Gays in the military

[BlestOne]

The UK military had the same kind of rule until recent years. It was of course based on homophobic prejudice against gays and lesbians.

The rule was removed, and now we see gay and lesbian people marching openly in uniform in gay pride marches - along with firemen, police, etc.

The US moral code seems to be derived mainly from evangelical prudes and we have an opportunity as Catholics to avoid such discrimination against our fellow human beings. Let’s not fall into the trap of being religious bigots - that is what Jesus rescues us from. Let’s not be the Taliban of the Christian world.

There is so much wrong with this post… Let’s start with the fact that you think this is based on homophobia… NO… it is based on unit cohesiveness and a higher moral principle.

Second, you would not see any gays or lesbians in military uniform at a gay rights parade because we have strict standards of when you can wear the uniform… unless the US govt sanctions a gay parade… they wouldn’t be in uniform.

Third… you should never be able to tell a persons preference by looking at them… US military members are not allowed to conduct themselves in such a way in public. A husband and wife can’t kiss in public in uniform…

Taliban of the Christian world??? you must be kidding!!! Do you or I or anyone need to know a persons sexual preference by looking at them? I don’t think it is appropriate for anyone to make out in public, but our armed forces are especially vigilant of their appearance while in uniform!

 

[He_Man]

Of course we would also have to ban any student with SSA from ever attending college and living at the dorms because he would have to shower with the men.

When college students start fighting for our lives and freedoms, this will be a relevant point. As for now, we can’t compare college students to military members.

There is a reason most people are actually served in the military oppose open homosexuality. Even the slightest discord or breaking of union and order can be devistating to our military. General Schwarzkopf once pointed our “the military is no place for a socail expiriment.” Much like those who are the loudest critics of Priestly celibacy are often not Catholic at all, the most vitriollic critics of the ban on homosexuality in the military is typically from those who have no idea what serving in the military is like.

Their primary role (which cannot be sacrified for other “nice to haves”) is to fight and defeat our enemies, and protect our country. All other “perks” are relegated to a subordinate priority under that.

 

[estesbob]

The UK military had the same kind of rule until recent years. It was of course based on homophobic prejudice against gays and lesbians.

The rule was removed, and now we see gay and lesbian people marching openly in uniform in gay pride marches - along with firemen, police, etc.

The US moral code seems to be derived mainly from evangelical prudes and we have an opportunity as Catholics to avoid such discrimination against our fellow human beings. Let’s not fall into the trap of being religious bigots - that is what Jesus rescues us from. Let’s not be the Taliban of the Christian world.

There is NO comparison between the US Military and the Military of any other country. The UK is realtively small compared to the US and does not execute the type and volume of the missions common in the United States Military. No one has a right to serve in the military and the miltary is not a jobs program. The current policy of no adultery and keeping ones same sex behavior to themselves works very well.excpet for those who want to use the militray for social engineering.

BTW-please drop the specious term homophobia. There are even less people in the country that suffer from homophobia than there are homosexuals. Generally when one sees that term used it is a transaparent attempt to stop the discussion in its tracks by claiming those you disagree with are bigots.

 

[ritthichai]

There is so much wrong with this post… Let’s start with the fact that you think this is based on homophobia… NO… it is based on unit cohesiveness and a higher moral principle.

I am describing the experience in the UK - not in the US. Since the silly rule was dropped the Royal Navy has become one of the most gay-friendly employers in the country. There have always been gays and lesbians in the military - I think anyone would concede that point!

Being gay in the military is no longer an issue in the UK - or in most European countries. It is an issue in the 'Staes because of homophobia - that’s all.

 

[fix]

I am describing the experience in the UK - not in the US. Since the silly rule was dropped the Royal Navy has become one of the most gay-friendly employers in the country. There have always been gays and lesbians in the military - I think anyone would concede that point!

Being gay in the military is no longer an issue in the UK - or in most European countries. It is an issue in the 'Staes because of homophobia - that’s all.

What do you mean by homophobia?

 

[estesbob]

BlestOne;3011887:

There is so much wrong with this post… Let’s start with the fact that you think this is based on homophobia… NO… it is based on unit cohesiveness and a higher moral principle.

I am describing the experience in the UK - not in the US. Since the silly rule was dropped the Royal Navy has become one of the most gay-friendly employers in the country. There have always been gays and lesbians in the military - I think anyone would concede that point!

Being gay in the military is no longer an issue in the UK - or in most European countries. It is an issue in the 'Staes because of homophobia - that’s all.

So much for intelligent dicussion-. Ill check back later to see if you have any more coherent arguments other than "thats the way we do things here and you are a bunch of bigots .

 

[He_Man]

BlestOne;3011887:

There is so much wrong with this post… Let’s start with the fact that you think this is based on homophobia… NO… it is based on unit cohesiveness and a higher moral principle.

I am describing the experience in the UK - not in the US. Since the silly rule was dropped the Royal Navy has become one of the most gay-friendly employers in the country. There have always been gays and lesbians in the military - I think anyone would concede that point!

Being gay in the military is no longer an issue in the UK - or in most European countries. It is an issue in the 'Staes because of homophobia - that’s all.

Unless have spent time in the US military, especially working at a strategic level, why do you think you are qualified to offer an opinion on how to improve the greatest military force on the planet?

Homophobia is a laughable notion. I don’t fear homosexuals. I disapprove of that lifestyle. There is a difference.

No uses the term pervaphobia for people who molest children, or killerpohobia for people who despire murder.

Last I checked, the US military is unsurpassed in most respects (I flew E-3s, so I know a little about our strengths); I don’t see where using any other military, which by default is going to be inferior, as a barometer for our standards is of any real use for us. That’s like Mr. Universe asking me for weight-lifting tips.

And England’s moral standards are not the same as those here (and in many ways, England has bigger issues that are sinking it; take a look at the growing Muslim population for one thing.) Both countries have issues, but rampant disapproval of homsexuality is not one of ours…

 

[Exalt]

Indeed, if I were attending college and I knew that one of the male dormitory residents was attracted to men, I wouldn’t want to share a shower with him.

Well aren’t you sure of yourself.

Post a pic and we’ll see if you have anything to worry about.

 

[Holly3278]

I think it has to do with keeping the morale of the military units up. Morale is likely to go down if one thinks that a gay member has a crush on you.

 

[BlestOne]

Unless have spent time in the US military, especially working at a strategic level, why do you think you are qualified to offer an opinion on how to improve the greatest military force on the planet?

Homophobia is a laughable notion. I don’t fear homosexuals. I disapprove of that lifestyle. There is a difference.

No uses the term pervaphobia for people who molest children, or killerpohobia for people who despire murder.

Last I checked, the US military is unsurpassed in most respects (I flew E-3s, so I know a little about our strengths); I don’t see where using any other military, which by default is going to be inferior, as a barometer for our standards is of any real use for us. That’s like Mr. Universe asking me for weight-lifting tips.

And England’s moral standards are not the same as those here (and in many ways, England has bigger issues that are sinking it; take a look at the growing Muslim population for one thing.) Both countries have issues, but rampant disapproval of homsexuality is not one of ours…

He Man… Were you referring to me or to ritthichai’s post? I sure hope you are not talking to me because I feel the same way… Yes I proudly served my country during Desert Shield/Desert Storm… and I don’t think ritthichai has a clue about Americans and their national pride and moral standards.

 

[He_Man]

He Man… Were you referring to me or to ritthichai’s post? I sure hope you are not talking to me because I feel the same way… Yes I proudly served my country during Desert Shield/Desert Storm… and I don’t think ritthichai has a clue about Americans and their national pride and moral standards.

Sorry, because of how his post was quoted, it made my postambiguous. I was referring to riththichai’s comments on the US military and US homophobia.

Sorry, didn’t mean to confuse anyone!

 

[Brendan]

Well aren’t you sure of yourself.

Post a pic and we’ll see if you have anything to worry about.

Why would you need a pic?

If a woman said that she was uncomfortable sharing a dorm shower with men, would you have said the same thing?

Would you want a daughter of yours to be placed in that situation?

If not, why would you place a son in the same position?

 

[rlg94086]

Well aren’t you sure of yourself.

Post a pic and we’ll see if you have anything to worry about.

Sure that I’m male? Yes, I’m sure.

You have asked a very strange question. Are homosexual men only attracted to a certain type of man…a certain look? In that case, they must be very, very different than heterosexual men. You convinced me…it is a mental illness.

 

[BlestOne]

Sorry, because of how his post was quoted, it made my postambiguous. I was referring to riththichai’s comments on the US military and US homophobia.

Sorry, didn’t mean to confuse anyone!

Just checking… that’s what I thought.

 

[East_and_West]

For one, we’re tested for HIV every year, and there are plenty of straight men who are infected too. HIV/AIDS is not a gay disease.

Yeah, but its more prevalent amongst gays because a higher rate of prosmicuity. BTW, i am saying this as a person who used to be involved in that life style.

 

[goofyjim]

Look, I did go to college and showered in the same shower area on the male dorms. I never hit upon any other guy and wouldn’t do it if I were in the military. I had a sense that there were also guys with SSA there but it didn’t bother me. Why does it bother anyone else? It denotes an underlying insecurity on the part of some.

 

[cascherman]

Of course we would also have to ban any student with SSA from ever attending college and living at the dorms because he would have to shower with the men.

I don’t know what college you went to but I never had to shower with other guys in the dorms.

Actually, in my life, I have never showered in the view of other men. Not because I’m morally against it but I always had an option for a private shower elsewhere.

btw- what is SSA?

 

[rlg94086]

btw- what is SSA?

Social Security Administration…

Okay…not in this context. SSA is used as an acronym for “same sex attraction.” The term “gay” often denotes someone who is actively living a homosexual lifestyle. Saying someone is a “homosexual” is found wanting by some, because it seems to denote a different variety of the human species. This is not the case - someone with same sex attraction is either male or female and no different in essence (their humanity) than someone who is attracted to the opposite sex. They just have an “objectively disordered” desire.

 

[Brendan]

Look, I did go to college and showered in the same shower area on the male dorms. I never hit upon any other guy and wouldn’t do it if I were in the military. .

I understand that.

And if I never hit on any of the women, how much support would I publically get if I attempted to shower with them?

Would anyone consider a woman who objected with being forced to shower in my presence be accused of heterophobia?

Would anyone even think that it would be wrong for the woman to object?

And if not, why would it be wrong for a man to object to being forced to share shower space with an admitted homosexual?

 

[AliciaCL]

I think the biggest reason against having gays in the military is the one about how it infringes on the bond between military members (“unit cohesion”) who have to serve effectivley as a unit. Gays now have to keep themselves in check, that is repress their attractions to fellow members. That is a stress. Those who are straight may feel their privacy is infringed upon in some situations, sleeping arrangements, showering. Would any straight man or woman ever feel comfortable dressing and showering in the company of the opposite sex? The problems with male/female sexual harassment in the military so often involve a more senior person taking advantage of a junior person. That same problem would extend to gays. It already does. There has been many a court-martial involving a more senior person getting a junior person drunk and taking advantage or him/her. I was a military JAG officer and have seen the records of trial. When that happens it’s a huge disruption to the unit, causes fear, resentment in others, makes the compliant gay people feel more in the closet than ever. Then there’s the emotional/social problems of gay sex shared between service members. Some may be seen to be getting favors, or simply getting some when the straight folks are left out. That’s how young men think. An how about the disrespect some service members feel toward a superior who is gay due to their own legitamate religious beliefs? When there are homosexual breakups, there’s more resentment, rumors in the unit, more disrespect for the person who caused the breakup. Young gays I think are more immature and apt to go wild with their homosexuality just as young straight men go wild when they become sexually active. These all contribute to a constant social problem with undercurrent fears, resentments, infringes on privacy, repression of homosexuals’ desires. That’s the unit cohesion problem. It’s big. Also there is a huge fear that open gays in the military would turn into what looks like a San Francisco gay parade. This is so hard to communicate to people because it’s nebulous but it is real. It causes emotional tension int he whole unit. Yes, there’s a significant decrease in social prejudice but the feelings I’ve discussed are still there. Just as the unspeakable sadness young college women especially feel after “hookups”; just use and move on. There is a lot of societal guilt behind the push to have gays become “equal” to heterosexuals. The lobbyists have found an effective tool. But the reality of seeing how cramped quarters people live on a submarine or ship at sea, for example day in and day out leave one with a thought that perhaps it makes sense to have don’t ask dont’ tell. It is NOT just a job. There are many problems still with women on ships for example that no one ever hears about because it isn’t PC. Women get pregnant by the dozens on purpose to get out of sea duty, they get involved with men on ships and it causes the same kind of problems I’m talking about. But the sexuality of young gay men, especially, openly practicing would be unbelievably detrimental. Many others who might have come into the military would just stay out --as many have done with the priesthood, afraid of not being left alone in the seminary. This is not bigotry; it is real pragmatism.