Gays In The Military

[RHC]

I disagree. This is what is being “said,” but the actual argument for it is so weak that I consider it to be a mask. When people get charged up, the double-standards are then revealed. This is simply about aversion to homosexuality, and primarily the hetero male aversion.

Just because you think that’s what this is about, doesn’t make it so. This is actually about uprooting a decent and fair policy to push a social agenda on our warfighters during a time of combat.

 

[sedonaman]

…The debate is about whether or not it will negatively effect the environment that our military exist in.

I disagree. The debate is about whether or not 2% of the population is going to force the other 98% to ignore their consciences.

 

[larkin31]

Again, you speak from misinformation. DADT means we don’t ask, you don’t tell. So, your scenario above is wrong. Soldiers, under the DADT policy, don’t ask if someone’s gay…hence the “don’t ask” part of the “don’t ask, don’t tell” name. Why would saying, “No, I don’t have a girlfriend back home” and leaving it at that be a problem?

I strongly suggest you stop making snide remarks about “silly” comments.

It was worse than silly, and I refrained myself in saying from saying so. “shouting from the rooftop”??? I am not being snide.

If you think that soldiers don’t ask each other about romances, husbands, wives and such, you are mistaken.

 

[ERose]

I disagree. This is what is being “said,” but the actual argument for it is so weak that I consider it to be a mask. When people get charged up, the double-standards are then revealed. This is simply about aversion to homosexuality, and primarily the hetero male aversion.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The argument that you are offering is weak as well and has no substance or experience behind it. All I know is that I have been in that environment and I know the people who are in that environment and I know that it would not work. The man would never fit in and never be accepted. And if you are going to do this you might as well allow men and women to share the same living space as well. There really is no difference and you have not provided an argument that made sense against this point.

 

[larkin31]

I disagree. The debate is about whether or not 2% of the population is going to force the other 98% to ignore their consciences.

Which 98%?

Have you checked the results of this poll?

 

[ERose]

I also want to make another point. If you have never been in the military especially the combat arms side of the military you cannot fully understand the environment that these soldiers, sailors & marines exist in day in and day out. There is not an experience you can have in my opinion in the civilian sector that comes close to the military life. If you don’t believe me ask someone you know that has experienced that life and he will tell you the same.

 

[larkin31]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The argument that you are offering is weak as well and has no substance or experience behind it. All I know is that I have been in that environment and I know the people who are in that environment and I know that it would not work. The man would never fit in and never be accepted. And if you are going to do this you might as well allow men and women to share the same living space as well. There really is no difference and you have not provided an argument that made sense against this point.

You keep repeating only “that there is no difference.” How about if you even explain how that claim is true? I have twice now explained that “attraction” is different from “conduct,” and how both gays and straights are MUCH MORE attracted to persons of the sexual orientations that match their own rather than simply to the body of a person across a room. I offer ALL of my 50+ years of living experience in support of this. If, perhaps, soldiers in the military behave differently from all the adults that I have known outside the military in terms of their sexual conduct, then please tell me.

 

[PatriceA]

I also want to make another point. If you have never been in the military especially the combat arms side of the military you cannot fully understand the environment that these soldiers, sailors & marines exist in day in and day out. There is not an experience you can have in my opinion in the civilian sector that comes close to the military life. If you don’t believe me ask someone you know that has experienced that life and he will tell you the same.

Larkin31 seems to magically ignore all of us in the military community that have posted similar comments.

 

[larkin31]

I also want to make another point. If you have never been in the military especially the combat arms side of the military you cannot fully understand the environment that these soldiers, sailors & marines exist in day in and day out. There is not an experience you can have in my opinion in the civilian sector that comes close to the military life.

Tell us how so. Just do some elaboration please. Tell us how the rest of us can work next to a gay person and even share a bathroom with them, but the military can’t.

 

[RHC]

It was worse than silly, and I refrained myself in saying from saying so. “shouting from the rooftop”??? I am not being snide.

It was hyperbole. Here is the definition:

Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpɜrbəli/,[1] from ancient Greek ὑπερβολή ‘exaggeration’), is a rhetorical device in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. Hyperboles are figures of speech that are exaggerated in order to create emphasis or effect.

Larkin31 wrote:
If you think that soldiers don’t ask each other about romances, husbands, wives and such, you are mistaken.

I live in the military community. My husband is a soldier. I actually know quite well - from experience - what they talk about.

You have no experience. You have not touched on the substantive parts of this argument - the logistics, the EO issue, the troops’ morale, the danger to the mission. But you say my argument is weak…

 

[larkin31]

Larkin31 seems to magically ignore all of us in the military community that have posted similar comments.

Again, exactly what the south said about “understanding” their treatment of blacks. This is not a valid argument unless you elaborate. It is simply a claim, like, “men don’t know women,” or “adults don’t know children,” or “the skinny can’t understand the obese.” Well, if these are true, then it is incumbent on those “in the know” to explain exactly what it is that the rest of us do not understand.

 

[PatriceA]

Tell us how so. Just do some elaboration please. Tell us how the rest of us can work next to a gay person and even share a bathroom with them, but the military can’t.

Does your job put you in harm’s way? Do you come under fire and have to worry about car bombs or suicide bombers where you work?

Unless you have had that kind of job, you can’t explain it to someone that has never been in that kind of job position. Its not just about something as simple as sharing a bathroom with someone else.

 

[larkin31]

It was hyperbole. Here is the definition:

I live in the military community. My husband is a soldier. I actually know quite well - from experience - what they talk about.

You have no experience. You have not touched on the substantive parts of this argument - the logistics, the EO issue, the troops’ morale, the danger to the mission. But you say my argument is weak…

How does the presence of a gay affect troop morale? Please explain.

and hyperbole is not effective argument. It is empty rhetoric.

 

[RHC]

Tell us how so. Just do some elaboration please. Tell us how the rest of us can work next to a gay person and even share a bathroom with them, but the military can’t.

Ok…going to the bathroom with a gay guy in the next stall is worlds apart from living, fighting, eating, and sleeping next to a gay person. Do you shower in a big, communal shower with your co-workers? Do you sleep in a big room with 40 or so of them? Do you spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with them for nine to 12 months on end in a hostile environment, in combat? It’s the difference between working in an office building and fighting in the dirt with mortar rounds, rockets, suicide bombers, snipers, and IEDs as part of your daily “work.”

 

[ERose]

You keep repeating only “that there is no difference.” How about if you even explain how that claim is true? I have twice now explained that “attraction” is different from “conduct,” and how both gays and straights are MUCH MORE attracted to persons of the sexual orientations that match their own rather than simply to the body of a person across a room. I offer ALL of my 50+ years of living experience in support of this. If, perhaps, soldiers in the military behave differently from all the adults that I have known outside the military in terms of their sexual conduct, then please tell me.

First there is no proof anywhere that you can find that can be substantiated that you can use to support the idea that gays are only attacted to gays and straights are only attacted to straights. That does not make any sense. 2nd: When you place people into a situation that increase the opportunity of misconduct there is going to be misconduct. 3rd: Soldiers do ACT and THINK differently than civilians, because the environments are completely different and that comes from my actual experience in the military which you have displayed you cannot comprehend.

 

[larkin31]

Does your job put you in harm’s way? Do you come under fire and have to worry about car bombs or suicide bombers where you work?

Unless you have had that kind of job, you can’t explain it to someone that has never been in that kind of job position.

This is not true. You CAN and must explain. It is your obligation in terms of defending policy. Leaders MUST and DO explain. If you can’t, then find someone who can.

 

[larkin31]

I disagree. The debate is about whether or not 2% of the population is going to force the other 98% to ignore their consciences.

Yeses are still leading.

And what does “conscience” have to do with this? The brevity of this remark strikes me also as a mask of some other position.

 

[PatriceA]

Again, exactly what the south said about “understanding” their treatment of blacks. This is not a valid argument unless you elaborate. It is simply a claim, like, “men don’t know women,” or “adults don’t know children,” or “the skinny can’t understand the obese.” Well, if these are true, then it is incumbent on those “in the know” to explain exactly what it is that the rest of us do not understand.

If my point of view or decision affects a whole job industry and I have no personal experience with that job industry, I am certainly going to seek out the expert opinions of those people in that job industry under consideration and actually listen to their opinion. If was a CEO of a business and I had to make a decision that affected the morale of my company, I’m certainly going to ask their experience and opinions before I make a decision that could potentially negatively affect their safety on the job.

 

[larkin31]

Ok…going to the bathroom with a gay guy in the next stall is worlds apart from living, fighting, eating, and sleeping next to a gay person. Do you shower in a big, communal shower with your co-workers? Do you sleep in a big room with 40 or so of them? Do you spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with them for nine to 12 months on end in a hostile environment, in combat? It’s the difference between working in an office building and fighting in the dirt with mortar rounds, rockets, suicide bombers, snipers, and IEDs as part of your daily “work.”

surrounded by 40 or so gays? No, I don’t. Soldiers don’t either. Soldiers can’t handle sleeping, cleaning, and fighting next to gays in a ratio of, say, 3 out of every 100? That seems ridiculous to me. I want to hear WHY NOT. What is this really about? Are gays not trusted to fight well, defend their country? Take a bullet for their squadmate?

 

[larkin31]

If my point of view or decision affects a whole job industry and I have no personal experience with that job industry, I am certainly going to seek out the expert opinions of those people in that job industry under consideration and actually listen to their opinion. If was a CEO of a business and I had to make a decision that affected the morale of my company, I’m certainly going to ask their experience and opinions before I make a decision that could potentially negatively affect their safety on the job.

I agree. And each president that has looked into this has consulted the leaders of the military. This is not in question.