Gays

[HNA444]

Is being gay a sin? or is it just the act of it??? What i think is that being gay is not a sin, since it is biological. But, I do think it’s a sin if they act on it. But, than what should those peopl e who are gay do?? marry a woman, even though they are attracted to men? That must be really difficult!! Any thoughts on this ??

 

[rossobass420]

I agree that homosexuality in itself is not a sin, but any act pertaining to it is. Any sexual conduct, looking with lust, that sort of thing. That’s forbidden for straight people, unless they’re married, and gay people can’t be married to people of the same sex.

As for what they should do, they definitely shouldn’t marry a woman out of obligation. A woman deserves a man who loves and appreciates her in every way. A gay man can’t provide that, and that wouldn’t be fair to either of them. Beyond that, I’m not sure.

 

[baltobetsy]

What i think is that being gay is not a sin, since it is biological.

Don’t be quick to state this. It is a question that has never been definitively answered.

People who are attracted to members of their own gender are called to chastity, which for the unmarried means celibacy. There is help available from groups like Courage.

Betsy

 

[Newbie2]

We haven’t had a good “gay” thread for a while.

Homosexual acts are sinful. Homosexual orientation is not. Living chastely as a homosexually oriented person is difficult.

Dittos to what Betty wrote.

 

[tjm190]

Is being gay a sin? or is it just the act of it??? What i think is that being gay is not a sin, since it is biological. But, I do think it’s a sin if they act on it. But, than what should those peopl e who are gay do?? marry a woman, even though they are attracted to men? That must be really difficult!! Any thoughts on this ??

The Church’s teaching on sexuality is independent of sexual orientation. Everything that is applied to single straights applies to gays.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

People who are attracted to members of their own gender are called to chastity, which for the unmarried means celibacy.

Quick qualifier: people who are attracted to members of their own gender may *also *be attracted to the opposite sex. They would also be called to chastity (which means purity, not virginity), but to them conventional marriage would be much more appealing.

 

[manualman]

Homosexuality is such a lightning rod in our culture, has anyone stopped to wonder for a second… WHY?

The overall culture at large seems to be divided into two main groups:

1. Those who seek to normalize gay behavior.
2. Those who are repulsed by the very idea and show it in their actions words and towards gay people.

Why is group #3 so rare: Those who see same sex attraction (SSA) as just another sinful inclination that some suffer with and others don’t? I think THIS is what our faith calls us to believe.

I tend to think that group #1 is growing so large today partly because group 2 has been so large for so long.

Is there hatred for those who tell a lot of lies? Kind of, but only on a personal resentment level, not so much on principle. How about the heterosexually promiscuous? Not much!

A major mistake people are making in our society is to react against group #2 when they see gay people living typical lives, working for dreams, having relationships, etc (i.e. real people - good, if fallen!). They see these things and conclude that traditional morality was just bigotry all along. They then conclude that gay behavior is just fine morally.

But that’s terrible logic! All humans are sinful, and yet most of society live “typical lives, working for their dreams, having relationships, etc.” Just because gay people aren’t universally pathetic because of their behavior (the group #2 expectation) doesn’t disprove the immorality of gay behavior! I’ve met plenty of seemingly happy men that sleep around with women, but the damage occurs deep inside and it eventually shows, just like with any sin. Same goes for the harm caused by gay sex.

What it comes down to is whether or not we trust God to guide us to what is best for us in Scripture and Tradition. If we do, we believe that gay sex is always sinful (which is not to say that it is the Uber-sin). If we don’t believe that, we chart our own course and take our lumps - just like on any other issue.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Homosexuality is such a lightning rod in our culture, has anyone stopped to wonder for a second… WHY?

The overall culture at large seems to be divided into two main groups:

1. Those who seek to normalize gay behavior.
2. Those who are repulsed by the very idea and show it in their actions words and towards gay people.

Why is group #3 so rare: Those who see same sex attraction (SSA) as just another sinful inclination that some suffer with and others don’t? I think THIS is what our faith calls us to believe.

I tend to think that group #1 is growing so large today partly because group 2 has been so large for so long.

Is there hatred for those who tell a lot of lies? Kind of, but only on a personal resentment level, not so much on principle. How about the heterosexually promiscuous? Not much!

A major mistake people are making in our society is to react against group #2 when they see gay people living typical lives, working for dreams, having relationships, etc (i.e. real people - good, if fallen!). They see these things and conclude that traditional morality was just bigotry all along. They then conclude that gay behavior is just fine morally.

But that’s terrible logic! All humans are sinful, and yet most of society live “typical lives, working for their dreams, having relationships, etc.” Just because gay people aren’t universally pathetic because of their behavior (the group #2 expectation) doesn’t disprove the immorality of gay behavior! I’ve met plenty of seemingly happy men that sleep around with women, but the damage occurs deep inside and it eventually shows, just like with any sin. Same goes for the harm caused by gay sex.

What it comes down to is whether or not we trust God to guide us to what is best for us in Scripture and Tradition. If we do, we believe that gay sex is always sinful (which is not to say that it is the Uber-sin). If we don’t believe that, we chart our own course and take our lumps - just like on any other issue.

What a clear and insightful assessment! Thank you, Manualman.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

Homosexuality is such a lightning rod in our culture, has anyone stopped to wonder for a second… WHY?

The overall culture at large seems to be divided into two main groups:

1. Those who seek to normalize gay behavior.
2. Those who are repulsed by the very idea and show it in their actions words and towards gay people.

Why is group #3 so rare: Those who see same sex attraction (SSA) as just another sinful inclination that some suffer with and others don’t? I think THIS is what our faith calls us to believe.

I tend to think that group #1 is growing so large today partly because group 2 has been so large for so long.

Is there hatred for those who tell a lot of lies? Kind of, but only on a personal resentment level, not so much on principle. How about the heterosexually promiscuous? Not much!

A major mistake people are making in our society is to react against group #2 when they see gay people living typical lives, working for dreams, having relationships, etc (i.e. real people - good, if fallen!). They see these things and conclude that traditional morality was just bigotry all along. They then conclude that gay behavior is just fine morally.

But that’s terrible logic! All humans are sinful, and yet most of society live “typical lives, working for their dreams, having relationships, etc.” Just because gay people aren’t universally pathetic because of their behavior (the group #2 expectation) doesn’t disprove the immorality of gay behavior! I’ve met plenty of seemingly happy men that sleep around with women, but the damage occurs deep inside and it eventually shows, just like with any sin. Same goes for the harm caused by gay sex.

What it comes down to is whether or not we trust God to guide us to what is best for us in Scripture and Tradition. If we do, we believe that gay sex is always sinful (which is not to say that it is the Uber-sin). If we don’t believe that, we chart our own course and take our lumps - just like on any other issue.

Amen, brother, and thank you for expressing this so well and so charitably!

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Homosexuality is such a lightning rod in our culture, has anyone stopped to wonder for a second… WHY?

The overall culture at large seems to be divided into two main groups:

1. Those who seek to normalize gay behavior.
2. Those who are repulsed by the very idea and show it in their actions words and towards gay people.

Why is group #3 so rare: Those who see same sex attraction (SSA) as just another sinful inclination that some suffer with and others don’t? I think THIS is what our faith calls us to believe.

I tend to think that group #1 is growing so large today partly because group 2 has been so large for so long.

Is there hatred for those who tell a lot of lies? Kind of, but only on a personal resentment level, not so much on principle. How about the heterosexually promiscuous? Not much!

A major mistake people are making in our society is to react against group #2 when they see gay people living typical lives, working for dreams, having relationships, etc (i.e. real people - good, if fallen!). They see these things and conclude that traditional morality was just bigotry all along. They then conclude that gay behavior is just fine morally.

But that’s terrible logic! All humans are sinful, and yet most of society live “typical lives, working for their dreams, having relationships, etc.” Just because gay people aren’t universally pathetic because of their behavior (the group #2 expectation) doesn’t disprove the immorality of gay behavior! I’ve met plenty of seemingly happy men that sleep around with women, but the damage occurs deep inside and it eventually shows, just like with any sin. Same goes for the harm caused by gay sex.

What it comes down to is whether or not we trust God to guide us to what is best for us in Scripture and Tradition. If we do, we believe that gay sex is always sinful (which is not to say that it is the Uber-sin). If we don’t believe that, we chart our own course and take our lumps - just like on any other issue.

That’s a very interesting assessment. Being gay and being…ahem…middle aged, I’ve lived longer in a world where #2 was the prevalent view. I have peers who were completely rejected by their families, that were sent to mental institutions, sent to “conversion camps”, were attacked and beaten because of their orientation and who attempted suicide because of their orientation and one who actually did kill himself. Then of course there were the “little” things, the bullying, the emotional abuse, and the lingering doubt in your mind if that promotion you didn’t get, the apartment that was suddenly taken or the layoff list you got on had something to do with your orientation.

I have to admit, if I had my druthers, gay and straight people would all have the same civil rights and there would be no reason whatsoever to “come out”. People who feel that gay behavior is immoral will still be free to believe that, but gay people will no longer be the targets of hatred, bullying, discrimination and violence.

However, until the number of people who follow the philosophy of #2 is significantly reduced, the number of people who follow the philosophy of #1 will likely continue to be loud.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

That’s a very interesting assessment. Being gay and being…ahem…middle aged, I’ve lived longer in a world where #2 was the prevalent view. I have peers who were completely rejected by their families, that were sent to mental institutions, sent to “conversion camps”, were attacked and beaten because of their orientation and who attempted suicide because of their orientation and one who actually did kill himself. Then of course there were the “little” things, the bullying, the emotional abuse, and the lingering doubt in your mind if that promotion you didn’t get, the apartment that was suddenly taken or the layoff list you got on had something to do with your orientation.

I have to admit, if I had my druthers, gay and straight people would all have the same civil rights and there would be no reason whatsoever to “come out”. People who feel that gay behavior is immoral will still be free to believe that, but gay people will no longer be the targets of hatred, bullying, discrimination and violence.

However, until the number of people who follow the philosophy of #2 is significantly reduced, the number of people who follow the philosophy of #1 will likely continue to be loud.

:: Hugs:: Sorry to hear you have had to live through all that. As a bisexual, I have moments when I think I have it rough listening to people at the coffee hour after Mass say things like “I wish all the gays would convert, get married to people of the opposite sex and have kids” or “Homosexuality is a disease that needs to be cured even more than cancer”. Then I hear about how worse things used to be for folks like us and I find myself humbled.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

:: Hugs:: Sorry to hear you have had to live through all that. As a bisexual, I have moments when I think I have it rough listening to people at the coffee hour after Mass say things like “I wish all the gays would convert, get married to people of the opposite sex and have kids” or “Homosexuality is a disease that needs to be cured even more than cancer”. Then I hear about how worse things used to be for folks like us and I find myself humbled.

I think in most cases those folks really don’t understand how that sounds to a gay person. I would like to think that my straight Catholic friends don’t really intend to be hurtful.

However, there are still people who really do feel that gay people are inferior, evil and “deserve what they get” in cases of violence.

If the straight folks would like us all to shut up and sit down, then fight WITH us for equal rights and the end of violence and discrimination against LGBT people.

 

[j1akey]

If the church changes its stance on the GLBT community then it’s lost a part of its control on the flock when it comes to telling people what to think. Many people might even leave the church and therefore there is less money coming in. It’s really nothing more than discrimination for financial purposes. The catholic church is nothing but a big organization looking to protect its own interests just like any other corporation out there.

There, I said it. Conspiracy theory posted.

 

[Newbie2]

That’s a very interesting assessment. Being gay and being…ahem…middle aged, I’ve lived longer in a world where #2 was the prevalent view. I have peers who were completely rejected by their families, that were sent to mental institutions, sent to “conversion camps”, were attacked and beaten because of their orientation and who attempted suicide because of their orientation and one who actually did kill himself. Then of course there were the “little” things, the bullying, the emotional abuse, and the lingering doubt in your mind if that promotion you didn’t get, the apartment that was suddenly taken or the layoff list you got on had something to do with your orientation.

I have to admit, if I had my druthers, gay and straight people would all have the same civil rights and there would be no reason whatsoever to “come out”. People who feel that gay behavior is immoral will still be free to believe that, but gay people will no longer be the targets of hatred, bullying, discrimination and violence.

However, until the number of people who follow the philosophy of #2 is significantly reduced, the number of people who follow the philosophy of #1 will likely continue to be loud.

We/they don’t?

If the church changes its stance on the GLBT community then it’s lost a part of its control on the flock when it comes to telling people what to think. Many people might even leave the church and therefore there is less money coming in. It’s really nothing more than discrimination for financial purposes. The catholic church is nothing but a big organization looking to protect its own interests just like any other corporation out there.

There, I said it. Conspiracy theory posted.

Nice. But what about the cash that would roll in if homosexuals were celebrated in the RCC? After all, the radical homosexual advocates tell us in the business world that LGBT clients have oodles of dollars to spend and that we should cater to them (a curious thought, methinks, as how one treats a “gay” customer differently than a “straight” customer).

 

[mkingdomlvr]

We/they don’t?

Nice. But what about the cash that would roll in if homosexuals were celebrated in the RCC? After all, the radical homosexual advocates tell us in the business world that LGBT clients have oodles of dollars to spend and that we should cater to them (a curious thought, methinks, as how one treats a “gay” customer differently than a “straight” customer).

Spoken like a member of the majority. You and a same sex friend try and experiment sometime-go out for a day and run errands or hang out in town holding hands. See what kind of reception you get from your fellow citizens and shop owners. The reason the HRC talks about businesses embracing gay customers is because of negative treatment gay people have received out in the world.

I can tell you that Orlando has learned about the willingness of gay people to spend when they feel welcome. We are desperately down in tourism, EXCEPT for gay days in June. My friends at the hotels and theme parks said bookings and crowds were no different than last year for that weekend, even bigger for some places.

and as far as the Church, we’re not even treated equally when it comes to sin. The only sin that gets Catholics more rabid than abortion is homosexuality. Good grief, there are people right here on this board who praised a murderer because he killed an abortion MD. Even someone who kills another person in cold blood is better than a gay!!!

 

[Newbie2]

Spoken like a member of the majority. You and a same sex friend try and experiment sometime-go out for a day and run errands or hang out in town holding hands. See what kind of reception you get from your fellow citizens and shop owners. The reason the HRC talks about businesses embracing gay customers is because of negative treatment gay people have received out in the world.

I can tell you that Orlando has learned about the willingness of gay people to spend when they feel welcome. We are desperately down in tourism, EXCEPT for gay days in June. My friends at the hotels and theme parks said bookings and crowds were no different than last year for that weekend, even bigger for some places.

and as far as the Church, we’re not even treated equally when it comes to sin. The only sin that gets Catholics more rabid than abortion is homosexuality. Good grief, there are people right here on this board who praised a murderer because he killed an abortion MD. Even someone who kills another person in cold blood is better than a gay!!!

Hmmmm…most of my heterosexual clients, married or not, do not hold hands at our clinic. I see very few heterosexual couples, married or not, holding hands nowadays. In any case, most businesses don’t give a rat’s butt who’s spending money as long as it’s spent with them. Yes, obviously there are exceptions. But these for the most part are not good businesspeople.

In any case, this has nothing to do with civil rights. Gay persons can patronize or not patronize businesses as they see fit, as you eluded to.

As far as the RCC is concerned, you have made the error of painting with too broad a brush. Yes, many Catholics consider homosexuality to be one of the “top sins”, probably because it’s more “visible” and perhaps “public” than other sins. But that is not the teaching of the Church.

“Good grief, there are people right here on this board who praised a murderer because he killed an abortion MD. Even someone who kills another person in cold blood is better than a gay!” Who wrote that? Evidence, please.

 

[distracted]

Is being gay a sin? or is it just the act of it??? What i think is that being gay is not a sin, since it is biological. But, I do think it’s a sin if they act on it. But, than what should those peopl e who are gay do?? marry a woman, even though they are attracted to men? That must be really difficult!! Any thoughts on this ??

when i was a lot younger, i met someone who said she was gay. … just wasn’t attracted to men.

then she got married and had some children… now she says the thought of being with a woman, sexually, is disgusting…

so much for being born gay…

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Hmmmm…most of my heterosexual clients, married or not, do not hold hands at our clinic. I see very few heterosexual couples, married or not, holding hands nowadays. In any case, most businesses don’t give a rat’s butt who’s spending money as long as it’s spent with them. Yes, obviously there are exceptions. But these for the most part are not good businesspeople.

In any case, this has nothing to do with civil rights. Gay persons can patronize or not patronize businesses as they see fit, as you eluded to.

As far as the RCC is concerned, you have made the error of painting with too broad a brush. Yes, many Catholics consider homosexuality to be one of the “top sins”, probably because it’s more “visible” and perhaps “public” than other sins. But that is not the teaching of the Church.

“Good grief, there are people right here on this board who praised a murderer because he killed an abortion MD. Even someone who kills another person in cold blood is better than a gay!” Who wrote that? Evidence, please.

Go read through the Dr Tiller threads and look at the language used to describe Roeder. Then take a look at the threads on gays, and look at how gay people are described-miserable, disordered, maladjusted, perverted, deviant…etc. You won’t see ANY of those terms used to describe a murderer. You’ll see, “yes, he did a bad thing BUT he was a hero to so many babies who will now be born!!”

You claim in your first paragraph that you do not see gay people holding hands in public, then you say that Catholics view homosexuality as more sinful because it’s more “visible” and “public” than other sins. Well, which is it?

My theory is that the higher homosexuality is on a person’s “sin” scale, the fewer actual homosexuals they know. It’s not that it’s public, it’s that the image many people have of homosexuals is the TV news coverage of the gay pride parade and that’s who they think all gay people are.

 

[distracted]

“Good grief, there are people right here on this board who praised a murderer because he killed an abortion MD. Even someone who kills another person in cold blood is better than a gay!” Who wrote that? Evidence, please.

well, something about this sounds vaguely familiar so i will say this:

Roeder was guilty of taking the laws of capital punishment enforcement into his own hands…

not murder…

murder is defined as the intentional killing of an innocent person. If you think Tiller was innocent…

 

[mkingdomlvr]

when i was a lot younger, i met someone who said she was gay. … just wasn’t attracted to men.

then she got married and had some children… now she says the thought of being with a woman, sexually, is disgusting…

so much for being born gay…

WOW! So you know ONE person who thought she was gay and wasn’t! Well, that solves it then, nobody is born gay.

FTR, just because I’m not attracted to men doesn’t mean that I find heterosexual sex disgusting, it’s just not for me. In your case, it sounds more like she’s in denial and trying really, really hard to be straight so that she doesn’t get condemned by those loving religious folks who think gay people are evil.