Gay pride priest

[Almost_convert]

Before I start I want to explain that I understand and agree with the church’s teaching on same sex attraction and that it is the actions and dwelling on impure thoughts that are sinful but not the attraction.

However, in my diocese there is an openly (in his own words) gay priest whose homilies contain an unmistakable agenda to promote a more “open view” of sexuality. In one in particular, he even refers to “poor St. Paul” who was influenced by his Greek culture to be a dualist and see the body as bad (he even claimed its because Paul was a Greek - which last I checked he was a Jew), and that we need to celebrate our sexuality. He said Jesus was incarnated and so he had sexual thoughts and desires too.

A simple google search of this priests name comes up with many hits all associated with some homosexual activism.

This summer he was on our local news for hosting an “interfaith gay pride prayer service” in his parish - gay pride flags hanging throughout.

Never in any sermon or quote have I found him qualifying this seeming obsession with sex and homosexuality by saying anything along the lines of it being sinful. He even jokes about people confessing sexual sins as them being stuck in that “Paul dualism - where the body and sex are evil” and that they need to celebrate it.

I am about to come into the Catholic Church in Easter from a Protestant background. I love the church and this will not sway me, but my question is…

How long does this blatant disregard for the teachings of the church go on before the bishop steps in?

Is this normal for a bishop to allow a priest to mock the faith this way, and to confuse people and lead them into sin?

Anyone struggling with any sexual sin who went to this guys parish would eventually feel as though they were doing nothing wrong.

How can a bishop allow this man to essentially lead souls to hell not Christ.

I don’t mean to be harsh but what else are we talking about if we accept our sexual sins as okay and in fact something to celebrate.

Please help me out here

 

[Rau]

To the OP - please communicate your very understandable questions to the Bishop. His response would be interesting.

 

[KrazyKat]

This is definitely not okay. You should speak with the Bishop. If he does not stop this where do you go? Personally I do not know. Maybe the Vatican as the Pope assigns the bishops?

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will post here. This is very interesting.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Speak to your Bishop.

 

[trickster]

I am glad that you have spoken what you thought. One of our problems as Catholics though is that we have not understood the catechism. Homosexuality as part of nature is not sinful but the acting upon it is. There are many problems with the teaching and the church acknowledges it; the church for examples does not know if the root cause is biological or psychological. If it is biological then we as Catholics will be challenged to look deeper into what we had thought.

The gay priest you talk about is not entirely wrong, much of Christianity was influenced by Paul as opposed to Peter. Paul, you are correct is Jewish, BUT he was the apostle that supported the development of Hellenistic Judaism and the role of the Greek and Roman culture into the Christian faith. Many of our notions about a perfect heaven and an (name removed by moderator)erfect world come from Greek philosophy and sources in gnosticsm that reject all things within creation.

Now the catechism is clear, and you are correct…but here’s the problem. There are many catholics who remain judgemental and ignorant about homosexuality. (First of all I reject the notion of homo and hetero and I am certain that the creator made us human beings with one sexuality). The emphasis of catholic programs might as well be “pray away the gay”…which is clearly setting up a traumatic person who - through no fault of their own - find themselves “gay”. We need to find ways of accepting people on their own grounds, on their own beliefs and loving them in the full manner due to their dignity as fellow creatures. We should not be trying to convert them to “heterosexuality” that will happen within their own spirituality and walk.

Bishops of course need to be contacted and I agree with the other responsdants, but remember the catholic community is not fully agreed upon this…

Now, in terms of the GLBT community they have a public right to pursue an agenda and yes they do. How we think that the church can be sheltered from gay politics or liberation politics or gawd forbid republican politics I am not sure…yet activist in gay politics are somehow judged as bad compared to the judgement one gets from catholic friends about their activism in liberation politics or republican politics… lot of inconsistencies we show as catholics…that is why we have bishops…so yeah…talk to the bishop and work out your feelings and thoughts with your local shepherd or his representatives.

 

[yinekka]

Address your concerns in a charitable, objective, manner to the priest. If there is no reply or his reply does not agree with the teaching of the Church send the original question plus the reply to the bishop and ask for his advice. If this reply is less than satisfactory send all material to the nuncio. If this reply is less than satisfactory send all correspondence to the Congregation for the Clergy in Rome.

Good luck finding all of the addresses.

 

[JerryZ]

Interesting comments, especially those blaming St. Paul for his stance on “sexual” sins. So we are supposed to think that it is all the fault of the Greek culture and let’s throw in the Roman culture also in the mix.

Why don’t you people read the Old and New Testaments?

Sexual sins were SINS well before Jesus came to earth and before any one says that He abolished the LAW please please HE DID NOT.
He fullfilled it which is quite different.
Let’s have an example shall we?
Sexual SIN shall remain so until the end of times and we need to obbey the 10 commandments with the light of Jesus which is quite more involved from what He is teaching us in the passages of St. Matthew.

Matthew
5:17 Do not think that I have come to loosen the law or the prophets. I have not come to loosen, but to fulfill.
5:18 Amen I say to you, certainly, until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota, not one dot shall pass away from the law, until all is done.
5:19 Therefore, whoever will have loosened one of the least of these commandments, and have taught men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever will have done and taught these, such a one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say to you, that unless your justice has surpassed that of the scribes and the Pharisees you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
5:21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients: ‘You shall not murder; whoever will have murdered shall be liable to judgment.’
5:22 But I say to you, that anyone who becomes angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment. But whoever will have called his brother, ‘Idiot,’ shall be liable to the council. Then, whoever will have called him, ‘Worthless,’ shall be liable to the fires of Hell.

To the OP yes ask the priest in writing on your doubts and see what he responds, if it is not satisfactory send both your query and his response to the Bishop.

Peace

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

In my humble opinion I would write to the Bishop and let him decide, if you get know where send your correspondence to the Papal Nuncio every Country has one.

 

[polytropos]

I can’t see anything you’ve said so far that shows he is telling people to “accept their sexual sins” …

The Church has a very specific stance on homosexuality, which, according to the OP, the priest is not representing. It is true that it’s important that the Church be open, welcoming, and understanding to those with same-sex attraction. He was involved in an “interfaith gay pride parade” and jokes about “Paul dualism.” He implies that in endorsing this “Paul dualism” we are treating the body and sex as sinful - which is practically a caricature of Church teaching.

The body is good. Sex is good, in the context of marriage. Homosexuality is not a sin. But homosexual acts are, and that has nothing to do with the body or sex per se. We don’t believe that homosexual acts are sinful because we have some skewed “Paul dualism,” and the fact that the body is good and sex is good does not imply that everything related to the body and sex are good. I would be suspicious of any priest who fails to convey these nuances.

He does joke about people who confess sexual sins and says that they “need to celebrate it.” That seems dangerously close to “accepting sexual sins” - at least close enough that, without qualification, it could lead people astray.

 

[mdgspencer]

I suggest writing the bishop. If you do, you should also send evidence of what you say, at the same time.

 

[sw85]

I am about to come into the Catholic Church in Easter from a Protestant background. I love the church and this will not sway me, but my question is…

How long does this blatant disregard for the teachings of the church go on before the bishop steps in?

Is this normal for a bishop to allow a priest to mock the faith this way, and to confuse people and lead them into sin?

The answer to this question is “it depends entirely on the bishop.” I don’t imagine your bishop could be completely ignorant of what’s going on but it’s possible he has been misled or not informed of everything, that the offending priest is being sheltered by someone in the diocesan curia, etc. I wouldn’t rush to the conclusion that the bishop is secretly sympathetic to his cause but I guess that’s a possibility now, too; there are some renegade bishops, as well, after all, although they are mostly gone. Maybe he has his reasons for not acting, though I can’t imagine what they would be.

The advice to write to the bishop is good. I would, if possible, get other concerned parishioners to join you in doing so. Include evidence if possible, maybe a recorded video of an especially pernicious homily, photographs of the gay pride banners, etc. Write to the bishop several times, maybe three times total over the course of 6-8 months. You will likely not get a response. If you do not, write to the Papal Nuncio as has been suggested, and consider writing to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome, which has jurisdiction over matters like this. Always, in every case, keep your letters brief and concise. Do not presume to lecture. Simply state the facts and your personal concern.

I am glad that you have spoken what you thought. One of our problems as Catholics though is that we have not understood the catechism. Homosexuality as part of nature is not sinful but the acting upon it is. There are many problems with the teaching and the church acknowledges it; the church for examples does not know if the root cause is biological or psychological. If it is biological then we as Catholics will be challenged to look deeper into what we had thought.

The gay priest you talk about is not entirely wrong, much of Christianity was influenced by Paul as opposed to Peter. Paul, you are correct is Jewish, BUT he was the apostle that supported the development of Hellenistic Judaism and the role of the Greek and Roman culture into the Christian faith. Many of our notions about a perfect heaven and an (name removed by moderator)erfect world come from Greek philosophy and sources in gnosticsm that reject all things within creation.

Now the catechism is clear, and you are correct…but here’s the problem. There are many catholics who remain judgemental and ignorant about homosexuality. (First of all I reject the notion of homo and hetero and I am certain that the creator made us human beings with one sexuality). The emphasis of catholic programs might as well be “pray away the gay”…which is clearly setting up a traumatic person who - through no fault of their own - find themselves “gay”. We need to find ways of accepting people on their own grounds, on their own beliefs and loving them in the full manner due to their dignity as fellow creatures. We should not be trying to convert them to “heterosexuality” that will happen within their own spirituality and walk.

Bishops of course need to be contacted and I agree with the other responsdants, but remember the catholic community is not fully agreed upon this…

Now, in terms of the GLBT community they have a public right to pursue an agenda and yes they do. How we think that the church can be sheltered from gay politics or liberation politics or gawd forbid republican politics I am not sure…yet activist in gay politics are somehow judged as bad compared to the judgement one gets from catholic friends about their activism in liberation politics or republican politics… lot of inconsistencies we show as catholics…that is why we have bishops…so yeah…talk to the bishop and work out your feelings and thoughts with your local shepherd or his representatives.

No. In your zeal to show pastoral tact to homosexuals you are going too far. First of all, accusing St. Paul of, essentially, gnosticism, besides being an obvious falsehood, is a grave offense to the piety we owe the saints and a slander against the Church, as well. It is simply false. If sex were evil we’d all be expected to give it up, not just priests and religious. But we’re not, because it’s not evil – it is in fact so good that it needs to be protected. Acts against the sanctity of the marital bed are essentially acts of desecration. Moreover, homosexuals do not “have a public right” to agitate for same-sex “marriage” if you mean “right” in the moral sense. There is no right to do evil. If you mean “right” in the civil sense, well, that may be so, but who cares?

 

[TARRAT]

I suggest writing the bishop. If you do, you should also send evidence of what you say, at the same time.

I don’t know if it will help. There is a shortage of priests.

 

[Almost_convert]

From th OP

Thank you all for the advice - I can’t imagine our bishop is unaware since the gay pride event was covered by local tv stations.

I will move forward in writing to the bishop - the awkward part is that it is not my parish but I feel he is public enough that I can speak up - and all his homilies are in PDF form on the parish website

 

[Petaro]

The acceptance of homosexual priests has split the Church of England between a liberal rump remaining, increasingly irrelevant, in Britain and the evangelical African church. It is vital that the Catholic Church retains its commitment to the Biblical basis of Her faith. This requires strong Bishops. From afar, it appears that the American Church is undergoing a crisis. It’s largest association of nuns is in open war with the Vatican; the Gay lobby is increasingly finding acceptance within some elements of the Church and is finding oxygen in an increasingly arrogant atheism and demands for gay marriage and other linguistic ‘equalities’. Many in the Church cannot see the insidious nature of this social movement. If you take over and change the meaning of words accepted by a society to another meaning you subvert the value of that word sociologically. We can only pray for strong bishops under the leadership of a good Pope, remembering that the devil will never overcome the Church of Christ. However remember also, that for evil to prosper it only requires good men to do nothing. I am highly cynical that the Bishop does not appreciate the problem. We as a group of Catholics had to go above our Bishop to Rome to get rid of an heretical priest in the local seminary. So the action of a few good people can impact on the administration of the Church. Write to the Bishop, your first loyalty it to him.

 

[1AugustSon7]

One of our problems as Catholics though is that we have not understood the catechism.

Go figure: whenever we discuss the Church’s teaching on homosexuality someone always comes along with the absurd suggestion that the Church’s teaching on the subject is deeply esoteric and most Catholics are too stupid to understand it.

Now this fairy tale has many problems, not the least of which is the fact that the Church condemns homosexual activity on the grounds of natural law, which is the common sense reason why everyone refuses to practice it even if or when they occassionally might have the urge or attraction or temptation to do so. You don’t need to read the Catechism to understand natural moral law - that’s the whole point of arguing strictly from nature using our reason. It’s not based on Divine Revelation.

Homosexuality as part of nature

Homosexuality is in no sense a part of human nature anymore than blindness or cancer is or would be.

is not sinful but the acting upon it is.

Considered as lust it is sinful as any sexual lust is. Deliberately entertaining it is a sin.

There are many problems with the teaching and the church acknowledges it;

There are in fact no problems whatsoever with the teaching.

the church for examples does not know if the root cause is biological or psychological.

That distinction doesn’t matter regardless; and even if it is necessarily biological it would not by that fact be natural or in accordance with our nature. It makes no difference if the cause of SSA is biological or psychological or both.

If it is biological then we as Catholics will be challenged to look deeper into what we had thought.

Ridiculous. It makes no difference either way as was said above.

The gay priest you talk about is not entirely wrong,

He is entirely wrong. Saint Paul was not a dualist and it’s a sign of obstinacy for anyone to seriously believe it given the actual evidence. Any serious study of Saint Paul shows that he was not and never a dualist - and he most certainly wasn’t anything on account of Greek pagan culture: he was a highly trained Pharisee! He would have opposed any classically false Greek dichotomies and held most classically Greek teachings as dubious given that the danger that they were mixed with error or contradicted God’s Revelation and Word.

much of Christianity was influenced by Paul as opposed to Peter.

Peter versus Paul! Round 1.

Paul, you are correct is Jewish, BUT he was the apostle that supported the development of Hellenistic Judaism and the role of the Greek and Roman culture into the Christian faith.

This is a myth and not even the worst Greek pagans would have been so deluded as to believe it. This is rank historical revisionism.

Many of our notions about a perfect heaven and an (name removed by moderator)erfect world come from Greek philosophy

We get our notions of a fallen world from Genesis. We get our notion of God’s perfection, goodness and glory from Jesus and the Apostles who slavishly thought and taught in Old Testament terms and concepts.

and sources in gnosticsm that reject all things within creation.

Gnosticism was a heresy **condemned by none other than Saint Paul himself in the very Bible **!

At this point I think I have made it sufficiently clear that you have absolutely no credibility and not the faintest idea of what you are talking about.

 

[RoseMary131]

However, in my diocese there is an openly (in his own words) gay priest whose homilies contain an unmistakable agenda to promote a more “open view” of sexuality.

A simple google search of this priests name comes up with many hits all associated with some homosexual activism.

This summer he was on our local news for hosting an “interfaith gay pride prayer service” in his parish - gay pride flags hanging throughout.

Never in any sermon or quote have I found him qualifying this seeming obsession with sex and homosexuality by saying anything along the lines of it being sinful.

Have you attended his parish and his Masses? Are you certain he never says homosexual activity is sinful.

If you address this with the priest himself or with the bishop, make sure what you mention is accurate.

Saying he is obsessed with sex and obsessed with homosexuality is strong - especially if he is actually looking for people to accept people with same sex attraction as opposed to him advocating homosexual activity.

If you “report” that he never says homosexual sex is sinful and he has in fact done so, then you will not be taken seriously, as the focus will be on correcting you about when the priest did say homosexual sex is sinful.

How long does this blatant disregard for the teachings of the church go on before the bishop steps in?

The bishop may have already spoken with the priest. If this priest makes the news, the Bishop and those who work at the Diocese with the Bishop have already been very aware of what the priest did and what was on the news.

(I’m assuming you are at a different parish than this “gay pride priest”.)

If you approach your own parish priest or the bishop and ask “how long until the bishop steps in”, they may feel you are attacking the bishop when the bishop most likely is paying very close attention to this priest and most likely in close dialogue with him.

Is this normal for a bishop to allow a priest to mock the faith this way, and to confuse people and lead them into sin?

Anyone struggling with any sexual sin who went to this guys parish would eventually feel as though they were doing nothing wrong.

How can a bishop allow this man to essentially lead souls to hell not Christ.

It would be good to sit with your parish priest, let him know how concern you are with what you see on the news and on the internet about this priest. Then let him know how concern you are for what it appears to you the bishop is “not doing”.

All of the priests in the diocese are going to be very aware of this priest. You will not be the first person to come to your priest for guidance about this priest.

The media is always going to play up the priest to make it look like he is opposing the Church. Is it possible that this priest is actually trying to get people with SSA not to hate themselves? Could he be trying to help people learn to love the sinner and hate the sin? Could it be the media only wants to promote this priest as a priest filled with pride for homosexual behavior.

I don’t mean to be harsh but what else are we talking about if we accept our sexual sins as okay and in fact something to celebrate.

Please help me out here

Speak with your parish priest about your great discomfort.

Your priest will be able to help you understand why it appears this priest is celebrating sin, and why it appears the bishop is allowing the priest to lead others astray.

If the priest is teaching against Church teaching, your parish priest will be able to help you with that great distress. There will always be people within the Church who do lead others astray.

Pray for this priest. Pray for your Bishop.

 

[Joe_5859]

From th OP

Thank you all for the advice - I can’t imagine our bishop is unaware since the gay pride event was covered by local tv stations.

I will move forward in writing to the bishop - the awkward part is that it is not my parish but I feel he is public enough that I can speak up - and all his homilies are in PDF form on the parish website

That it’s not your parish may reduce what actions you can take (or what response you will receive). But even drawing the bishop’s attention to specific excerpts from his public, online homilies might make it worth writing a letter. The evidence is all right there and easy to obtain.

These issues aren’t always quickly or easily resolved, though. Even if it’s clear to most what is being implied through his words, as DaddyGirl said, there might be nothing explicit that violates Church teaching.

Here is a good protocol for handling these types of issues: Effective Lay Witness Protocol

 

[trickster]

No. In your zeal to show pastoral tact to homosexuals you are going too far. First of all, accusing St. Paul of, essentially, gnosticism, besides being an obvious falsehood, is a grave offense to the piety we owe the saints and a slander against the Church, as well. It is simply false. If sex were evil we’d all be expected to give it up, not just priests and religious. But we’re not, because it’s not evil – it is in fact so good that it needs to be protected. Acts against the sanctity of the marital bed are essentially acts of desecration. Moreover, homosexuals do not “have a public right” to agitate for same-sex “marriage” if you mean “right” in the moral sense. There is no right to do evil. If you mean “right” in the civil sense, well, that may be so, but who cares?

Actually, you are correct if that is your interpretation of what I said my friend. In my mind anyways I do not connect St Paul with Gnosticism; what I was getting at is that St. Paul in order to make the gospel palable to cultures who are not Jewish - in this case Greek - borrowed from Greek culture to explain Christian concepts…the greeks had a world view that was dualistic and somehow that view made its way into how our church constructed its theology. But, no I did not say St. Paul was gnostic, he was anything but…you are correct on that.

I agree with your statements on sex, that is basic Catholic teaching.

I’d have to re-read my post but I think I might have meant right in the “correct” sense. Gay politics is gay politics…just as liberation politics in Latin America and/or right wing politics in the US. Society is society and church is church…I believe in their separation if a state is to run well. There are many good things that the GLBT community is fighting for and the church actually agrees with the dignity of the human being which means equality under the law, etc. We, as a church also support the fact that a long time same sex couple should enjoy things like retirement and other pensions when one dies…that is economic justice. There is not as a big of a gap between gay activists and the social teachings of our church. The sticking point right now is gay marriage…and I a am not sure how that will work…I believe that the state can sanction any kind of marriage it wants, but it cannot force the church to create same sex sacraments, if you know what I mean.

However, we can challenge ourselves as catholics to - not agree with - but acknowledge as a community those who have followed the supremacy of their conscience and remained in a same sex relationship.

I trust that you will have spirited response and I look forward to it my friend.

 

[trickster]

Go figure: whenever we discuss the Church’s teaching on homosexuality someone always comes along with the absurd suggestion that the Church’s teaching on the subject is deeply esoteric and most Catholics are too stupid to understand it.

Now this fairy tale has many problems, not the least of which is the fact that the Church condemns homosexual activity on the grounds of natural law, which is the common sense reason why everyone refuses to practice it even if or when they occassionally might have the urge or attraction or temptation to do so. You don’t need to read the Catechism to understand natural moral law - that’s the whole point of arguing strictly from nature using our reason. It’s not based on Divine Revelation.

Homosexuality is in no sense a part of human nature anymore than blindness or cancer is or would be.

Considered as lust it is sinful as any sexual lust is. Deliberately entertaining it is a sin.

There are in fact no problems whatsoever with the teaching.

That distinction doesn’t matter regardless; and even if it is necessarily biological it would not by that fact be natural or in accordance with our nature. It makes no difference if the cause of SSA is biological or psychological or both.

Ridiculous. It makes no difference either way as was said above.

He is entirely wrong. Saint Paul was not a dualist and it’s a sign of obstinacy for anyone to seriously believe it given the actual evidence. Any serious study of Saint Paul shows that he was not and never a dualist - and he most certainly wasn’t anything on account of Greek pagan culture: he was a highly trained Pharisee! He would have opposed any classically false Greek dichotomies and held most classically Greek teachings as dubious given that the danger that they were mixed with error or contradicted God’s Revelation and Word.

Peter versus Paul! Round 1.

This is a myth and not even the worst Greek pagans would have been so deluded as to believe it. This is rank historical revisionism.

We get our notions of a fallen world from Genesis. We get our notion of God’s perfection, goodness and glory from Jesus and the Apostles who slavishly thought and taught in Old Testament terms and concepts.

Gnosticism was a heresy condemned by none other than Saint Paul himself in the very Bible !

At this point I think I have made it sufficiently clear that you have absolutely no credibility and not the faintest idea of what you are talking about.

OK 1Augustson7 tell us what you really feel I enjoyed your responses. Unfortunately I read them as I was preparing to go to a meeting. I’d love to revisit them with you and pull out each others thinking more. Take care my friend and we’ll meet gain…