Gays and transexuals

[roelblomsma]

Investigations have proven that many gays and people who want to change of sex have a distorion in the brain due to a wrong balance between sex-hormones (testosteron and oestogen). Now, considering the fact that they are born with this, how can they be held for account, as in why is it a sin to be so?

It’s a bit like, well if you have an epileptical attack your probably possessed by a demon. If you are born with some other defect, then that is probably due to a punishment of God. I mean, such reasoning is nowadays considered nasty and unfair.

Could we say that some gays are not to blame for their condition?

Also, incest and rape can make boys homosexual. If as a child you were molested and due to that psychological trauma you become gay…are you to blame?

 

[Windfish]

We can only be held accountable for how we act, gay or straight.

I am not so sure about your studies, btw. The journals I have seen speculate that there might be conditions in the womb which may affect sexual orientation, but not anything definitive. Right now, the origin of our orientations are largely unexplained.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Investigations have proven that many gays and people who want to change of sex have a distorion in the brain due to a wrong balance between sex-hormones (testosteron and oestogen). Now, considering the fact that they are born with this, how can they be held for account, as in why is it a sin to be so?

Suppose that serial killers are born that way, e.g., due to a defect in the part of the brain that feels empathy. Does that make it moral for them to go around killing?

Suppose that adulterous men are born with such a high level of some hormone related to sexual desire that it is much more difficult for them to be faithful to one woman. Does that make it moral for them to go around committing adultery?

I’m afraid I can’t deem a particular behavior moral simply because a person might be born with an innate tendency towards that behavior.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

**2359 **Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

From the catechism vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

Suppose that serial killers are born that way, e.g., due to a defect in the part of the brain that feels empathy. Does that make it moral for them to go around killing?

Suppose that adulterous men are born with such a high level of some hormone related to sexual desire that it is much more difficult for them to be faithful to one woman. Does that make it moral for them to go around committing adultery?

I’m afraid I can’t deem a particular behavior moral simply because a person might be born with an innate tendency towards that behavior.

No, neither of these actions are moral. Their tendencies must be kept in check because they interfere with others rights. The killer’s action interferes with others live. The adulterer’s actions interfere with the promise that he made to his wife.

Two consenting adults however… whose rights are they interfering with?

I agree that being born with a tendency doesn’t automatically make it moral. But there needs to be a reason to deem it immoral as well.

 

[Cristiano]

No, neither of these actions are moral. Their tendencies must be kept in check because they interfere with others rights. The killer’s action interferes with others live. The adulterer’s actions interfere with the promise that he made to his wife.

Two consenting adults however… whose rights are they interfering with?

I agree that being born with a tendency doesn’t automatically make it moral. But there needs to be a reason to deem it immoral as well.

Where does morality come from?

 

[Joe_5859]

We can only be held accountable for how we act, gay or straight.

I am not so sure about your studies, btw. The journals I have seen speculate that there might be conditions in the womb which may affect sexual orientation, but not anything definitive. Right now, the origin of our orientations are largely unexplained.

Bingo. There are many, many people who like to say that they have the definitive explanation for why people have a homosexual orientation, but nothing has been proven conclusively. The media certainly likes to latch on to anything they possibly can. I’m not sure why people on both sides of the debate seem to argue as if the biology of it all will determine the morality of the act. It won’t.

Whether the orientation is the result of genetics, childhood trauma, or some other such factors that are beyond a person’s control has no bearing on the fact that the homosexual act itself is intrinsically disordered. It certainly may play a large role in an individual’s personal culpability for those acts. This is why we are not to judge the state of another’s soul who may be entrapped in that lifestyle.

As Just Lurking said, you can pick virtually any sin and conjecture that people are “born that way”, but that doesn’t make those acts morally justifiable. It simply might mean that God will take that into account on Judgment Day.

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

Where does morality come from?

Society. Humans are social. We can’t live individually. We need each other. Stealing, killing, etc. are immoral because they are detrimental to a society, no matter how large or small. Societal groups that frown on these behaviors tend to flourish mush better than those who don’t.

Many believe that God helped us see these kind of societal rules in order to be help us live. He gave us tips so that we can prosper. Killing, stealing, etc. would be wrong whether or not God told us they were, but a little guidance to help us learn is always helpful.

However, this thread is on homosexuals, not the origin of morality, so I don’t want to derail the thread too much.

 

[dailey]

Being gay is not a sin…acting on it is.

 

[philokalia7]

Having heterosexual sex between two consenting adults who are not married is a mortal sin called fornication, two consenting same sex adults commit a sin of even greater magnitude because their sexual expression violates the created order, yet it is still a mortal sin. Am I speaking the truth when I say that homosexual fornication is a more grave mortal sin than heterosexual fornication? They are both mortal sins, one being more grave than the other?

 

[Cristiano]

Society. Humans are social. We can’t live individually. We need each other. Stealing, killing, etc. are immoral because they are detrimental to a society, no matter how large or small. Societal groups that frown on these behaviors tend to flourish mush better than those who don’t.

Many believe that God helped us see these kind of societal rules in order to be help us live. He gave us tips so that we can prosper. Killing, stealing, etc. would be wrong whether or not God told us they were, but a little guidance to help us learn is always helpful.

However, this thread is on homosexuals, not the origin of morality, so I don’t want to derail the thread too much.

When you say society do you mean all the members of the social group or only a subset of such ensemble?

Do you assume that morality and law are the same thing?

 

[RichP]

Investigations have proven that many gays and people who want to change of sex have a distorion in the brain due to a wrong balance between sex-hormones (testosteron and oestogen). Now, considering the fact that they are born with this, how can they be held for account, as in why is it a sin to be so?

If those investigations were* true*, with 100% reliability, there would be thousands if not millions of pregnant women flooding doctor’s offices and hospitals asking to be tested to insure the right balance of hormones. And if they couldn’t get the hormones balanced, how many women would then choose to have an abortion? Also, there would be lots of parents having their children tested to insure they have the right hormone balance and, if not correct, have them take whatever needs to be taken to insure they become hetrosexual or homosexual as the case may be…

Personally, I think that many people in the GLBT community are using some obscure research to “prove” that their condition is “natural” because they were born with it and, since they were born that way, their behaviors should be protected by governments and not be restricted in any manner especially by any religion…

There are some Christian denominations and non Christian religions where being homosexual is a sin. However, as other posters have pointed out, the Catholic Church only considers the behavior sinful. Just *being *homosexual is not a sin.

Could we say that some gays are not to blame for their condition?

Also, incest and rape can make boys homosexual. If as a child you were molested and due to that psychological trauma you become gay…are you to blame?

You are correct that there are many reasons why one is gay or transgender. There are circumstances where they definintely should not be blamed for their condition. But this does not justify their behaviors. As difficult as this sounds, they should work through the pain and hurt the trauma caused.

No, neither of these actions are moral. Their tendencies must be kept in check because they interfere with others rights. The killer’s action interferes with others live. The adulterer’s actions interfere with the promise that he made to his wife.

Two consenting adults however… whose rights are they interfering with?

I agree that being born with a tendency doesn’t automatically make it moral. But there needs to be a reason to deem it immoral as well.

Sinful actions not only break one’s relationship with God but they also break one’s relationship with other people, with society, and, by extension, mankind. You might be thinking that this is crazy talk… How can two consenting adults be sinning against *mankind? *The main purpose of marriage is to have and raise children as an expression of the love between a husband and wife. It has been proven that the best way to have and raise children is in a loving, stable family. Any sexual relations without the intent of being open to having a child as the result is sinful because it does not provide for the preservation of mankind and it uses a person for one’s selfish needs.

The contraceptive mentality of “all I want to do is have some fun” and NOT have any children is starting to destroy some countries in Europe and Asia where the birth rate has fallen below the replacement rate significantly in the past several decades.

Finally, is it really* okay* to be used by someone else whether it be sexual or whatever? Why would anyone “consent” if one is an adult to be deprived of their dignity and worth as a human being and as a child of God for a few minutes of “pleasure”?

 

[Elijah_Baley]

Am I speaking the truth when I say that homosexual fornication is a more grave mortal sin than heterosexual fornication?

No.

They are both mortal sins, one being more grave than the other?

No.

Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil, which means that the motive and the circumstance cannot mitigate its immorality. Same with fornication, adultery, abortion, et al.

 

[philokalia7]

Elijah Bailey, you are wrong, Yes Homosexual fornication is a mortal sin, just because it
is intrinsically evil does not mean it is not a mortal sin. Most definitely homosexual fornication is a mortal sin. Elijah you do not understand the concepts of logic. I will agree with homosexual acts are intrinsically evil and they are also mortal sins. Most if not all actions which are mortal sins are also intrinsically evil such as murder, rape, and bestiality. What is your education level Elijah? Have you studied the beauties of Logic?

 

[Elijah_Baley]

Elijah Bailey, you are wrong, Yes Homosexual fornication is a mortal sin, just because it
is intrinsically evil does not mean it is not a mortal sin. Most definitely homosexual fornication is a mortal sin. Elijah you do not understand the concepts of logic. I will agree with homosexual acts are intrinsically evil and they are also mortal sins. Most if not all actions which are mortal sins are also intrinsically evil such as murder, rape, and bestiality.

Please read what I wrote. You are incorrect because there is no such thing as a “more grave” intrinsic evil.

What is your education level Elijah? Have you studied the beauties of Logic?

Bachelor’s degree, some post-bac work at a teacher’s college, no formal logic training, alas. I know enough to know you don’t quite know what I’m saying and that what you’re saying is untrue.

 

[philokalia7]

No.

No.

Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil, which means that the motive and the circumstance cannot mitigate its immorality. Same with fornication, adultery, abortion, et al.

Elijah I will also say with certainty yes homosexual fornication is a more grave mortal sin than heterosexual fornication. Heterosexual fornication can accomplish that purpose for which God created sex, that is procreation, whereas homosexual sex acts cannot achieve the purpose for which God created sex, also heterosexual sex is not intrinsically evil, it is only a sin when it occurs outside of marriage, Thus homosexual fornication is a more grave
mortal sin than heterosexual fornication. I have run into people like you before who do not understand the concepts of logic, what University did you receive your degree from? They failed to teach you the basics of reasonable and rational thought.

 

[Elijah_Baley]

Elijah I will also say with certainty yes homosexual fornication is a more grave mortal sin than heterosexual fornication.

Where in the Catechism does it say any such thing?

Heterosexual fornication can accomplish that purpose for which God created sex, that is procreation, whereas homosexual sex acts cannot achieve the purpose for which God created sex, also heterosexual sex is not intrinsically evil, it is only a sin when it occurs outside of marriage, Thus homosexual fornication is a more grave mortal sin than heterosexual fornication.

Heterosexual acts outside marriage are still immoral. Let’s turn what you say on it’s head — as Chesterton notes, there is little which cannot be made clearer by turning it upside down. If homosexual acts are inherently more evil than heterosexual acts which are already evil, that is to say that heterosexual acts are always more moral than homosexual acts, that they cannot be equally sinful.

To decry homosexual acts as less immoral serves what purpose? I don’t see how it has any effect but to bracket sinners into a group where other sinners may more easily throw stones at them.

Friend, you’re very off-track here.

I have run into people like you before who do not understand the concepts of logic, what University did you receive your degree from? They failed to teach you the basics of reasonable and rational thought.

Fresno State, not that it matters. That school had as much to do with my education as the DMV had with teaching me to drive.

 

[JDaniel]

Where in the Catechism does it say any such thing?

Heterosexual acts outside marriage are still immoral. Let’s turn what you say on it’s head — as Chesterton notes, there is little which cannot be made clearer by turning it upside down. If homosexual acts are inherently more evil than heterosexual acts which are already evil, that is to say that heterosexual acts are always more moral than homosexual acts, that they cannot be equally sinful.

To decry homosexual acts as less immoral serves what purpose? I don’t see how it has any effect but to bracket sinners into a group where other sinners may more easily throw stones at them.

Friend, you’re very off-track here.

Fresno State, not that it matters. That school had as much to do with my education as the DMV had with teaching me to drive.

Elijah:

I could be wrong, but, I think Philokalia is viewing the homosexual act as two mortal sins in form, instead of one: (1) congress outside of marriage, and, (2) the act being closed to procreation. I think he/she sees the combination as one graver sin, which, in some ways, it could be construed so, don’t you think?.

Philokalia, is this why you are thinking the homosexual act is more grave?

God bless,
jd

 

[Charlemagne_II]

The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed not for fornication, but for sodomite fornication. There is no comparable destruction of cities for fornication alone. That does not mean that fornication is not also damnable. But if Dante is right, there will in hell be circles within circles, and lowest depths that we can hardly imagine.

“In the 3rd ring of the 7th Circle. The third ring–inside the first two–is a barren plain of sand ignited by flakes of fire that torment three separate groups of violent offenders against God: those who offend God directly (blasphemers: Inferno 14); those who violate nature, God’s offspring (sodomites: Inferno 15-16); and those who harm industry and the economy. (Inferno 17).”

 

[Betterave]

To decry homosexual acts as -]less/-] more immoral serves what purpose? I don’t see how it has any effect but to bracket sinners into a group where other sinners may more easily throw stones at them.

The point of noting that one grave sin is worse than another is to understand reality, to apprehend the truth. We’re talking about *sins *though, that is, their matter or object, not personal culpability, so this should be no excuse for throwing stones at anybody.