Gay Persecution Around the World

[Poussin]

It was my impression that all human life is precious. Christ gave me that impression. I don’t see him prioritizing one form of human life over another when it comes to His Mercy and Compassion. I don’t see why we can’t pray for an end to both atrocities… an end to abortion and an end to persecution of homosexuals.

This so called ‘discrimination’ is not the taking of a human life. State’s are allowed to make laws against behaviors they find abhorrent. There is no moral equivalency in equating abortion to disagreement with state based laws against criminal behavior. Adding a few sensationalized terms such as ‘atrocity’ and ‘persecution’ only serves to politicize the issue not to equate them.

The Church has not remained ‘silent’ as you say, they merely have not refocused resources toward supporting mostly secular political agendas. The Church also tells us to respect the murder, the imprisoned, etc., that is not the same as saying the behavior should be made legal. Respect and dignity does not equate to interfere with legitimate state interests against certain behaviors.

 

[Mark86]

This so called ‘discrimination’ is not the taking of a human life. State’s are allowed to make laws against behaviors they find abhorrent. There is no moral equivalency in equating abortion to disagreement with state based laws against criminal behavior.

And if a State is killing repentant baptized Christians who have been merely “suspected” of homosexuality, drawing and quartering them in the streets on the mere suspicion, without due process, and hoisting their body parts on spikes… is this something the Church of Christ wants to endorse? Certainly not. This is something objectively, morally evil, and contrary to Christian morality. Why should such a State as Uganda get a pass on this abhorrent, un-Christian practice? The Church teaches that all human life has dignity and inestimable value, and should not be destroyed for whatever political fancies the un-Godly dictators in these regimes want to enforce on their populace.

I believe in standing up against blatant human rights abuses around the world, the Church promotes a powerful message of love and charity. When certain people within it attempt to close the mercy of Christ off to “certain groups,” then the Church falls short of its holy mission and loses opportunities to serve the downtrodden and evangelize.

Opposition to abortion is important. I’m not saying it isn’t important. I’m not saying it isn’t a critical issue in our times. What I am saying is that reaching out and being the Hope of the oppressed and persecuted all over the world (who happen to suffer with homosexuality), is also a critical issue. Can anyone give me a reason why we shouldn’t pray for the end to these abhorrent “culture of death” persecution practices waged against innocent persons both suspected of and suffering with homosexuality?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Mark, actually we don’t all know that homosexuality is a disorder, in fact, many of us Catholics and non Catholics alike do not see anything wrong with homosexuality, do not think it is a sin, or think expressing that in any way, even sexual, is wrong or disordered.

Therefore, while it seems your intention is good, it feels like kind of a bait, in the same vain as “love the sinner, hate the sin.” As from the vast threads already on the subject of homosexuality, it seems that those who believe in the “love the sinner, hate the sin” cannot seem to differentiate the 2, and thus somehow feel discrimination and hatred towards gay people IS justifiable, which is quite sad and sickening.

I agree that no one in this world should be persecuted for their color, their religious beliefs, their gender, or their sexuality. Happy new Year and let’s all hope, pray, and lead our lives with tolerance, respect, peace and most of all
love towards our neighbors and our enemies.

The bold- I see. Since I’m one of those “love the sinner, hate the sin” people would you mind citing some of my past posts in which I apparently couldn’t differentiate the two? Granted in some of the threads I was on I was pretty much labeled as an agent of the “gay lobby” because I refused to go along with the rather vocal and rather minor minority that seem to conclude being homosexual and engaging in homosexual behavior are the same, but I’m sure you’ll be able to find some sort of comment of mine that justifies your rather broad and inaccurate generalization.

 

[Poussin]

And if a State is killing repentant baptized Christians who have been merely “suspected” of homosexuality, drawing and quartering them in the streets on the mere suspicion, without due process, and hoisting their body parts on spikes… is this something the Church of Christ wants to endorse? Certainly not. This is something objectively, morally evil, and contrary to Christian morality. Why should such a State as Uganda get a pass on this abhorrent, un-Christian practice? The Church teaches that all human life has dignity and inestimable value, and should not be destroyed for whatever political fancies the un-Godly dictators in these regimes want to enforce on their populace.

I believe in standing up against blatant human rights abuses around the world, the Church promotes a powerful message of love and charity. When certain people within it attempt to close the mercy of Christ off to “certain groups,” then the Church falls short of its holy mission and loses opportunities to serve the downtrodden and evangelize.

Opposition to abortion is important. I’m not saying it isn’t important. I’m not saying it isn’t a critical issue in our times. What I am saying is that reaching out and being the Hope of the oppressed and persecuted all over the world (who happen to suffer with homosexuality), is also a critical issue. Can anyone give me a reason why we shouldn’t pray for the end to these abhorrent “culture of death” persecution practices waged against innocent persons both suspected of and suffering with homosexuality?

You have not cited a single example in which there was a lack of due process. You cited examples of imprisonment but there is no indication in your examples in your prior post that due process was not involved. In any country, if you break the law, you suffer the penalty; that is not novel to homosexuality, and there is no indication provided why they should get a pass.

You say they are ‘innocent persons’ but have established nothing of the kind; at least not in terms of the legal code of their country. Simply making assertions that they are innocent and there was a lack of due process without demonstrating any of the sort, merely colors your position in political agenda and no real sense of justice and fairness in terms of Church doctrine.

Again, the Church holds that the murderer deserves their sense of dignity and respect, but that does not equate to not making murder a crime worthy of imprisonment, if not death. Certain crimes do not raise above that same reproach merely because they are politically popular to support.

 

[Mark86]

Again, the Church holds that the murderer deserves their sense of dignity and respect, but that does not equate to not making murder a crime worthy of imprisonment, if not death. Certain crimes do not raise above that same reproach merely because they are politically popular to support.

Well I respect the fact that you feel that way. You are free to go “respect the dignity” of those human lives as they hang in the gallows.

But as for me, I will pray for them that their chains will be lifted.

 

[cena]

You have not cited a single example in which there was a lack of due process. You cited examples of imprisonment but there is no indication in your examples in your prior post that due process was not involved. In any country, if you break the law, you suffer the penalty; that is not novel to homosexuality, and there is no indication provided why they should get a pass.

You say they are ‘innocent persons’ but have established nothing of the kind; at least not in terms of the legal code of their country. Simply making assertions that they are innocent and there was a lack of due process without demonstrating any of the sort, merely colors your position in political agenda and no real sense of justice and fairness in terms of Church doctrine.

Again, the Church holds that the murderer deserves their sense of dignity and respect, but that does not equate to not making murder a crime worthy of imprisonment, if not death. Certain crimes do not raise above that same reproach merely because they are politically popular to support.

I think he was saying those who just have homosexual inclinations, even if they don’t act on it, are persecuted. I don’t support homosexual actions at all ever, but it’s not just to kill someone for temptations

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I would first proffer that most of the ‘discrimination’ is not a violation of human rights. Most of the press is regarding the right to marry, and you first need to establish that marriage between same sex couples is a human right or there is no violation. A politically popular position does not become a human right just because it gets a lot of press.

And actual unjust discrimination and persecution (being beaten for being homosexual, prison time for engaging in homosexual behavior, etc) doesn’t suddenly become just because some people incorrectly identify one thing (such as laws against “gay marriage”) as an injustice.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Hey…we gotta start somewhere. Might as well start forcing these backwards cultures to embrace our American ideals of human rights by not beheading Christians. Then we can insist that homosexuals be treated as equals. Regardless of what their primitive religious beliefs teach.

Why not start a 21st Century Crusade??

The same American ideals that don’t actually hold the act of just living to be a fundamental right? Those ideals? Yeah, I’ll stick with the ideals of the Church.

 

[PennyinCanada]

The Church has always stood for the dignity of the human person from conception to natural death. Imagine, countries who could care less about what the Church teaches. That is nothing new. There has been murder, wars, crimes against humanity since the beginning.

Our Lady asked for prayers and sacrifices for the conversion of sinners and peace in this world when she came to Fatima in 1917. 70,000 people witnessed the sun dance, among other supernatural events. She had predictions for what the world would be like if we didn’t do as she asked. We are seeing what our neglect of her requests have brought us. One of the most powerful things we can do, the ordinary Catholic in the pew, is to pray the Rosary every day and to offer our prayers, sacrifices and difficulties for this intention. When you ask ‘what is the Church doing…’ regardless of the subject, ordinary Catholics have been laboring in the field of God for decades. We will not realize the power and grace they have brought down upon the world until it is revealed in the coming of Christ the King.

So I will ask you, have you been praying the Rosary daily for our Blessed Mother’s intentions? Have you made an effort to pull down graces from the Throne of God for the salvation of souls? May we all put our heads down and get to work in the fields.

 

[Poussin]

And actual unjust discrimination and persecution (being beaten for being homosexual, prison time for engaging in homosexual behavior, etc) doesn’t suddenly become just because some people incorrectly identify one thing (such as laws against “gay marriage”) as an injustice.

No examples have been offered of any state beating or imprisoning anyone for their homosexuality in which there was not an actual law against homosexuality. No, you should not imprison someone if the law does not make the alleged action a crime. I would agree, but that is not what is happening. The state has a legitimate interest in criminalizing certain behaviors, and it does not rise to a human right violation every time they enforce their criminal code just because the law is not politically popular in a different country.

Human right violations would tend to occur if there is a lack of due process in enforcing the criminal code or if the punishment could be deemed cruel and unusual. Whether that is the case has not been established by any examples provided so far in this thread.

 

[Mark86]

Human right violations would tend to occur if there is a lack of due process in enforcing the criminal code or if the punishment could be deemed cruel and unusual. Whether that is the case has not been established by any examples provided so far in this thread.

Something tells me you wouldn’t believe it even if I gave you links, you’re that dead set against any effort to pray for this particular group of people and an end to what the Church calls “unjust discrimination” against them. If you are waiting for me to post some kind of link just for you to look for ways to ‘debunk it’… then there’s really no point to what I’m going to endeavor to do.

I’m not sure exactly what you want. If I give you “one documented case”… you’re going to say it holds no merit because, after all, it’s “only” one documented case. If I offer you unjust laws that persecute not just homosexuals but also those who try to treat them or give them food, you will say that the state of Uganda has a “right” to, merely on suspicion of homosexuality (or helping homosexuals): “Fire them from their jobs, expel them from their villages, evict them from their homes, burn their houses, subject them to torture and beatings, and murder them.” Is there nothing that a state can do against its “allegedly gay” citizens (or those who help them) that will make the charity of Christ necessary there?

Let’s just focus on Uganda for a minute, since you seem to require explicit evidence of wrongdoing before your compassion for others can be wrested from you…

“For many years, the Ugandan tabloid, Red Pepper has purposely targeted alleged gay, lesbian and transgender people, outing them in the print magazine, often using pictures accompanied by pervasive rhetoric…”

independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/ugandan-newspaper-publishes-200-top-homosexuals-list-9152442.html

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/btb/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/RedPepper2014.03.01inside.jpeg

Notice, “alleged” homosexuals shamed in front of the entire country so that they can be targets of people’s hostility before any “charges” are made against them.

http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/red_pepper_gays_in_uganda_thumb.jpg

Where in Catholic practice is this acceptable? It’s not. It’s called Detraction and Calumny, sins against charity. This of course in a country where such detraction and calumny against one’s neighbor results in the legal sanction of imprisonment and death (2014 Ugandan Anti-Homosexuality bill) and the cultural sanction of being deprived of home, family, job, and in many cases, life, before charges can be even made to the effect.

How can this be acceptable?

 

[bisco1]

we had a visiting priest from uganda this summer. i wish i had known about this.

 

[Mark86]

For the record, I understand that the 2014 Anti-Homosexuality Bill in Uganda was determined “invalid” in August, but the government that signed it into law is currently appealing to the Ugandan Supreme Court to overturn the decision of the Constitutional Court, which is likely to happen.

monitor.co.ug/News/National/Government-to-petition-court-over-anti-gay-law-ruling/-/688334/2405248/-/3linyez/-/index.html

In the meantime though, the bill’s presence, along with the fact of the strong cultural hatred of homosexuals have colluded to increase the incidence of unjust persecution against anyone alleged to be gay in Uganda, according to this study:

theguardian.com/world/2014/may/12/uganda-anti-gay-law-rise-attacks

This contributed to a rise of between 750% and 1,900% in homophobic incidents compared to previous years. A large number of medical personnel from the UN and other countries have left in protest of the bill.

Also consider the Church itself voices opposition to the Bill:

“Uganda’s Catholic Archbishop of Kampala Cyprian Lwanga stated in December 2009 that the bill was unnecessary and “at odds with the core values” of Christianity, expressing particular concerns at the death penalty provisions. Lwanga argued that instead homosexuals should be encouraged to seek rehabilitation.”

monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/840276/-/wh9b6q/-/index.html

So if they can, why is it beyond possibility for us to do the same?

 

[QuasiCatholic]

… Then we can insist that homosexuals be treated as equals. Regardless of what their primitive religious beliefs teach…

You do realize almost half of Uganda – about 42% – is Roman Catholic, right? And their president is an Anglican.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

The same American ideals that don’t actually hold the act of just living to be a fundamental right? Those ideals? Yeah, I’ll stick with the ideals of the Church.

That’s great Oldcatholicguy. I can go along with that. Let us re-establish the Knights Templar, ask a blessing from the Vatican, and invade Uganda.

I am sure we could expect some support from a few other countries who would want to “hold the act of just living to be a fundamental right.” After we put all the Ugandans to the sword we could establish a safe haven for homosexuals. Their own country, so to speak.

Think about it. Rainbow Nation…or whatever they would want to call it. Of course it would only exist for one generation. Without reproduction there wouldn’t be many citizens left…

Oh well…for one brief moment we had Camelot.

 

[Mark86]

Think about it. Rainbow Nation…or whatever they would want to call it. Of course it would only exist for one generation. Without reproduction there wouldn’t be many citizens left…

Or we could, you know, pray for gays who are unjustly persecuted around the world.

That’s all I was saying.

It’s not hard for God to love those who are unjustly persecuted on the basis of having a sexual disorder. It’s just hard to convince some Catholics to pray for them.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Or we could, you know, pray for gays who are unjustly persecuted around the world.

That’s all I was saying.

It’s not hard for God to love those who are unjustly persecuted on the basis of having a sexual disorder. It’s just hard to convince some Catholics to pray for them.

Of course we could pray for gays (who really need prayers) but I think we need ACTION.

Remember "the Church Militant".

We MUST get out there and do something. Prayer is important …but Catholic Action is called for.

I propose an invasion of Uganda by a New Age Holy Roman Catholic Crusade. After they are forced into complete submission we can establish a Roman Catholic form of government based on Cannon Law.

Think about the message this would send to those other barbarian cultures who behead Christians. They would be shaking in their boots. They would ask themselves…if that is what the Crusaders do to countries that mistreat homosexuals…imagine what they will do to us…who behead Christians???

Prayer is important for our overall victory…but real Catholic Action is what is called for.

 

[Mark86]

Think about the message this would send to those other barbarian cultures who behead Christians. They would be shaking in their boots. They would ask themselves…if that is what the Crusaders do to countries that mistreat homosexuals…imagine what they will do to us…who behead Christians???

While I do think action is called for, and certainly prayer is an action…

I’m not really sure what to make of your posts. They seem to me to be heavily sarcastic and condescending almost, just because I’m finding it difficult to take them seriously. At the same time, I’m not really sure what you’re trying to get at or what you may be attempting to do with speaking as hyperbolic as it appears you’re doing. Just as well, I’m also not even sure if you’re actually serious either. A few possibilities present themselves, and I could be wrong… but you are either serious about wanting to kill Ugandans, or you’re trying to be hyperbolic to make any show of compassion on this issue to look just as silly in some kind of condescending way.

I’m a very direct person, so I don’t get sarcasm and irony very much at all.

 

[Poussin]

Something tells me you wouldn’t believe it even if I gave you links, you’re that dead set against any effort to pray for this particular group of people and an end to what the Church calls “unjust discrimination” against them. If you are waiting for me to post some kind of link just for you to look for ways to ‘debunk it’… then there’s really no point to what I’m going to endeavor to do.

I do not feel compassion nor am I persuaded merely because I am being shouted at. I have merely asked that it be established there is a human right violation before we chastise an entity for human right violations.

I’m not sure exactly what you want. If I give you “one documented case”… you’re going to say it holds no merit because, after all, it’s “only” one documented case.

I want evidence of human rights violations, not mere evidence of a community enforcing its criminal code. If your examples are not sufficient to raise to that level, the foul is not mine.

If I offer you unjust laws that persecute not just homosexuals but also those who try to treat them or give them food, you will say that the state of Uganda has a “right” to, merely on suspicion of homosexuality (or helping homosexuals) …: "

Offer evidence of unjust laws, and we can concretely determine how I would respond. Right now I have been offered a bunch of hypotheticals not supported by the examples provided. A law is not unjust just because it is not politically popular in a different country.

You provided no source for your quote. Did you quote Uganda law, or merely a tabloid? A tabloid does not violate human rights by merely printing an opinion.

Let’s just focus on Uganda for a minute, since you seem to require explicit evidence of wrongdoing before your compassion for others can be wrested from you…

Your evidence is a tabloid opinion? Really? You are not going to ‘wrest’ compassion from very many if you think the Catholic Church should focus its efforts on suppressing a tabloids right to free speech.

Where in Catholic practice is this acceptable? It’s not. It’s called Detraction and Calumny, sins against charity. ,…

I suppose the issue is one of how you define ‘charity’. I have not ever seen it established that Catholic Charity consists of interfering with legitimate state interests to enforce its criminal code without violation of due process. I have not ever see it established that charity consists of suppressing a tabloids right to free speech. If anything, charity consists of respecting the laws and opinions of others that we may politically disagree and allow other cultures some sense of self determination (within limits). Now, if you can give me an example, of the country of Uganda withholding food from someone charged with homosexual acts, then, you may ‘wrest’ some compassion from me. However, a tabloid advocating such an act is not the same as the state actually acting.

 

[Semelovich]

Homosexuality is certainly a disorder.

Anti-scientific and anti-natural nonsense.

The only reason it was ever removed in the early 70s from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is because a bunch of homosexual “activists” barged into a conference of psychologists and demanded as such

That doesn’t even come close to what actually happened. Outrageous lies spread by those involved with religious cults that have been hostile towards homosexual people for thousand years and that stood behind the beginning of the mass persecution of homosexual people that began with the spread of Christianity(historical fact) using the words of their god written in their so-called “holy books”

this thread seems to have an agenda

It sure does:
1)Protection of innocent people who face jail sentences and executions because of their biological trait.
2)Enforcing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights around the Globe.

I am not surprised that there are Catholics in this thread that support persecution of gay people, support Nazi ideology that lies behind all these atrocities and crimes against humanity. It’s not surprising at all considering that Christian god directly ordered a genocide of gay people in the most gruesome way back then.It is written so in
the Bible, The Old Testament.

I want evidence of human rights violations

Re-read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, then , perhaps, you realize what you and the likes of you stand for but I doubt it.

Disgusting.

PS It’s hilarious how some Catholic try to justify this persecution by “traditions, cultural differences and laws” of other countries. Need I remind you that persecution of Catholics in Muslim countries can be justified by that too. Exactly the same situation.Their god also issued some terrible orders that Christians wouldn’t like either to say the least.