Gender Changed Individual

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Corki said:
Gender “reassignment” surgery is gravely wrong. It could be mortally sinful if the other conditions (knowledge and consent) are met. The exception would be someone who is genetically one gender but physically another. That person could morally have surgery to repair the physical mismatch (for lack of a better term).
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Today with better understanding, we wouldn’t say that “cutting” or bulimia or suicide is gravely wrong. Rather, we would try to help the individual so that they stop cutting (or otherwise hurting themselves). Gender reassignment surgery is the same. With deep psychological, emotional and spiritual issues involved, I don’t think anyone who mutilates themselves is “sinning” but deeply disturbed and in need of intervention. The problem is how deep their problem runs, which reflects on their willingness to accept help.
 
Corki said:
I believe they are rarer now than they used to be. Before DNA testing was the norm, a child whose physical appearance was ambiguous at birth would get surgery as an infant to assign one or the other gender - physically. When they grew up, they would sometimes find out (with DNA testing) that the doctors erred in choosing the correct gender. In modern times, I surely hope doctors would not do this without definitive DNA testing.
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Oh, I see. You’re reffering to situations where the wrong surgery already took place, so a corrective surgery is needed to reverse the original mistake. Is that right?
 
Rence said:
Today with better understanding, we wouldn’t say that “cutting” or bulimia or suicide is gravely wrong. Rather, we would try to help the individual so that they stop cutting (or otherwise hurting themselves). Gender reassignment surgery is the same. With deep psychological, emotional and spiritual issues involved, I don’t think anyone who mutilates themselves is “sinning” but deeply disturbed and in need of intervention. The problem is how deep their problem runs, which reflects on their willingness to accept help.
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From a Church standpoint, we would certainly call all of those actions gravely wrong. Bulimia is a medial condition. Medical conditions are not “right” or “wrong”. Binging and purging is gravely wrong. The sinfulness and the culpability are going to vary depending on the usual conditions (knowledge, consent). Offering help does not mean that the action is not wrong. Cutting is an example. Some people cut out of psychological distress. Others cut to make “cool” scars. Both are gravely wrong but only the latter is likely to be sinful.
 
ricofall said:
cosmetic surgery
n.
Surgery that modifies or improves the appearance of a physical feature, irregularity, or defect -Cosmetic surgery | definition of cosmetic surgery by Medical dictionary

If the person thinks deeply that they have a defect and removing their testicles would solve a problem, than they fit that definition.
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The fact that a person is mentally ill doesn’t mean that a normal, healthy body part is a defect. If they thought their arms were ugly, is it “cosmetic” to remove them?
 
aemcpa said:
The fact that a person is mentally ill doesn’t mean that a normal, healthy body part is a defect. If they thought their arms were ugly, is it “cosmetic” to remove them?
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Well, its called Apotemnophilia.
 
What I want to know is, how did the OP “teach” his boys to react? Did they privately tell him that the friend made them uncomfortable, or did they refuse to use female pronouns, or did they tell the friend “God disapproves of your lifestyle!”

I’m guessing it was some variation of the first option, but I can’t really tell from the post.

Slight change of subject- when dealing with those who have gone through sex reassignment surgery (I think that’s what they’re calling it now? >.>), should we use the person’s preferred pronouns or their “actual” pronouns? I’d probably either avoid pronouns or use the person’s preferred pronouns, but I’m not sure that’s the right response. 🤷
 
I think you deserve an A+ in how you explained to your children. Great job.
 
The answer, even officially in the Church, is not as cut-and-dried. Transsexualism is a serious psychological disorder. People who have this truly suffer. The Church did produce an internal document on the matter some years ago and I believe it mentioned that in some limited circumstances, gender-reassignment surgery may be moral if it alleviates the person’s suffering, even though in the Church’s view that person remains, in canon law, their original gender and cannot marry, become priests, have their baptismal certificate changed etc.

A transgendered person who had such surgery to alleviate suffering, is still called to live a chaste lifestyle and if indeed that person does lead a chaste lifestyle, (s)he is not sinning.

The Church is wise to tread carefully here because there may very well be some yet undiscovered physical reason for this disorder (for example hormone levels in utero, brain wiring, or whatever).

Either way the only correct way to treat someone with this disorder is with compassion. We shouldn’t condemn a transgendered person or even tell them “I love you the person but hate your sin” (which IMHO is no different than judging them) unless we can walk a mile in their shoes.

So if you come across a transgendered person, just accept them as they are and as they present themselves and treat them with the same courtesy you’d treat anyone else.
 
Kamaduck said:
Slight change of subject- when dealing with those who have gone through sex reassignment surgery (I think that’s what they’re calling it now? >.>), should we use the person’s preferred pronouns or their “actual” pronouns? I’d probably either avoid pronouns or use the person’s preferred pronouns, but I’m not sure that’s the right response. 🤷
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I doubt there is a “rule” about this. I would tend toward not using pronouns at all. On the one hand, I couldn’t bring myself to refer to a man as “she” or a woman as “he”. I would just be dishonest. On the other hand, since I believe that most of these individuals have suffered psychological distress leading to this event, it would be uncharitable to refer to their actual gender against their wishes and possibly cause more distress.
 
Gender “reassignment” surgery is gravely wrong. It could be mortally sinful if the other conditions (knowledge and consent) are met. The exception would be someone who is genetically one gender but physically another. That person could morally have surgery to repair the physical mismatch (for lack of a better term).
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Gender is more of a mental thing, sex is genetic. But it gets weird when we have XXY people and other chromosomal abnormalities.
It’s not straightforward. I think such people should get counselling and help and if they are they other gender then why not live as that gender? Their innate sexuality is at odds with their physical appearance. Just as we don’t say that a leper is ‘bad on the inside’ for being ill on the outside I don’t see why we can presume to be able to tell these others what is wrong in this respect.
The surgery itself would fall under the sin of mutilation.
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but circumscision and breast implants are ok? :confused: ?
 
Spyral said:
Gender is more of a mental thing, sex is genetic. But it gets weird when we have XXY people and other chromosomal abnormalities.
It’s not straightforward. I think such people should get counselling and help and if they are they other gender then why not live as that gender? Their innate sexuality is at odds with their physical appearance. Just as we don’t say that a leper is ‘bad on the inside’ for being ill on the outside I don’t see why we can presume to be able to tell these others what is wrong in this respect.

but circumscision and breast implants are ok? :confused: ?
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People with XXY chromosomes are male, FYI, but there are more tricky disorders like PAIS.

I expect the difference is that circumcision and breast implants don’t cause the body to lose functionality. (Unless they do? I’ve honestly never read much about breast augmentation surgery…)
 
anrmenchaca47 said:
OK…I dont know how to approach this. I would like to think that I did a good job here but still I don’t know how to react.

My wife recently met up with a friend of hers whom she adores because he/she has been a very kind individual. Well, this person used to be a man and has made the change to being a woman. My children were introduced to this person and both my boys reacted the way I taught them. They viewed it as wrong and that is not what God likes.

Now…I have learned that we cannot and must not judge and that all we can do is pray for that individual and this is what I explained to my boys that even though as catholics we do not agree and condone their lifestyle, this does not mean we should hate or judge. We must also show charity.

Is this the right way to approach it?
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First there are persons born who have the exterior genitalia of a male but the chromosomes of a woman. In the past, this person was raised as a male, now we allow these children to grow up and make a decision. You really do not know the whole story here as it is possible the person was actually one with female chromosomes and, in this this case, the church would advise the required operations to make the person human. You say you do not approve of the lifestyle - this connotation assumes you think the person is living a sinful lifestyle but from what you wrote…this is an opinion and not based on fact. What exactly is this person’s lifestyle? Seems like everything written was judgemental when you really do not know much about the situation, at least, not enough to make a judgement.
 
Jessie5000 said:
First there are persons born who have the exterior genitalia of a male but the chromosomes of a woman. In the past, this person was raised as a male, now we allow these children to grow up and make a decision. You really do not know the whole story here as it is possible the person was actually one with female chromosomes and, in this this case, the church would advise the required operations to make the person human. You say you do not know the lifestyle - this connotation assumes you think the person is living a sinful lifestyle but from what you wrote…this is an opinion and not based on fact. What exactly is this person’s lifestyle? Seems like everything written was judgemental when you really do not know much about the situation, at least not enough to make a judgement.
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While your overall point makes sense, the bolded turn of phrase sounds terrible. People are still going to be human, regardless of what gender they are or whether it matches the sex they appear to be.
 
Bonnie said:
2 questions:

1 - How did you know this person used to be a man? Does he/she (I also have trouble with the pronoun) announce, “Hi, I’m Jane - I used to be Jack?”
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My wife has been a friend since she was a small girl and he was a boy.
Bonnie said:
2 - The way you worded the reaction of your sons, “My children were introduced to this person and both my boys reacted the way I taught them” sounds odd to me. Were your sons polite? I hope they weren’t rude to the person - that gives a bad impression of the Church.

I have a young relative who is undergoing a sex change. I liked him just fine when he was male - I haven’t seen him since he became (in appearance) female. I might this summer - I hope I handle it the right way.
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My boys didn’t react rudely nor did they do it in front of that person…they only reacted that way privately with my wife as they were returning from the store.
 
Jessie5000 said:
First there are persons born who have the exterior genitalia of a male but the chromosomes of a woman. In the past, this person was raised as a male, now we allow these children to grow up and make a decision. You really do not know the whole story here as it is possible the person was actually one with female chromosomes and, in this this case,** the church would advise the required operations to make the person human.** You say you do not approve of the lifestyle - this connotation assumes you think the person is living a sinful lifestyle but from what you wrote…this is an opinion and not based on fact. What exactly is this person’s lifestyle? Seems like everything written was judgemental when you really do not know much about the situation, at least, not enough to make a judgement.
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I’m sorry but coud you tell me where in the CCC does it say that the underlined is justified? I must have missed it…

Lifestyle?..My wife is a really close friend of this person and has been for more than 20+ years and she knows quite alot which I will not delve on this forum.
 
anrmenchaca47 said:
I’m sorry but coud you tell me where in the CCC does it say that the underlined is justified? I must have missed it…

Lifestyle?..My wife is a really close friend of this person and has been for more than 20+ years and she knows quite alot which I will not delve on this forum.
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For now the Church has not publicly pronounced on this issue AFAIK. But internally I believe it is discussed and a document was produced. It’s a complicated subject and the science is not 100% clear on the subject so the Church is wise to not jump the gun without fully studying the problem.
 
anrmenchaca47 said:
I’m sorry but coud you tell me where in the CCC does it say that the underlined is justified? I must have missed it…

Lifestyle?..My wife is a really close friend of this person and has been for more than 20+ years and she knows quite alot which I will not delve on this forum.
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So, in other words, you weren’t really looking for advice on CAF – just trolling for a reaction so you could throw out “where in the CCC”? :rolleyes:
 
anrmenchaca47 said:
I’m sorry but coud you tell me where in the CCC does it say that the underlined is justified? I must have missed it…
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The CCC isn’t a medical textbook; it doesn’t mention intersex people. Intersex people are in a different situation than trans* individuals, and it’s not morally wrong for an intersex person to have corrective surgery. That’s not based on a specific ruling by the Church, but on the fact that it’s OK to have surgery to correct deformities (which is what intersex people have).

However, an intersex person cannot change his or her gender. Nobody can; gender is innate to each individual. Very few people, even trans* people, dispute this. In the case of an intersex person, the surgery is to make the outward appearance agree with the genetics.

In the case of a trans* individual, surgery is to make the outward appearance agree with who the person feels they are. The Church hasn’t officially said anything about them, as far as I know. Science hasn’t told us yet whether their claims have any basis in reality.
 
It is always correct to be kind and compassionate while understanding that your primary responsibility is to your kids. They need to know the Catholic position on this (kindness but not approval). If your kids should happen to feel uneasy around this friend than you must respect that and limit contact.
 
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