GAYS and masterbation are mortal sins

[Miserissima]

To those who attempt the Leviticus-against-itself ploy, I say they ought to stop because this has been thouroughly refuted and frankly displays a colossal ignorance of Scripture and how OT law works. See : tektonics.org/lp/lev18.html

I am sorry that I wasn’t more clear. It was never my intention to do the “Leviticus-against-itself ploy.” It was meant to be rather tongue-in-cheek, with a reference to Charles Taze Russell and then preambled with, “…I am inferring that you do not believe **literally **in the Eucharist as in John 6. So I will ask a few more questions and hopefully elicit some thoughtful answers from you…”

It was a sophomoric jab, and I should have used emoticons. Sorry!

 

[JohnnyReb]

Choose to or not, what does it really matter? We’re all in agreement about the Church’s teachings against acting on homosexual feelings, so why can’t we all just get along?

My wife and I knew many homosexuals in college, and I truly believe that they did not choose to be attracted to their own sex(just my opinion). The only real choice involved in homesexuality is the choice to act on it or not. God bless all of you who are struggling with SSA, because you truly have a heavy cross to bear.

As someone who is very active in psychological research, I can assure you that there are no definitive findings either way. Almost all of the studies claiming to prove anything about the origins of homosexual behavior are too flawed to be widely accepted within the academic community. Either way, what does it matter?

We’re all God’s children and He taught us to love one another.

I agree with what you have to say. Most of us agree with Church teaching that tells us that acting on ssa is a sin. Why would anyone, especially a Christian, choose to be attracted to the same sex? Why would a Christian do so in light of all the things that Christians say about ssa, and the guilt and condemnation that Christians often put on those who suffer from ssa? It is beyond me personally.

I am reminded of the Lords prayer “Lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from evil” these words are the cry of my heart for those who fight ssa.

 

[JohnnyReb]

I wonder if those who think their SSA is a blessing would also say that those who are attracted to children are equally blessed.

I’d bet that pedophiles would say they were ‘born’ that way, but most people would say it’s a disorder, which is what homosexuality used to be. Now it’s celebrated as being normal and just another way people can love each other. I just wonder how long it’s going to be before adult/child ‘love’ is accepted as being normal.

I think that it’s important to understand that having a SSA is not a sin. You are not going to hell for being gay. However, the line is crossed when you act on it.

There is a big difference between what happens between two consenting adults and someone who preys on children and young but naive adolescents/preteens. I hope NAMBLA is not able to get pedophilia removed from the DSM-IV as a mental health disorder. That would be the first step as viewing the activity as normal.

While prostitution and homosexual activity are by no means moral and are sinful, they don’t bother me as much as pedophila.

 

[Scottgun]

I am sorry that I wasn’t more clear. It was never my intention to do the “Leviticus-against-itself ploy.” It was meant to be rather tongue-in-cheek, with a reference to Charles Taze Russell and then preambled with, “…I am inferring that you do not believe **literally **in the Eucharist as in John 6. So I will ask a few more questions and hopefully elicit some thoughtful answers from you…”

It was a sophomoric jab, and I should have used emoticons. Sorry!

I thought you might be tongue in cheek, so I made it a general addeess.

 

[Gertabelle]

It is not a choice with who you fall in love with though, now is it?

I believe we can choose with whom we fall in love. I am very, very attracted to a man with whom I have regular contact in a social/academic setting. He’s kind and compassionate, intelligent, good looking, single, has a great sense of humor, seems interested in me, and is less than a year older than me. But he’s not Catholic and he smokes pot – two non-negotiables for me. I could totally go to the place of closing my eyes to those two things and move forward with a relationship with him. We could probably become very close, as we have developed a friendship already.

But I CHOOSE not to “fall in love” with him, or even to allow myself to enter into any situation that could lead us into a sort of “dating” relationship. It’s a choice who you fall in love with. I may not be able to control who I am attracted to, but as so many others have said, we choose our actions.

And you say that you were molested as a child by a men, and you were afraid to be with men…

Ok, well most BOYS who are molested by MEN become gay. What, why do they not fear men? After all, it was a guy that raped them… So why do they wish to have a relationship with guys? If it is so fearful.

So if I am choosing being gay… Tell me… How do I “get out” of this “lifestyle?” Please tell me how, and G-d willing we will see if I can mysteriously “become” straight all of a sudden.

My goodness…

French, if you truly want answers to the questions you ask, you have to give the Church’s teaching a chance. You could start by choosing celibacy for a period of time (6-12 months, for example) during which you pray with an open heart for God’s direction. Or maybe you just pray for an open heart if you don’t yet have one.

The one thing I had going for me during my jaunt through the lesbian world was my prayer – God, I don’t know how to be anything but what I am, but if this is not your will for me, lead me. Even then, to me there was nothing more important that my relationship with God, even when I didn’t know who or what “God” was.

A lot of people are on the offensive or defensive here, it seems, and that often leads people to be more committed to being right than anything else, including listening for the whisper of God.

I’ll keep praying for God’s will in your life, and let God choose that for you. I pray you’ll follow His path for you.

God bless.
Gertie

 

[Scottgun]

Thanks Gertabelle. You are right on that love is an act of the will and not some irresistable emotion–that’s infatuation. It is perfectly acceptable for a man to love another man. But love has nothing to do with anally violating him (voluntarily or otherwise).

 

[nilofc]

To do homosexual acts is a choice.
It is to choose sin over God.

 

[sonoflife1]

Huzzah! Methinks sonoflife1 isn’t familiar with the CCC. Who cares if “cannot control” in this context is either by nature or nurture? Also, there are enough heterosexual folks who “cannot control” their desires, as well. Good on you, Jart, for a succinct answer.

You remind me of another erudite scholar names Charles Taze Russell. He, too, was fluent in ancient languages. How are you coming along in Aramaic?

You have a lot of good questions in your last post, sonoflife1. All of which are already answered in the online archives of This Rock as well as here in these forums, so I won’t waste your time.

But, thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. I am inferring that you do not believe literally in the Eucharist as in John 6. So I will ask a few more questions and hopefully elicit some thoughtful answers from you.

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. That settles the argument.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians? Or, why can’t Mexicans or Canadians own Americans?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21: 7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her menstrual cycle (Lev.15: 19-24). The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but my wife takes offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1: 9). The problem is with my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? And does this apply to barbecuing on an outdoor grill?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear glasses for astigmatism. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)? Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)

 

[sonoflife1]

Ok everyone Iam typeing for my teacher sonoflife1 so am sorry in advance for any misspelling.But it is him answering you.thx
I belive your question is more Old Testment VS New testament
Also there is a lot here so I can see you have a good reading base
that pleases me. Mostly concerning LEV. which you know is Old Testament.Written by Moses.And Thank you for your prayers.
Honestly,Theres a too much to answer on this,giving the differant
stages of growth and where each one is at to give you a complete
full answer down to the bone.on a reply computer.It requires deeper and long study to give you a proper answer or to get to the same conclutions.Also we have to understand that not everyone is Catholic. I hope you enroll in theolgy.That will give you a much
deeper understanding Than what I can give here briefly.But here
it goes…Moses was told not to tell his flock it was(Jesus)that made the water come up under the rock but he did…Abraham lied
about sarha not being his wife…some had more than one wife…
Peter denied knowing Jesus…Well my pt.is everyone was with sin
of one kind or the other.Did they kill themselves?NO.Moses got angry sometimes.Since Adam and Eve God has said The samething concering salvation.The people didnt do it.Doughters
conspirters,inventors.Sacrofices goes way back.Throwing virgins dwn valcanos.So sacrofice may of started by man.God may of allowed it to use as a sort of training aide to bring us up and a way from it.Since we was so embedded init.We still messed it up
So God flooded the earth. still messed up so God sent His Son Jesus to sort of SPOON feed US.And save us!Lead us,DIED Rose
again!GIVE ALL THINGS TO THE FATHER!! Keep thy FATHERS
Commandments Jesus said.

 

[sonoflife1]

Now,Love the Sinner but hate the sin.
as far as Paul you have to understand that Paul didnt always
write divinely!! Paul made it clear when he was and when he wasnt.The instance refered to:MEN WITH LONG HAIR SHALL BE SHAMED, women should shave there head ect. understand Paul was speaking from HIS OWN MIND,and goes on telling us why he thinks that way useing his own logic.Paul was trying to set up some church rules.When Paul was speaking a divine message he let everyone know.He was very honest,and very sincere about this.Homosexual behavior is in the old and new
testament! and its bad in both very bad sin.Yes I do know the differants of a thought,an and act.If your eye offends you pluck it out ect.Yes Iam knowlegeable of ccc.And if your innocent or ignorant of the sin you commit.Do I belive in various levels of sin.
ABSOLOTELY! LET me expound a bit like Ive said everyone is at differant places with there walk with God.Some are well studyied
some are begining there walk,some are ignorant to part of the sins some are not aware as others,some are decieved or gullable
than others.Some start there walk late in life some start early so age isnt always the case,langage can be part of it example cuss word in our langauge may mean something differant in anther same with sign languge ect,customs,curtiousy.With study youll find out why about crops in the field in lev.Again study remember
to place yourself in that time.See whats going on.Find use historical documents ,moses was a begining to try and get people
turned around.They came up with Whoppers bk then Golden Calfs?
We laugh today at such things but back then hey that was the popular deal,So Moses had a lifetime of work Ahead.

 

[sonoflife1]

The Old church arguements
Babtism
Prayer to dead
Eucharist
Infallible Pope
Peter or simon magnus 1st pope (64AD)
venial sins
much more Theres an easy here you can trust your church leaders or you can challenge every word seek it out in scripture
and use many artifacts,ancient texts, study I took the long road
along the road I fought in debate against babtist,lutherens,penacostal,catholics,historians,aventist,you name it I pretty much was challengeing it sometimes I thought I
had the right one found it wrong.these churches have a lot of years
behind them.Boy I studied.cutting threw the heries,consperices
understanding history digging.I proved to myself Catholic was right
I also found alot out about people.Some are like I was some are
are in the right place now but dont realize it.Iam sure no church is
perfect,and nether are we…Thank the FATHER for Sending His SON!!! Praise GOD!!! I pray for everyone because I want to see everyone in HEAVEN!! And CRY for those who dont make it.
MAY GOD BLESS YOU AND MAY HE KEEP SHOWING YOU THE LIGHT I PRAY FOR EVERYONES SIN EVEN THE ENEMYS
ILL FACE NEXT MONTH> GOD LOVE EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU I KNOW HE DOES… GOOD NIGHT ALL:thumbsup:

 

[Theist]

“Gays” is not an act; homosexual sex is an act. Glory to God, too, that most people on this board do indeed know that sex which cannot properly image God’s love is n abuse of human sexuality.

That aside, your post is very hard to read and doesn’t seem to invite discussion or bring up anything controversial. Could you clean up your post a bit and fix the spacing and capitalization, please?

God bless.

lol

Are you seriously saying that you can be “Gay” (homosexual) without performing homosexual acts? I believe the term for that is closet-homosexual. To be “Gay” means sexual relations with those of the same sex.

I’m not sure how you can even make this a question. Gays are mortal sinners.

 

[Transformer]

lol

Are you seriously saying that you can be “Gay” (homosexual) without performing homosexual acts? I believe the term for that is closet-homosexual. To be “Gay” means sexual relations with those of the same sex.

I’m not sure how you can even make this a question. Gays are mortal sinners.

Well, specifically, “gays” is a noun; at the time, I was criticizing the OP’s English, which was uncharitable because his mistakes did not come from a lack of effort, but from English’s not being his first language.

It’s not my experience that everyone agrees with your definition of “gay”; I know a number of people who use the word to refer to anyone who experiences same-sex attractions, whether they engage in homosexual sex or not. I like to avoid the word altogether because it’s so ambiguous; it’s much more precise just to talk in terms of people who experience same-sex attractions and people who both experience same-sex attractions and engage in homsexual relationships and/or sex. That way of speaking has the added bonus of refusing to give into the idea that same-sex attractions are core to the identity of the man who experiences them; he is a beloved son of God who experiences same-sex attractions, not a homosexual man (in-as-far-as the latter might imply that his ‘homosexuality’ is a part of his personal identity).

I would also be careful in saying that anyone who engages in homosexual sex is a mortal sinner. Such people are indeed participating in an act that is objectively gravely evil, but I hope and I pray that any given individual not be fully culpable for his actions, and so, not in a state of mortal sin. It is certainly a possibility. As I was personally reminded recently by someone who called me out on my own judgmentalism, we cannot ever claim to know another individual’s heart.

God bless.

 

[Yerusalyim]

My my my Transformer, a bit judgemental aren’t we? A mortal sin has to meet three criteria, it must be of a serious nature, and granted, same gender sex meets that criteria, the sinner must have FULL KNOWLEDGE of the nature of the sin and assent to the sin freely…and there in mitigation of sin might begin.

Masturbation…well, the sin in masturbation is not “spilling your seend on the ground”…you’re refering there to the sin of Onan found in Genesis 38:8…Onan’s sin was not that he “spilled his seed on the ground” it was that he disobeyed God by not giving children to his brother’s widow because he wanted to inherit his brother’s property. The same standard of the three rules for mortal sin apply here as with all sin.

Recommendation, STOP being so judgemental…remember what Christ told us…the story about trying to remember a speck of dust from our brother’s eye while all the time we have a great log in our own…if you approach people gently and humbly (humility was spoken of in last Sunday’s gospel) you might win over your brother and help them find Christ.

 

[crenfro]

In the Catholic Answers library section on line, at this link, I found some helpful information on this topic…

catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

 

[Koru]

The way I see it, if you refer to yourself as “gay” or “homosexual”… you are not, by existing and by calling yourself as such, a sinner; it is by the acts done BY those who call themselves as such that bring judgement from God who sees one as a person who commits the sins that defines the defining noun.

Murderer = defines that you have murdered and/or do murder
Homosexual = defines that you have had homosexual relations and/or do commit the acts therein (or desire homosexual relations)

Homosexuality and masturbation are sins due to the LUST that defines them. Both, lustful acts that are against what the Lord God wants from us.

The quotes will come or has come from others participating in this issue already… It is too late for me to search for exact quotes and teachings.

God Bless,
~Cole

 

[Yerusalyim]

Final comment, you can indeed acknowledge that something is a GRAVE SIN, however, you don’t have the faculty to tell someone they’ve committed a MORTAL sin because you don’t know their degree of knowledge or free will in the execution of that sin.

 

[guanophore]

I did not want to do this at all… G-d willing, I guess I have to, in order to prove my point. Ugh… Now like half the members on this board will put me on block…

I myself am gay. I grew up a very “normal” lifestyle if that is what you want to call it. Pretty religious Catholic, everything.

I had always liked other guys from when I was a kid. But I would always read that it was just a typical phase, and it would go away. So I never worried about it.

Then, high school started. And my friend had gotten a girlfriend. All was well. I was happy for him! However, then I started questioning why I had never had a girlfriend… Many girls had asked me out… I turned them all down. I was like “why?”

Then, I thought about it and realized I was gay. It was horrible. I did everything I could to change myself. I mean I did EVERYTHING. You name it, I probably tried.

I contacted Priests from all over, I prayed and prayed and prayed for literally hours at a time, I did everything.

I did not “act” gay whatever that is supposed to mean. I just… Liked guys.

And I spent about 4 years in depression, just trying and wanting to become straight. I tried committing suicide once because ti was so hard.

I was not “scared” to become straight. Heck no. I wanted to be straight. And I did not want to come out.

Then, finally I came out… I did not want to, nor did I plan to… But, my family found out I was gay buy a note I had written to a friend.

I was not literally, but nevertheless one could say I was disowned. Total silence in my house. No one wanted to talk to me about it, and I was seriously hated. It was the worse time of my life.

Don’t freaking tell me that I chose all I have had to go through.

And you say that you were molested as a child by a men, and you were afraid to be with men…

Ok, well most BOYS who are molested by MEN become gay. What, why do they not fear men? After all, it was a guy that raped them… So why do they wish to have a relationship with guys? If it is so fearful.

Perhaps you thought you were a lesbian, but you were really just scared to be with men. Perhaps you felt safe with a woman, but never really loved women. You just were too scared of men.

Which is why in your case, you may have very well chosen such.

But most do not choose. Most truly love the same sex, and just can not fall in love with the opposite.

So if I am choosing being gay… Tell me… How do I “get out” of this “lifestyle?” Please tell me how, and G-d willing we will see if I can mysteriously “become” straight all of a sudden.

My goodness…

Thank you for posting, french. Clearly you have struggled and suffered much. I believe that some people are born with SSA, and they discover this in themselves, generally by puberty, if not before. I also believe there are some people that have the capacity for bisexual attraction, and choose a gay lifestyle for psychosocial reasons. In either case, attraction/orientation is innate. The choice comes in how a person decides to cope with or live out their experience. the church calls homosexual persons to celibacy, so that is the way to “get out of the lifestyle”. Commitment to celibacy does not necessarily mean a person will not struggle with attraction (feelings, desires, fantasies, etc.).

You are wrong that most boys who are molested become gay. This is not the case. There is a great deal more sexual abuse of males that society wants to admit, but the majority of males who are sexually molested/raped do not become molesters, nor does it change their sexual orientation.

 

[guanophore]

Gosh, I pray that G-d will open your mind and change your ultra materialistic ways.

There was nothing materialistic in the post you reference.

You know, if you want to talk about sin… Then let’s talk about something that Jesus made VERY clear… Divorce.

Matthew 5 says that whoever divorces his wife, has caused her to commit adultery.

You are right that divorce is a serious sin, and no less so than homosexual acts. It is also true that many of those pointing the finger and castigating homosexuals are the same people that are also making violations of chastity in other areas, which is hypocritical. However, Jesus taught that a man who divorced his wife committed adultery because in those days, women were considered property, and did not live alone, or support themselves (other than prostitution) without a man. A divorced woman was forced to give herself to another man in order to survive.

So, divorce = Adultery.

In this day and age, it is possible for a divorced person to remain celibate, whether it is a man or a woman, so divorce does not necessarily equal adultery, at least, in the US. However, that does not negate divorce being a sin in itself. However, you are getting off the topic of the thread, on this point.

Adultery = Grave sin. Includes sex before marriage.

This is not entirelly correct either. Adultery is sexual involvement with someone who has been given to another in marriage. Sex before marriage between two persons who have not yet been married is fornication.

So, how many people do you know who have had sex before marriage? I would say at least 70% of my friends.

Sometimes, we have to leave things between the person and G-d. And, we also need to be open to how one interprets Scripture.

Sin is sin, no matter how many people are committing it. It is not only between the person and God, because these behaviors affect whole families, and society also. It also incurs the wrath of God revealed from heaven.

Have you even bothered to ask what he thought on the “anti gay” verses in the Bible?

“Something good always comes out of something bad.”

Ever heard that quote before?

I ponder all the verses of the bible, some more than others. God is able to make good come out of all kinds of evil, but only for those who are obedient to His commandments.

Perhaps maybe when someone realizes they are gay, they stop judging. Judging is a disgusting sin (Luke 6:37) They stop condemning so much, which is also a sin (same verse.)

When one learns to tolerate oneself, then one is able to be more tolerant of others. When one has an adequate grasp of their own shortcomings, then one is able to be more compassionate about those of others. It is not limited to sexual sin. I am sure that Peter, after he denied our Lord, was able to be more compassionate with others who did the same.

They usually care more about others, and give more to the poor, which is a necessity (Romans 13:9; Luke 6:38 ; Mark 12:31; Psalms 82:3, among many others.)

Yes, humility, a grace of the Spirit that is enhanced by a right perception of oneself, does manifest itself in greater compassion.

Or, it could have done something like it did to me… I have studied the Bible so much, to try and see what the Bible says on homosexuality, that I have a lot of the Bible memorized!!

Good for you!

And may G-d be with all of those who are Celibate!

And have you ever even asked this member if he participated in homosexual sex, or just love?

Celibacy is a gift of God and can be a blessing if it is received witih thanksgiving. Some persons kick against the goads, and do not receive the gift they are given, and cause themselves much suffering.

 

[FLCathMom]

and just can not fall in love with the opposite.

I think this is interesting. If one cannot fall in love with the opposite sex, does that mean this person is a homosexual? Some people were created to live as single people- I think this was more commonly accepted in the past. Nowadays with our sex-saturated culture, we think everyone must have sex. I could see someone who does not have that inclination coming to the conclusion that “I must be gay.” I’m not saying that is the case with you, it’s just a thought. I hope I am not offending you- I really don’t know too much about this.