Gen 3:15

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myfavoritmartin

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Why does the D/R translate this different than all the others?
bible.cc/genesis/3-15.htm

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I will make you and the woman hostile toward each other. I will make your descendants and her descendant hostile toward each other. He will crush your head, and you will bruise his heel."
King James Bible
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
American King James Version
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
American Standard Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Bible in Basic English
And there will be war between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed: by him will your head be crushed and by you his foot will be wounded.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: **she shall **crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Darby Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt crush his heel.
English Revised Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Webster’s Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
World English Bible
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel."
Young’s Literal Translation
and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee – the head, and thou dost bruise him – the heel.’
 
You forgot an important translation: Ronald Knox, who also translates from the Vulgate, just as the Douay-Rheims:
And I will establish a feud between thee and the woman, between thy offspring and hers; she is to crush thy head, while thou dost lie in wait at her heels.
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Knox’s note on this verse:
For ‘she’ and ‘her’ the Septuagint Greek has ‘he’ and ‘him’; The Hebrew text also, as it has come down to us, gives ‘he’ or perhaps ‘it’. But most manuscripts of the Latin version have ‘she’, which plainly gives a better balance to the sentence. That the reference of this passage, in any case, is the Incarnation, is the general opinion of the Fathers. The Latin here assumes that there is a play upon words in the original, since there are two Hebrew verbs closely alike, one of which means ‘to crush’, and the other ‘to follow eagerly’. But the Hebrew text has ‘to crush’ in both clauses; The Septuagint Greek, in both clauses has ‘to lie in wait.’
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Ronald Knox throws some little doubt on the Hebrew text “as it has come down to us.” But even in the original DR notes, there is much ado about ipsum conteret versus ipsa and similar to Msgr. Knox, has the Incarnation in mind in any event. However, that is not to say that the Early Church Fathers did not use this expression to refer to the Blessed Virgin, and that is why we have so many images and statues of the BVM standing on the serpent. This is always a direct reference to Gen. 3:15. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Recall that the BVM is the Theotokos, so can not be separated from the Incarnation. The seed within the BVM is the seed of Gen. 3:15:)
 
It depended upon whether one used a Hebrew source or the Greek Septuagint. The Greek does not grammatically indicate which gender - it would rest on the translator’s interpretation. I believe St. Jerome used the Septuagint as his source.

The Hebrew does indicate gender, and existing copies predominantly indicate the masculine. Altho, according to this footnote from the Geo. Haydock bible, there was at least one Hebrew copy that carried the feminine. Don’t know if it is still in existence.
haydock1859.tripod.com/id329.html
Ver. 15. She shall crush. Ipsa, the woman: so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz. the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head. (Challoner) — The Hebrew text, as Bellarmine observes, is ambiguous: He mentions one copy which had ipsa instead of ipsum; and so it is even printed in the Hebrew interlineary edition, 1572, by Plantin, under the inspection of Boderianus. Whether the Jewish editions ought to have more weight with Christians, or whether all the other manuscripts conspire against this reading, let others inquire. The fathers who have cited the old Italic version, taken from the Septuagint agree with the Vulgate, which is followed by almost all the Latins; and hence we may argue with probability, that the Septuagint and the Hebrew formerly acknowledged ipsa, …

St. Jerome chose to translate it with the Latin feminine “ipsa” in the Vulgate. The Douay Rheims is an English translation of the Latin Vulgate.

I can certainly see the reason one might choose to give it a feminine ending since the enmity is said specifically to be between the woman and the serpent - Gen 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, …”
 
*For ‘she’ and ‘her’ the **Septuagint Greek has ‘he’ and **‘him’; The Hebrew text also, as it has come down to us, gives ‘he’ or perhaps ‘it’. But most manuscripts of the Latin version have ‘she’, which plainly gives a better balance to the sentence. That the reference of this passage, in any case, is the Incarnation, is the general opinion of the Fathers. The Latin here assumes that there is a play upon words in the original, since there are two Hebrew verbs closely alike, one of which means ‘to crush’, and the other ‘to follow eagerly’. But the Hebrew text has ‘to crush’ in both clauses; The Septuagint Greek, in both clauses has ‘to lie in wait.’ *

***If I am understanding this correct when the latin translation was done they changed it from the male to the female cuz it gave better balance??? ***
EEgads!!! must have not read any of the warnings about adding or taking away from sacred scripture.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
*For ‘she’ and ‘her’ the **Septuagint Greek has ‘he’ and ***‘him’; The Hebrew text also, as it has come down to us, gives ‘he’ or perhaps ‘it’. But most manuscripts of the Latin version have ‘she’, which plainly gives a better balance to the sentence. That the reference of this passage, in any case, is the Incarnation, is the general opinion of the Fathers. The Latin here assumes that there is a play upon words in the original, since there are two Hebrew verbs closely alike, one of which means ‘to crush’, and the other ‘to follow eagerly’. But the Hebrew text has ‘to crush’ in both clauses; The Septuagint Greek, in both clauses has ‘to lie in wait.’

***If I am understanding this correct when the latin translation was done they changed it from the male to the female cuz it gave better balance??? ***
EEgads!!! must have not read any of the warnings about adding or taking away from sacred scripture.
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WHOA, whoa, whoa… Didn’t you read Nita’s quote from Haydock? That’s your answer.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
WHOA, whoa, whoa… Didn’t you read Nita’s quote from Haydock? That’s your answer.
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here is what I saw…
**St. Jerome chose **to translate it with the Latin feminine “ipsa” in the Vulgate.
 
A woman did NOT defeat satan…It makes no sense this translation.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
here is what I saw…
**St. Jerome chose **to translate it with the Latin feminine “ipsa” in the Vulgate.
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Don’t forget, St. Jerome went back to the Hebrew translation in developing the Latin Vulgate. He could probably care less what the Septuagint said.

This is what I got out of a Bible Study on Genesis (AgapeBibleStudy.Com)
Code: 
It will be these men and woman who will stand in opposition to the “*seed of the Serpent/Satan*,” the men and woman who oppose the will of God.  But the “*seed*” of the woman can also be understood to refer to one individual who will battle Satan.  In the Hebrew phrase ***it will bruise your head and you will strike its heel***, the pronouns are in the singular and not in the plural, and the pronoun “*it*” can be translated “*he, she, or it*.”  In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (c. 250 BC), known as the Septuagint, the pronoun “*it*” was translated as the masculine pronoun “*he*.”  The Hebrew scholars who translated this Hebrew text into Greek in the 3rd century BC acknowledged that this passage offered the first promise of a future Redeemer who will be wounded in His struggle with the Serpent: *you will strike its heel, *a Semiticism for “*do violence to, or to wound*,” but the promised Redeemer will crush the head of the Serpent: *it [he] will bruise [crush] your head*; a Semiticism for “*to strike a mortal wound.*”The words “*bruise*” and “*strike*” in the New Jerusalem translation are the same two words in the Hebrew text.[](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#_ftn1)
**Question: **What title have the Fathers of the Church given Genesis 3:15 and why? Why did they call the Virgin Mary the “new Eve”? See CCC 410-411.
**Answer: **The Church Fathers called Genesis 3:15 the *Protoevangelium, *“the first Gospel/ Good news.” Genesis 3:15 is the first promise of the coming of the Messiah-Redeemer, born from a woman chosen by God. The Doctors and Fathers of the Church have always identified this woman as the Virgin Mary, who in her perfect obedience to the will of God untied the knot of disobedience of the virgin Eve—the Virgin Mary is the “new Eve:” *As Eve was seduced by the word of a [fallen] angel to flee from God, having rebelled against his word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his word. The former was seduced to disobey God [and so fell], but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through the act of a virgin, so was it saved by a virgin, and thus the disobedience of one virgin was precisely balanced by the obedience of another *(St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.19.1). Genesis 3:15 is the proof that God was not willing to abandon mankind to the rule of sin and death.
Code: 
    [](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#_ftnref1) #7779, *shuf/ shuph, a prime root, to overwhelm, break, bruise, crush, cover; Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon, *page 1003; *Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon* page 139.
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NotWorthy said:
Don’t forget, St. Jerome went back to the Hebrew translation in developing the Latin Vulgate. He could probably care less what the Septuagint said.

This is what I got out of a Bible Study on Genesis (AgapeBibleStudy.Com)
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Hi friend…Wouldn’t you consider Gen 3:15 a protoevangelon of the gospel?
i find this very odd, to place a she in the spot of our Savior…Don’t you?
 
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis3.htm

3 [15] He will strike . . . at his heel: since the antecedent for he and his is the collective noun offspring, i.e., all the descendants of the woman, a more exact rendering of the sacred writer’s words would be, “They will strike . . . at their heels.” However, later theology saw in this passage more than unending hostility between snakes and men. The serpent was regarded as the devil (Wisdom 2:24; John 8:44; Rev 12:9; 20:2), whose eventual defeat seems implied in the contrast between head and heel. Because “the Son of God appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8), the passage can be understood as the first promise of a Redeemer for fallen mankind. The woman’s offspring then is primarily Jesus Christ.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Why does the D/R translate this different than all the others?
bible.cc/genesis/3-15.htm

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I will make you and the woman hostile toward each other. I will make your descendants and her descendant hostile toward each other. He will crush your head, and you will bruise his heel."
King James Bible
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
American King James Version
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
American Standard Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Bible in Basic English
And there will be war between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed: by him will your head be crushed and by you his foot will be wounded.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: **she shall **crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Darby Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt crush his heel.
English Revised Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Webster’s Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
World English Bible
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel."
Young’s Literal Translation
and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee – the head, and thou dost bruise him – the heel.’
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How about listing some real Bible’s around here, Catholic Bible’s. All Bibles you quote from are not Catholic. Nor do I accept them as being “true Bibles” either.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Hi friend…Wouldn’t you consider Gen 3:15 a protoevangelon of the gospel?
i find this very odd, to place a she in the spot of our Savior…Don’t you?
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Well… since I don’t spend too much time reading the D/R…

But of course, the whole Church calls this the ProtoEvangelium! Who do you think coined the phrase?!? 😉
 
tobinatorstark said:
How about listing some real Bible’s around here, Catholic Bible’s. All Bibles you quote from are not Catholic. Nor do I accept them as being “true Bibles” either.
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See the post right above you…here it is again, with the usbishops commentary

3 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis3.htm
 
myfavoritmartin said:
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis3.htm

3 [15] He will strike . . . at his heel: since the antecedent for he and his is the collective noun offspring, i.e., all the descendants of the woman, a more exact rendering of the sacred writer’s words would be, “They will strike . . . at their heels.” However, later theology saw in this passage more than unending hostility between snakes and men. The serpent was regarded as the devil (Wisdom 2:24; John 8:44; Rev 12:9; 20:2), whose eventual defeat seems implied in the contrast between head and heel. Because “the Son of God appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8), the passage can be understood as the first promise of a Redeemer for fallen mankind. The woman’s offspring then is primarily Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
The problem is that the pronouns you are using as “They” and “their” are actually singular pronouns in the original Hebrew.

The unending hostility between snakes and men is a false theory.
 
NotWorthy said:
The problem is that the pronouns you are using as “They” and “their” are actually singular pronouns in the original Hebrew.

The unending hostility between snakes and men is a false theory.
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Not me…thats the link from the us council of catholic bishops in the NAB which itself is at odds with the DR
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Not me…thats the link from the us council of catholic bishops in the NAB which itself is at odds with the DR
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The commentary on the NAB is odds with almost everyone!!! :sad_yes: I sometimes wonder if it came from Protestants! :eek:
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Not me…thats the link from the us council of catholic bishops in the NAB which itself is at odds with the DR
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In the Hebrew phrase it will bruise your head and you will strike its heel, the pronouns are in the singular and not in the plural, and the pronoun “it” can be translated “he, she, or it.” Again, from AgapeBibleStudy.Com
 
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