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myfavoritmartin
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really? assumption?
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NotWorthy
Guest
Yes. But to play along, what does the Dogma of the Assumption have to do with Genesis 3:15?
Did you ever hear of any Church that claimed to have the bones of Mary? Or any 100 churches?
Could you name any other Apostolic Age saint that this “absence of bones” occurred?
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myfavoritmartin
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it is just another thing that lends to the developing of a deistic identity.Yes. But to play along, what does the Dogma of the Assumption have to do with Genesis 3:15?
Did you ever hear of any Church that claimed to have the bones of Mary? Or any 100 churches?
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Jehuty_X
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// what part of the douai-rheims is a direct translation of the latin vulgate you do not understand???
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AmbroseSJ
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The only thing to remember is that it is NOT a mistake, it is the rendering that is found in the Vulgate. The issue is very cloudy and not the least bit definite, as we don’t have Jerome’s original Vulgate, or the original documents that were used to translate into the Vulgate. The rendering is positively defensible. The ambiguity of the original text allowed a certain latitude. Over a dozen centuries of acceptance can not and should not be tossed overboard because in today’s atmosphere of “textual criticism.” everything is once again up for grabs.
Ronald Knox in his commentary says “If we would be TRUE to the principles of criticism, we must read the gospels not in vacuo, but against a background of Christian tradition which is older than themselves, and would have survived, in however distorted a form, if they had perished.”
Although he says this regarding the Gospels, it can be applied just as well to the Old Testament. The Christian Old Testament does not agree well with the Jewish Scriptures, subject as they were to the Anti-Christian bias after the destruction of the Second Temple. So in truth, no one can say positively what is correct unless they can produce the original documents, which no one has. In the meantime, Catholics look at Scripture against a background of tradition which has ever existed.
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NotWorthy
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I wasn’t aware that Mary was a deity. I’ve always been taught that there is One God (in Three Persons… none of which is Mary!).
I’ll grant that there were a few times that I may have fallen asleep in Mass and in Sunday School, but I’m rather confident that the Church has never taught that Mary was a deity.
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NotWorthy
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Which is why I’m not too bothered about it. :yawn:In the meantime, Catholics look at Scripture against a background of tradition which has ever existed.
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myfavoritmartin
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Hey bro you say it didn’t create or change any doctrines, but why is then that in nearly every diocese in the world you could likely find a statue of Mary crushing the serpent? when as we discussed and agreed it is/was Jesus who was victorious?
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myfavoritmartin
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Your reading into my words, never said she was deity…
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NotWorthy
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I"m sorry. But when you said
I assumed you meant she’s treated as a deity.
My Bad.
BTW, how are floods going? Will the dikes hold up the rest of the week? Thanks for all the help you are providing those good folks, brother!
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AmbroseSJ
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The statues shown stepping on the serpent is definitely due to the Vulgate’s rendering of Gen 3: 15. This does not diminish the fact that the Incarnation of the Word is in fact being referenced. This prophecy would find fulfillment in the Virgin’s fiat, when the Word was made Flesh. You simply cannot separate the Incarnation from the Virgin. So likewise, there is no error with showing the Virgin stepping on the serpent. When you consider that the early Church Fathers often wrote of the Virgin as the New Eve, the rendering of Gen. 3:15 and the statue showing the Virgin stepping on the serpent is entirely consistent, and Scriptural.
That today’s scientifically oriented Scripture scholars shy away from that reading has more to do with modern exactness of translation, and neglect of tradition. Yet tradition is not another word for inaccurate or erroneous. It is still accurate, but at this point in time, can not be substantiated scientifically with original documents. There is still ample reason to believe, as has already been pointed out in this thread, that there was in fact a basis for this ancient reading as given in the Vulgate. Today’s texts are not more ancient, and have many of their own accretions, which may be erroneous, or misleading at the least. There is no final word scientifically. Traditionally there is no need for worry, as it does not change the nature of the prophecy or by whom it is fulfilled.
The message of the statues is that this is the Virgin, carrying the Incarnation, which is the fulfillment of Gen. 3:15
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myfavoritmartin
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Well its been holding up so far, within the city limits only limited houses have been given over to flood waters. I was absolutely thrown aback by the width of ground this affected, at one point we were driving on an interstate 10-15 west of the Red and I looked over at my wife and said J see that highway going south? thats our way home…it was submerged! she had a look of terror on her face, we made it back going another wayI"m sorry. But when you said
I assumed you meant she’s treated as a deity.
My Bad.
BTW, how are floods going? Will the dikes hold up the rest of the week? Thanks for all the help you are providing those good folks, brother!
. taking part in something like the volunteer stuff and seeing each other people stepping up for a friend or neighbor really restored a hope in me for our country i haven’t felt in some time.And wow what a community of hope!
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NotWorthy
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Amen to that! My area is experiencing that same rejuvenation of hope, both in the Catholic community as well as the whole community. The scene you described reminds me of a couple of floods that have happened in my area (one in Houston and one in Beaumont) in recent years. The Houston flood, you may recall, was famous for all the 18 wheelers that were found floating up and down the freeways, like flotsam in a river.Well its been holding up so far, within the city limits only limited houses have been given over to flood waters. I was absolutely thrown aback by the width of ground this affected, at one point we were driving on an interstate 10-15 west of the Red and I looked over at my wife and said J see that highway going south? thats our way home…it was submerged! she had a look of terror on her face, we made it back going another way
And wow what a community of hope!
It is truly incredible and once again reminds me that we are not in charge.
Once again, God bless you and your wife (and all the other volunteers) for the work you are doing for our brothers and sisters up north!
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