Gay Rights speaker at my Catholic college?

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So basically you want to send them to a really expensive Catecheism school? You can get that at your parish for a much less expensive price, and send your kid to a community college. It would be pretty much the same thing.

Universities are places of debate. They are places of learning, yes, but that learning involves criticism. Criticism involves taking a close look at a vareity of suppositions and beliefs and examining them closely. It also means being open to the possibility that you just might be wrong about one of your positions.

Kids come from High School with a bunch of solid notions - how to write a paper, for example. But they discover in college that there’s much more to writing a paper than a simple five part “report” style essay. Research papers aren’t reports, they discover, they are theses. Ways to express a point: a point, that, at times, can be highly controversial. I remember back when I was a freshman and stayed firmly in the box with the first couple of papers I wrote. I got bad grades. Why? I didn’t challenge any of my beliefs or the preconcieved beliefs of the subject I was writing about (as well as not going outside the box of standard research papers). So I actually did step outside the box. I started bursting into fiction in the middle of papers. I started looking for ideas that seemed stale and examined them for their flaws. I came up with radical ideas - some good, some bad. My gades improved dramatically. My papers started getting recognized by my teachers. Some teachers even changed the way the class was taught to incorporate some of my ideas. But most importantly: I learned how to think critically.

That sort of stepping-outside-the-box is the bedrock of our society. It includes the evolution of Christian thinking - all the way back to the incorporation of gentiles into the Christian community in the 40’s and 50’s. All the way back to the theological evolution of Jesus, moving from Messiah to Lord and then to God. It took the Chrisitan community three centuries to really get at what that meant, by the way.

The Church is not immune to evolution. It is not immune to growth. It is not a stagnant pool that festers and doesn’t change - it’s a river. Unfortunately, the sort of college you advocate would indeed be a stagnant pool. And colleges like that (and I can go into this further) don’t survive very long. They pop up, claiming to be pillars of orthodoxy - and then they die.

I’ll repeat my point from before; if a parent wants his kid to go to a really expensive catecheism class, send him to Steubenville. If he wants a real education, send him to a college that isn’t afraid to expose students to challenging points of view - and isn’t afraid to encourage it’s students to take a close look at the world around them (including their church) and look at it critically.
Thats fine then, but the school then shouldn’t claim to be a Catholic College then. There are plenty of secular colleges that do that. But a private Catholic College is totally different. A college claiming they are something, and then do things that are against its essence is a disservice to the parents because they are paying for their child to be taught education in line with Catholic teaching. It would be like having a “White rights” activist speak at a Black University thats specifically geared toward black students and black culture. Or a white person going to a Black College and speaking about black on white crime. That is inappropiate for that College because of its theme. Some black parents send their children to Black Universitys because they want their children to be immersed in the Black Culture and lifestyle. Its the exact same way with Catholic familys. And bringing things in that are contrary to the theme of the college is a disservice to the parents and students at that college that are paying for this specific type of education…

In fact thats why they are private colleges. Because they have a central theme to them that is different from the secular world. The parents are partly paying for that part of their childs education. I have no problem with a gay speaker speaking about gay rights in a secular college, but when its done in a private Catholic college it is a totally different thing and its unfair to the students and espesially the parents who pay for their childs education. When you claim an organization to be “Catholic” you are advertising that you are adhering to the teachings of the Church. If not, then they are being deceptive and false advertising.
 
In fact thats why they are private colleges. Because they have a central theme to them that is different from the secular world. The parents are partly paying for that part of their childs education. I have no problem with a gay speaker speaking about gay rights in a secular college, but when its done in a private Catholic college it is a totally different thing and its unfair to the students and espesially the parents who pay for their childs education. When you claim an organization to be “Catholic” you are advertising that you are adhering to the teachings of the Church. If not, then they are being deceptive and false advertising.
Nice Point. 👍
 
The “College is not catechism class!” cry is bogus. Yes there is a difference between CCD and college, just like there are differences between the boot-camp sargeant and a 4-star general. But the problem here is a college bringing someone in to undermine the faith is like having a general fighting for the enemy.
 
The “College is not catechism class!” cry is bogus. Yes there is a difference between CCD and college, just like there are differences between the boot-camp sargeant and a 4-star general. But the problem here is a college bringing someone in to undermine the faith is like having a general fighting for the enemy.
True, sounds like one of those heretical “spirit of vatican II” organizations that is trying to convince the Church to commit suicide.
 
Mysteriously there is this message posted on my school’s webpage:

I never told anyone that I was going to object to this event, so it looks like their must be others that are concerned like I am.

btw, if anyone would like to know, I go to Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
aquinas.edu
Good to hear it is postponed. If they reschedule, let us know. Perhaps we can get some Catholic blogsphere energy going.
 
Good to hear it is postponed. If they reschedule, let us know. Perhaps we can get some Catholic blogsphere energy going.
All of us from the forum should show that college what Catholicism is.
 
Mysteriously there is this message posted on my school’s webpage:
The "What’s Morally Wrong with Homosexuality?"event scheduled for tonight at 10:30pm has been postponed to a later date in April to allow adequate time for the college to prepare a reflection of the Catholic perspective.
Excellent news! Although 10:30 on a weeknight seems kind of late for a speaker, anyways.
I never told anyone that I was going to object to this event, so it looks like their must be others that are concerned like I am.
Yes, it does seem like that. I wondered last night if it might be the case, since Corvino’s appearance wasn’t listed on Aquinas College’s homepage.

Hmmm… I wonder how you could make contact with the other persons who objected to Corvino’s appearance?
 
Yes, FUS is fiercely orthodox, but that doesn’t mean they only look at things in a one-dimensional way. How can you refute an error if you don’t look at the error?
Exactly. Those “orthodox” universities only care about viewpoints counter to Catholicism inasmuch as it illustrates that the Catholic church is actually correct.
If one wants an environment where all point of views are considered equal, why not go to a (much less expensive) state school? Why even bother with a “Catholic” college if one doesn’t even care about approaching things from a Catholic perspective?
Considered equal? I didn’t say that. I said take ideas and think critically about them. Even the ones the “infallible” Church says are absolutely true. Even the concept of an infallible church itself. I question the compatibility of the notion of infallibility in a University setting.

Addressing your other points: No, I don’t go to FUS - but I applied there (when I was my naive self who didn’t know any better). I know a number of graduates, as well as a couple of current students. I have talked with a number of religious studies professors about their opinions of FUS. My picture is accurate of their theology program - they consider views that don’t agree with the Catholic church only inasmuch as they can refute them. As you said, they have to see the “error” just so they can refute it. Apologetics, though, make for poor scholarship.
 
The “College is not catechism class!” cry is bogus. Yes there is a difference between CCD and college, just like there are differences between the boot-camp sargeant and a 4-star general. But the problem here is a college bringing someone in to undermine the faith is like having a general fighting for the enemy.
You’re right, the difference between them is vast.

There is no problem here. If someone appears to “undermine” the faith - go be there to support your point of view. Then fight it out. Point out flaws in his arguments. Present your point of view.

Discussion. Debate. Controversy. Criticism. A good college (Catholic or otherwise) includes all of those and more. This speaker is certianly an opportunity for all four.

You’re not suggesting you bring in the opposing viewpoint and have a debate - or juxtapose that speaker with another speaker, later in the semester - you’re suggesting that you don’t even have the person speak.
 
You’re right, the difference between them is vast.

There is no problem here. If someone appears to “undermine” the faith - go be there to support your point of view. Then fight it out. Point out flaws in his arguments. Present your point of view.

Discussion. Debate. Controversy. Criticism. A good college (Catholic or otherwise) includes all of those and more. This speaker is certianly an opportunity for all four.

You’re not suggesting you bring in the opposing viewpoint and have a debate - or juxtapose that speaker with another speaker, later in the semester - you’re suggesting that you don’t even have the person speak.
It is one thing to take a history class of the Civil War and reconstruction and discuss and debate the Klu Klux Klan, and another thing entirely to invite a Klansman to present his raving farrago of nonsense in a public forum. Homosex is a non-negotiable evil, and allowing a defense of it on a Catholic campus amounts to formal cooperation with it. “I’m personally opposed, but…” simply doesn’t fly. (And one has to wonder if the programmers are even personally opposed, which goes back to the question of whose side are they fighting on.) It is ridiculous to suugest that because it’s a college, every idea is not only entitled to a hearing, it’s also entitled to a venue. T’ain’t so.

But don’t take a layman’s word for it. Here’s Bishop D’Arcy on why The Vagina Monologues should not be allowed on a Catholic college and he dismantles the “Discussion. Debate. Controversy. Criticism” canard. And it applies easily to Corvino’s lecture:
The overriding issue here is moral. The play is an affront to human dignity, as Catholic teaching understands it. If it is performed, it should be denounced. Otherwise, the university appears to endorse it as in some way good and the impression is given that Catholic teaching is one option competing among many. This method places faith in a defensive position and on the margin and is unacceptable at a Catholic university.

“A faith that places itself on the margin of what is human, of what is therefore culture, would be a faith unfaithful to the fullness of what the Word of God manifests and reveals, a decapitated faith, worse still, a faith in the process of self-annihilation.” — John Paul II, Address to Intellectuals, to Students and to University Personnel at Medellin, Columbia, 5 July, 1986. Cited in “Ex Corde Ecclesiae” 44.

Some claim that a performance of the play followed by a panel will “engage the culture” and that out of such a discussion the “truth will emerge.” Sadly, “Ex Corde Ecclesiae” is even cited in defense of this position. But what makes a Catholic university distinctive is the conviction that in the search for truth, we do not start from scratch; we start from the truth that has been revealed to us in the Word of God, the person of Jesus Christ, and the teaching of his church. The notion that truth will emerge from a discussion in which many points of view are represented both disrespects revealed truth and separates the search for truth from the certainty of faith; instead, as Pope John Paul II stated in “Ex Corde Ecclesiae”: “A Catholic university’s privileged task is ‘to unite existentially by intellectual effort two orders of reality that too frequently tend to be placed in opposition as though they were antithetical: the search for truth, and the certainty of already knowing the fount of truth.’” — John Paul II, Discourse to the Institut Catholique de Paris, June, 1, 1980, cited in “Ex Corde Ecclesiae,”
 
That sort of stepping-outside-the-box is the bedrock of our society. It includes the evolution of Christian thinking - all the way back to the incorporation of gentiles into the Christian community in the 40’s and 50’s. All the way back to the theological evolution of Jesus, moving from Messiah to Lord and then to God. It took the Chrisitan community three centuries to really get at what that meant, by the way.

The Church is not immune to evolution. It is not immune to growth. It is not a stagnant pool that festers and doesn’t change - it’s a river. Unfortunately, the sort of college you advocate would indeed be a stagnant pool. And colleges like that (and I can go into this further) don’t survive very long. They pop up, claiming to be pillars of orthodoxy - and then they die.
So your POV is the Catholics should stand and explain why homosexual actions risks one’s salvation? Explain to active homosexuals that Catholics, following in the footsteps of Christ care about their souls.

That we can never under any circumstances accept legal recognition (which implies a good) of homosexual actions - and explain the Word of God the best they can?
 
Exactly. Those “orthodox” universities only care about viewpoints counter to Catholicism inasmuch as it illustrates that the Catholic church is actually correct.
Yes, we want our Catholic universities to be places of excellent scholarship. But, if it’s a Catholic school, then we don’t approach Catholic teaching from a standpoint of skepticism, as though we can start from scratch with every issue. If I attend a Moral theology class at a Catholic university, I would expect them to clearly lay out the Catholic Church’s moral teaching as well as explaining the reasons for that teaching and answering any of the students’ questions. Certainly there are gray areas in morality and theology where Catholics can disagree, but there are many areas that are not gray. It’s not as though we approach a topic such as homosexual activity from the vantage point of “The Church could be right or it could be wrong. Let’s discuss it and find out together.”

I think I understand a bit of your concern. We do need to think through things. By way of analogy, when we’re learning math, we often will first look at going about things the long way before we learn the shortcuts so that we can have a better understanding of how things work. We do the same with theology when we look at the roots of the basic principles before we build upon them. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Considered equal? I didn’t say that. I said take ideas and think critically about them. Even the ones the “infallible” Church says are absolutely true. Even the concept of an infallible church itself. I question the compatibility of the notion of infallibility in a University setting.
I never said that you did say that (notice, I intentionally used the words “if one wants” and not “if you want”). I think this is where we fail to see eye-to-eye, and we probably will just have to agree to disagree on this point: I do not believe the infallibility of the Church is at all incompatible with a University setting. Unless, of course, we raise the University to a higher level than the Church (which, of course, many people do).

I think there is an important difference between thinking critically and thinking skeptically. It’s a mistake to believe that, in order to think critically, we must question everything (at least in the way that most people today use the word “question” as synonomous with “doubt”). My main problem with this line of thinking is that, when many people say that it is the job of Catholic universities to teach students to question everything (even Church teaching), they do not mean simply seeking to understand what we as Catholics believe and profess to be true. They mean, “Question everything, and if your questioning leads you to disagree with infallible Church teaching, that’s okay.” That’s not okay.

I think this error stems from the fact that most people today believe faith is incompatible with reason. Thus, they assume that anything accepted by faith is somehow blind and uncritical. As though we just turn off our brains and mindlessly follow. That is a severe misunderstanding of both faith and reason.
Addressing your other points: No, I don’t go to FUS - but I applied there (when I was my naive self who didn’t know any better). I know a number of graduates, as well as a couple of current students. I have talked with a number of religious studies professors about their opinions of FUS. My picture is accurate of their theology program - they consider views that don’t agree with the Catholic church only inasmuch as they can refute them. As you said, they have to see the “error” just so they can refute it. Apologetics, though, make for poor scholarship.
So, in other words, your information is all second-hand. Mine is not, and your picture of their theology program is not accurate. Their theology program is not a glorified apologetics seminar. I have attended both a prestigious state school and FUS and I can tell you that I learned far more about critical thinking at FUS than I ever did at the state school.

I would like to hear your answer to the question as to what the difference should be between a Catholic college and a secular one. Why waste your money going to an expensive Catholic school if you can get the same thing at a state school? Why should the Church even bother having Catholic colleges and universities if not to create a thoroughly Catholic environment where learning and formation of Catholic identity can take place? Even from a practical view point, wouldn’t the Church just be shooting Herself in the foot by “educating” the Church members to question even the most infallible teachings (as though it’s just fine to disagree and then work against the Church in certain areas)?
 
So your POV is the Catholics should stand and explain why homosexual actions risks one’s salvation? Explain to active homosexuals that Catholics, following in the footsteps of Christ care about their souls.

That we can never under any circumstances accept legal recognition (which implies a good) of homosexual actions - and explain the Word of God the best they can?
Sure, have the students say something like when the Gay Rights speaker has his Q&A.
 
It is one thing to take a history class of the Civil War and reconstruction and discuss and debate the Klu Klux Klan, and another thing entirely to invite a Klansman to present his raving farrago of nonsense in a public forum. Homosex is a non-negotiable evil, and allowing a defense of it on a Catholic campus amounts to formal cooperation with it. “I’m personally opposed, but…” simply doesn’t fly.
Is this man a “raving farrago of nonsense”? I don’t think so. After looking at his site, he seems clam, well-spoken, and reasonable.

You are correct about one thing - there is a line in terms of questioning ideas. Though there is a debate about the KKK and it’s role and perception in society that I think is fine for discussion (I heard a research paper that looked into that very issue - though I disagree with some of it’s conclusions, there were some interesting points that I hadn’t considered before) - there are some limits. Questioning the reality of the holocaust, for example, is definately a breach of scholarship. Professors will rightly laugh at you for suggesting the holocaust never happened, and wonder how you ever made it past high school. There are, of course, certian historical facts that make up the foundation of scholarship.

The question is, is the morality of homosexuality one of them? Well, consider the fact that homosexuality is becoming more and more accepted in our society. Consider that our democratic presidential candidates is in favor of civil unions for gay couples. Consider the numbers of priests and catholic religious studies scholars that you know that have no problem with homosexuality.

But, of course, “truth” is not determined by a majority vote, right?

Well, also consider the foundations for the idea that homosexuality is immoral. There have been numerous debates on the whole ‘natural’ issue on these forums. It’s a dubious idea, at best, certianly one open to debate and questioning. But I think we can all agree that the foundations for determining that homosexuality is wrong are firmly based on religion. So when considering secular gay rights, and considering the establishment clause in the constitution (you know, the whole “separation of Church and state” issue?) - I think there is certianly room for plenty of sensible debate there.

Colleges, being a great forum for sensible debate, ought to encourage that whole “Discussion. Debate. Controversy. Criticism.” thing I was talking about earlier. Just because this guy advocates something that Church teaching (for some insane reason I don’t understand) says is wrong (namely, that governments shouldn’t protect gay civil unions).
(And one has to wonder if the programmers are even personally opposed, which goes back to the question of whose side are they fighting on.)
Sure. I bet most or all of them aren’t opposed to gay rights. They’re probably not opposed to homosexuality at all. That’s the world you live in, bud. The Church and it’s members aren’t immune.
It is ridiculous to suugest that because it’s a college, every idea is not only entitled to a hearing, it’s also entitled to a venue. T’ain’t so.
I agree.
 
If I attend a Moral theology class at a Catholic university, I would expect them to clearly lay out the Catholic Church’s moral teaching as well as explaining the reasons for that teaching and answering any of the students’ questions.
I agree. But the entire university isn’t a Intro to Catholic Moral Theology class. Not by a long shot.
Certainly there are gray areas in morality and theology where Catholics can disagree, but there are many areas that are not gray. It’s not as though we approach a topic such as homosexual activity from the vantage point of “The Church could be right or it could be wrong. Let’s discuss it and find out together.”
Sure, I think that a debate about the morality of rape wouldn’t be okay on a college campus, but homosexuality is an entirely different issue and you know it.
I never said that you did say that (notice, I intentionally used the words “if one wants” and not “if you want”). I think this is where we fail to see eye-to-eye, and we probably will just have to agree to disagree on this point: I do not believe the infallibility of the Church is at all incompatible with a University setting. Unless, of course, we raise the University to a higher level than the Church (which, of course, many people do).
We might. I think the idea that any person or institution is infallible is a totally ridiculous notion. I think every person and every institution needs to be open to criticism, and the shield of infallibility of the Church pretty much closes debate on any moral issue that they have a problem with.
I think there is an important difference between thinking critically and thinking skeptically. It’s a mistake to believe that, in order to think critically, we must question everything (at least in the way that most people today use the word “question” as synonomous with “doubt”). My main problem with this line of thinking is that, when many people say that it is the job of Catholic universities to teach students to question everything (even Church teaching), they do not mean simply seeking to understand what we as Catholics believe and profess to be true. They mean, “Question everything, and if your questioning leads you to disagree with infallible Church teaching, that’s okay.” That’s not okay.
… What? You don’t think Catholic colleges should encourage theology students to question “infallible” Church teaching? … Why…?
I think this error stems from the fact that most people today believe faith is incompatible with reason.
facepalm
Thus, they assume that anything accepted by faith is somehow blind and uncritical. As though we just turn off our brains and mindlessly follow. That is a severe misunderstanding of both faith and reason.
another facepalm You’re way off base here. Any theology student, regardless of his or her beliefs or faith, can’t read any major theologian (everything from Augustine to Luther to Bonhoeffer) and believe that accepting something on faith means turning off your brain
I would like to hear your answer to the question as to what the difference should be between a Catholic college and a secular one. Why waste your money going to an expensive Catholic school if you can get the same thing at a state school? Why should the Church even bother having Catholic colleges and universities if not to create a thoroughly Catholic environment where learning and formation of Catholic identity can take place? Even from a practical view point, wouldn’t the Church just be shooting Herself in the foot by “educating” the Church members to question even the most infallible teachings (as though it’s just fine to disagree and then work against the Church in certain areas)?
That’s a huge debate. A massive debate. A debate that has gone on for a few decades now by the best scholars and staff in the United States. I can answer your questions later.
 
I agree. But the entire university isn’t a Intro to Catholic Moral Theology class. Not by a long shot.
I never said that it was or that it should be. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be under the impression that to stick to teaching what the Church actually teaches would be to somehow only be teaching intro level classes. You have spoken in terms of glorified catechism classes, apologetics classes, and now intro theology courses. That’s not at all accurate. To me, it seems like a strawman/ad hominem argument as you are trying very hard to paint those “other” types of Catholic colleges as intellectually inferior without any real basis for your claim besides the fact that you say that’s how it is.
Sure, I think that a debate about the morality of rape wouldn’t be okay on a college campus, but homosexuality is an entirely different issue and you know it.
I do? Why? Because you say so? :rolleyes:
We might. I think the idea that any person or institution is infallible is a totally ridiculous notion. I think every person and every institution needs to be open to criticism, and the shield of infallibility of the Church pretty much closes debate on any moral issue that they have a problem with.
If you find the fact that the Church is infallible to be a ridiculous notion, then we definitely have a very different view of the Church. Not that I am advocating that the Church is above criticism. Not at all. Certainly, there are always things that need to be brought to light, and even our priests and bishops fall into sin and make unwise decisions. But that doesn’t make Church teaching less true.
… What? You don’t think Catholic colleges should encourage theology students to question “infallible” Church teaching? … Why…?
If by “question”, you mean to doubt the truth of infallible Catholic teaching in a manner in which the faculty does not really care whether the students accept or reject Church teaching, then the answer is “No”.

On the other hand, if by “question”, you mean to seek to understand the reasons and the underlying principles, then the answer is “Yes.”

Why would a Catholic professor at a Catholic University encourage students to doubt the legitimacy of Catholic teaching? That’s simply ridiculous. They can get enough of that anywhere else. Where then do they go for answers to their questions?
That’s a huge debate. A massive debate. A debate that has gone on for a few decades now by the best scholars and staff in the United States. I can answer your questions later.
Oh really? Well, I look forward to your answers, then. Although I must admit, I don’t see what the huge debate would be. If our Catholic colleges (or any Catholic schools, for that matter) look exactly like their secular counterparts, what’s the point of even having them? None that I can see.
 
Latest mention from Aquinas Colleges site “The Moose” here:

Come to The Moose tonight at 10:30 p.m. to discuss the postponed Dr. John Corvino lecture on “What’s Morally Wrong with Homosexuality?”. Feel free to express your thoughts and how this has affected your day - personally and academically.This open forum discussion will be led by you, the Aquinas students.Pray that whoever oversees this has the wisdom to ruin someone’s day and postpone it permanently. I don’t know much about Aquinas college, but the presence of those insipid Safe Zones is not encouraging. (These things have cropped up almost unopposed on many campuses. Back in 98-99, there was some opposition from a conservative college paper in Georgetown, and they got their copies stolen for their effort. See: splc.org/report_detail.asp?id=351&edition=5)
 
Latest mention from Aquinas Colleges site “The Moose” here:

Come to The Moose tonight at 10:30 p.m. to discuss the postponed Dr. John Corvino lecture on “What’s Morally Wrong with Homosexuality?”. Feel free to express your thoughts and how this has affected your day - personally and academically.This open forum discussion will be led by you, the Aquinas students.Pray that whoever oversees this has the wisdom to ruin someone’s day and postpone it permanently. I don’t know much about Aquinas college, but the presence of those insipid Safe Zones is not encouraging. (These things have cropped up almost unopposed on many campuses. Back in 98-99, there was some opposition from a conservative college paper in Georgetown, and they got their copies stolen for their effort. See: splc.org/report_detail.asp?id=351&edition=5)
I see nothing wrong with the Safe Zones. From your link:
Bigotry, favoritism, harassment, and discrimination will not be tolerated.
I am glad it is back on, I hope it will be a enlightening experience for both sides to have a fair discussion on the issue presented.:cool: 👍
 
Tomorrow, my college, which is Catholic, is hosting a Gay Rights activist to speak. I am aware of the Catholic teaching on Same Sex Attraction, so no need to go into that.

Should I be concerned that a Catholic college is hosting an event that goes directly against Church teaching.

If you want to read about him, he has a website: johncorvino.com/

Also, there is an article on this website criticizing Pope Benedict XVI: johncorvino.com/col105hp.html

What shall I do?
I read a couple of his columns on his website and clearly you should be concerned and you have a right to express your concerns to the President and Deans of the college.
 
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