of the ‘low standard’ (itself only a ‘blip’ in the whole marriage time line’) instead of the thousands and thousands of years of marriage/ heterosexual actions reflecting the highest standards?

Despite the attempts to rewrite humanity into the lowest common denominator, and to attempt to portray historical figures by 21st century standards in order to prove them not just flawed, but despicably so, particularly if they happen to be considered as good ‘role models’ of 'normal average heterosexual men and women", most people tired of the sensationalism and the pseudo historians and discount that ‘skeptical’ bias so prevalent in late 20th century ‘scholarship’.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

The church teaches homosexuality is disordered thought and the subject here reinforces that. Heterosexual studies show promiscuity occurs in short periods (like early adulthood, or divorce) and exists much more in TV than life. This is because Natural Law bonds the man and woman in long term relationships. It is a mistake to believe changing the civil law changes the behavior. Homosexuals lack this natural bonding. It does not mean homosexual cannot have long term relationships, or bond with a partner, it means they lack the design to do so. Changing social customs will not change the behavior, changing the law will not change the behavior

 

[Swan]

The church teaches homosexuality is disordered thought and the subject here reinforces that. Heterosexual studies show promiscuity occurs in short periods (like early adulthood, or divorce) and exists much more in TV than life. This is because Natural Law bonds the man and woman in long term relationships. It is a mistake to believe changing the civil law changes the behavior. Homosexuals lack this natural bonding. It does not mean homosexual cannot have long term relationships, or bond with a partner, it means they lack the design to do so. Changing social customs will not change the behavior, changing the law will not change the behavior

I always thought that the reason male homosexuals had so many sexual encouters with different men was because men generally have a stronger sex drive than women and are more likely to disassociate sex and emotion. For example, look at hetero relationships - men seem to sleep around more than women and most appear to have no trouble having sex with someone they have no emotional feelings (other than lust) for. Men say things like “but it didn’t mean anything, it was just sex” - most women have heard this line. I’ll admit that this isn’t scientific. But I don’t think the same promiscuity applies to lesbians - again because women tend to be more monogamous than men and tend to associate sex with emotional committement - yes, these are generalizations.

 

[RWMorris]

Monogamy is a serious problem for ALL relationships homosexual or heterosexual … hetrerosexuals still do it quite poorly … the rather low standard set by heterosexuals!

Sorry, but this not true. You may believe it is true and want it to me true; maybe in your circle of friends it is true. I know this is what Hollywood and the mainstream media, even academia tell us, because they so badly want it to be true to justify their own narcissism. But like so many others issues they preach to us commoners about, they are wrong.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I always thought that the reason male homosexuals had so many sexual encouters with different men was because men generally have a stronger sex drive than women and are more likely to disassociate sex and emotion. For example, look at hetero relationships - men seem to sleep around more than women and most appear to have no trouble having sex with someone they have no emotional feelings (other than lust) for. Men say things like “but it didn’t mean anything, it was just sex” - most women have heard this line. I’ll admit that this isn’t scientific. But I don’t think the same promiscuity applies to lesbians - again because women tend to be more monogamous than men and tend to associate sex with emotional committement - yes, these are generalizations.

In general I agree with most of your thoughts except I suspect even the lesbians have a poor track record for monogamy, and married men cheat less than most people believe. Additionally when they cheat as you mention it was not designed to damage the married relationship. It is not what homosexuals want but the bonding ties as cross sex relationships, and children which bind the monogamy. Simply put same sex relationships are different than cross sex relationships.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

I agree with Swan…based on what I have observed in human behavior men, naturally, tend to be more sexually driven for the purpose of sex than women. Not all men are this way and some women fit this as well…but it is a trend. Look at it scientifically and it makes sense even in the animal kingdom. The male runs around spreading his seed while the female remains monogamous to ensure genetic purity and to raise offspring. Humans are not much different but we can control our impulses, or we are supposed to.

I have a question though…what does Texas roofer mean by cheating not designed to damage the marriage relationship? I’m not sure what you are getting at…I’m sorry, but if my husband has sex for sex sake while we are married, he is out the door. Cheating is cheating…but you may mean something other than this.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I think it’s really hard to determine monogamy for gay couples because for so many years they were hidden from society. My Dad had two teachers in HS that were “roommates”-this is back in the late 1940’s. They were together for years, but sadly, when one partner had a stroke, her family put her in assisted living and denied her roommate of over 20 years any visitiation or contact. Couples who were together prior to the 1970’s would be less likely to be counted. Trying to compare statistics of heterosexual marriage against such underreported counts isn’t really possible.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…
I have a question though…what does Texas roofer mean by cheating not designed to damage the marriage relationship? I’m not sure what you are getting at…I’m sorry, but if my husband has sex for sex sake while we are married, he is out the door. Cheating is cheating…but you may mean something other than this.

Study after study shows homosexual monogamy occurs less often and when it occurs it usually is short lived.
prairienet.org/~star/polypaper.html
familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet7.html

To be specific concerning your question married men incurr to two issues 1) insecurity - which is distructive and fits the monogamy bad arguement 2) lack of relations with spouse which usually desolves the same sex couple but often does not desolve the cross sex marriage.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Study after study shows homosexual monogamy occurs less often and when it occurs it usually is short lived.
prairienet.org/~star/polypaper.html
familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet7.html

To be specific concerning your question married men incurr to two issues 1) insecurity - which is distructive and fits the monogamy bad arguement 2) lack of relations with spouse which usually desolves the same sex couple but often does not desolve the cross sex marriage.

I would respectfully suggest that the websites you linked have a vested interest in portraying homosexuality in the most negative light possible. I would not use figures from the Human Rights Campaign or any organization that was an advocate for gay rights because they would be intentionally skewed to present gays in the most positive light possible.
Unfortunately, there are not too many objective sites available to really make an educated statement on this because everyone seems to have an agenda one way or the other.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I would respectfully suggest that the websites you linked have a vested interest in portraying homosexuality in the most negative light possible. I would not use figures from the Human Rights Campaign or any organization that was an advocate for gay rights because they would be intentionally skewed to present gays in the most positive light possible.
Unfortunately, there are not too many objective sites available to really make an educated statement on this because everyone seems to have an agenda one way or the other.

If you stumble onto any good data let me know. I have no vested interest in bad data or misleading anybody. I actually started out think there would be no problem with Gay Marriage, but the more I read the more I believe there are problems, several. I am sure there are some people who would be faith monogamous partners and would share all aspects of themselves however they are rare in the SSA group. I am convinced the Church is correct the problem is in natural law. The failures in cross sex marriage are real also but not equal to the SSA condition.

 

[Fitswimmer]

If you stumble onto any good data let me know. I have no vested interest in bad data or misleading anybody. I actually started out think there would be no problem with Gay Marriage, but the more I read the more I believe there are problems, several. I am sure there are some people who would be faith monogamous partners and would share all aspects of themselves however they are rare in the SSA group. I am convinced the Church is correct the problem is in natural law. The failures in cross sex marriage are real also but not equal to the SSA condition.

I’ve been hunting too, but I can’t find anything that isn’t skewed either one way or another. I think that’s because of what I said earlier, that there is no way to quantify long term data on gay couples since they were “underground” for so many years. Any data availible is primarily anecdotal. It’s easy to measure statistics on divorce, and even adultery in heterosexual relationships as divorce records are legal documents that include the reasons the marriage broke up.

 

[Nate415]

For Catholics, the nature of marriage should be quite clear. Read Matthew 19:1-12. There is no ambiguity in Jesus’ teaching here. In fact, He mentions Eunuchs from birth, essentially those unable to marry because they are created that way which sounds like homosexuals to me.

The pastoral care of homosexuals is a tricky issue because chastity may be their only option, and chastity is not a virtue rewarded highly in our culture.

However, I have good things about the Courage ministry to homosexuals from the Catholic Church.

 

[Fitswimmer]

For Catholics, the nature of marriage should be quite clear. Read Matthew 19:1-12. There is no ambiguity in Jesus’ teaching here. In fact, He mentions Eunuchs from birth, essentially those unable to marry because they are created that way which sounds like homosexuals to me.

The pastoral care of homosexuals is a tricky issue because chastity may be their only option, and chastity is not a virtue rewarded highly in our culture.

However, I have good things about the Courage ministry to homosexuals from the Catholic Church.

It’s also a very high burden to place on people. Unlike Priests and religious, the chaste homosexual is alone. He/She has no community. Unlike the rest of society, there’s nobody to grow old with, no children, no grandchildren and nothing in common with the people around them.

Courage is very underground. Many who are involved wish to remain anonymous and there are very few groups around. There are none in my diocese. Also, it’s mostly men. I know it has helped many people, but there is also an undercurrent of “you can be cured and be normal” that turns just as many off.

 

[Nate415]

It’s also a very high burden to place on people. Unlike Priests and religious, the chaste homosexual is alone. He/She has no community. Unlike the rest of society, there’s nobody to grow old with, no children, no grandchildren and nothing in common with the people around them.

Courage is very underground. Many who are involved wish to remain anonymous and there are very few groups around. There are none in my diocese. Also, it’s mostly men. I know it has helped many people, but there is also an undercurrent of “you can be cured and be normal” that turns just as many off.

All unmarried people are supposed to be chaste. This is a very difficult thing to do for many people, particularly in today’s society. Chastity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and a virtue (CCC 2337, 1832) which sounds more like a gift and a grace - not a burden. Granted the Lord doesn’t make it easy! But is a cross just a burden, or an opportunity for holiness and chance to experience remarkable grace!?

The idea that single people miss out on a lot that married people get to do is a false dichotomy. Instead, compare what married people miss out on that the chaste single person misses out on, then compare what the chaste single person has to their advantage compared to the advantages of married life.

For example: I have an Aunt who has never married, not even boyfriends to my knowledge for a very very long time, and she has a tremendous amount of freedom(she travels a lot), disposable income, gets to dote on nieces & nephews and grand nieces and grand nephews, has a successful career in nursing aided by the freedom of being able to work third shift. In addion, my mother had at least two Aunts who never married, and had plenty to do between work, extended family(who cared for them in their later years), hobbies, pets, Church life etc…

Chastity may be hard, but being single has its advantages and disadvantages just like marriage has its advantages and disadvantages.

Courage does not press the cure issue, from what I understand. Undercurrent there might be, but I don’t believe it’s overt, nor do they try to ‘cure’ everyone who attends, but support is always available. From what I understand, they are much more supportive and caring than a lot of other chaste homosexual missions throughout Christendom.

 

[RyanL]

This site seems to have some good references - U.S. Census Bureau, Journals of this-and-that, etc. - so take the references for what they’re worth. Most of the references are from the late '90s and early 2000’s, and I’m willing to bet that’s about as good as you’re going to find – I’m doubtful many universities are chomping at the bit to fund wide-ranging surveys about how promiscuous actively homosexual folks can be…but call me cynical.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[toekneemac]

I agree with Swan…based on what I have observed in human behavior men, naturally, tend to be more sexually driven for the purpose of sex than women. Not all men are this way and some women fit this as well…but it is a trend. Look at it scientifically and it makes sense even in the animal kingdom. The male runs around spreading his seed while the female remains monogamous to ensure genetic purity and to raise offspring. Humans are not much different but we can control our impulses, or we are supposed to.

I have a question though…what does Texas roofer mean by cheating not designed to damage the marriage relationship? I’m not sure what you are getting at…I’m sorry, but if my husband has sex for sex sake while we are married, he is out the door. Cheating is cheating…but you may mean something other than this.

In my life, I have seen more women cheat than men.