Gender Differences

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To get to the point, my question is: what is the Church’s position on differences between the genders? I am not speaking only about gender rights, especially not in the sense of some inherent entitlement as modern people speak of it. I am specifically asking about the mental and physical differences and what they mean for social roles for the genders. Traditionally, different attributes were assigned and different roles given for men and women. Men were considered strong, brave, protective, giving, intellectual, faithful; women were considered compassionate, kind, loving, gentle, motherly, charitable, wise, devout. Men were the soldiers, the businessmen, the professionals, while women were the mothers, the wives, and workers in smaller businesses and more personal, social roles like teaching and medicine. But today, it seems that most of these traditional differences have become blended almost completely.

I am not necessarily saying this blending is wrong. I’m posting this topic precisely because I’m not sure where it is correct or not, whether morally or technically. Are gender differences that important? Can women do anything men can do (within physical capacity), and vice versa? More so, should they? As to gender rights, should women be able to serve in the military? If so, how extensive should their roles be, e.g. frontlines or support? I would greatly appreciate information on these topics. Thank you all and God bless. 🙂
 
To get to the point, my question is: what is the Church’s position on differences between the genders? I am not speaking only about gender rights, especially not in the sense of some inherent entitlement as modern people speak of it. I am specifically asking about the mental and physical differences and what they mean for social roles for the genders. Traditionally, different attributes were assigned and different roles given for men and women. Men were considered strong, brave, protective, giving, intellectual, faithful; women were considered compassionate, kind, loving, gentle, motherly, charitable, wise, devout. Men were the soldiers, the businessmen, the professionals, while women were the mothers, the wives, and workers in smaller businesses and more personal, social roles like teaching and medicine. But today, it seems that most of these traditional differences have become blended almost completely.

I am not necessarily saying this blending is wrong. I’m posting this topic precisely because I’m not sure where it is correct or not, whether morally or technically. Are gender differences that important? Can women do anything men can do (within physical capacity), and vice versa? More so, should they? As to gender rights, should women be able to serve in the military? If so, how extensive should their roles be, e.g. frontlines or support? I would greatly appreciate information on these topics. Thank you all and God bless. 🙂
IMHO women should be able to enter whatever career field they wish (outside of ordination). This assumes, of course, that they are able to meet the required standard of the position being filled. As for the military, I served over 10 years in the army and know many good female soldiers.
 
There are certain defining physical characteristics possessed by males and females which will affect their proclivities and experiences in some manner.

However, in terms of fulfilling particular roles in society, the differences between individuals are often far greater than the differences between the sexes. Some women are innately aggressive, whilst some men are innately nurturing. It might be the case that fewer women are aggressive and fewer men are nurturing than the generality of the sexes, but that does not make sex/gender, in and of itself, the deciding factor in which person is best suited for which role in society.
 
You could look up some science, such as the idea of the male brain and female brain. Also, fetal development. Evolutionary psychology may provide some advice — if you’re a creationist then just chew the meat and spit out the bones 😃 Also, there is the Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on women and, at the top, is linked a papal encyclical on the dignity of woman.
 
But today, it seems that most of these traditional differences have become blended almost completely.

I am not necessarily saying this blending is wrong. I’m posting this topic precisely because I’m not sure where it is correct or not, whether morally or technically. Are gender differences that important? Can women do anything men can do (within physical capacity), and vice versa? More so, should they? As to gender rights, should women be able to serve in the military? If so, how extensive should their roles be, e.g. frontlines or support?
Yes to all questions.

Yet the blending is still wrong, because it ignores and tries to undue the existing natural differences regarding mean values.

Because in fields where gender differences in mean values exists, the number of men and women succeding in specific tasks will differ, due to different average capabilities. So for example, in the field of close combat (which is relevant for example for police officers) the same amount of training for a group of men and women will result in different numbers of men and women meeting the desired capabilities, meaning more men will be able and will do jobs for which close combat is relevant, even if the training and selection process had been perfectly fair (e.g. more male police officers than female is likely not cause due to discrimination, but due to men better suited to handle criminals). Also the top perfomer among men will be better than the top performer among women.

The reverse of course could be true in different fields, for example caring for small children, where even the most motivated men somehow managing several young childs can only think in awe of women having 8+ children without jumping out of the window.

With all the gender stupidity society ignores and denies this and somehow thinks, that with same training women and men will on average equally capable in all fields. Thats a dangerous mistake, because assuming one has a fair training and selection process for police officers, the police force would comprise more men. But society will, as it assumes there must be no differences, mess around until the selection process is so tilted towards the less talented gender, that the selection process will be flawed and no longer the best will do the job.

A nice way to check, whether someone had to much genderhogwash (name removed by moderator)ut, is the following question:
You have 2 groups of 100 randomly selected people. You have 2 tasks at hand and for each task you can select only 1 group and then the other group has to do the other task. In either case, you can train the group for one or several years before attempting the task.

The first task is to take care of a group of 200 children aged 0-5 in such way, that their well being doe not suffer. The other task is to go somewhere, meet another group of roughly 100 people and convince them through the use of clubs, that they should go elsewhere.

Your first group is entire female, the other is entire male.

Which group would you select for which task?

The fascinating thing is, many,many people are so brainwashed, that they are uncertain about the answer. And thats although history cleary shows, which would be the best answer and although even today daycare facilities are overwhelmingly staffed with women, while anti-riot police forces are nearly all men.
 
I too think that there are distinctive gender differences, not only physically but in the way information is processed and acted upon between the sexes. However, I do not think that this automatically limits capability to an either/or situation. In the case of acting as a police officer, it is true that men will find handling suspects with physical force easier then women and if using physical force and aggression is the sole basis of qualification for such work then, of course, men would be the superior choice.

However, any good cop out there will tell you that the use of physical force is only one of many skills a police officer needs to perform their job competently, and that in fact, many times women police officers tend to be more capable of defusing a situation before it turns violent and would require the use of physical force. I would go even further to say that if a cop does not possess far more skills then the obvious physical combat type then they would not be qualified for police work, regardless of gender.

The second question is equally problematic as “proof” of gender based job designation. Do the math. At 100 team members, the care of 200 children ages 0-5, is only 2 children to each member. Many men routinely look after 2 rather young children while their wives perform other tasks or are not available at the moment. I find this statement to be a huge discredit to many fine Catholic men with large families that show far more nurturing skills then you are willing to credit men with having. -soft chuckles-

Yes, I totally believe in the authentic femininity taught in the encyclicals and church teachings and cherish my differences from a man and that of all women in the world as have been shown, but too broad a generalization is not what I take away from such teachings, personally. I don’t want to turn men into women or attempt to be a man myself, but I do wish to be evaluated far more on an individual basis in my life and skills. God Bless!
 
However, any good cop out there will tell you that the use of physical force is only one of many skills a police officer needs to perform their job competently,
Never said anything contrary.But if there is a list of skills, A,B,C,…, and men are better on average in one of them and there are no other differences offsetting this, then more men will and should be in the job. And thats something modern genderhgwash cannot stand and tries to ignore. And that is a problem. They try to claim, there are no differences, not even in the averages.
The second question is equally problematic as “proof” of gender based job designation. Do the math.
God bless and read the question.
One group takes care of the children, the other beats up some rabblerousers.No way you choose the men to take care of the children.

edit:
And of course the men can succeed at taking care of the children, just like the women can succeed in convincing the troublemakers to go away (100 women with clubs can also be threatening). The choice is nontheless obvious, because for one task men are more talented, while for the other women are more talented.
 
To get to the point, my question is: what is the Church’s position on differences between the genders? I am not speaking only about gender rights, especially not in the sense of some inherent entitlement as modern people speak of it. I am specifically asking about the mental and physical differences and what they mean for social roles for the genders. Traditionally, different attributes were assigned and different roles given for men and women. Men were considered strong, brave, protective, giving, intellectual, faithful; women were considered compassionate, kind, loving, gentle, motherly, charitable, wise, devout. Men were the soldiers, the businessmen, the professionals, while women were the mothers, the wives, and workers in smaller businesses and more personal, social roles like teaching and medicine. But today, it seems that most of these traditional differences have become blended almost completely.

I am not necessarily saying this blending is wrong. I’m posting this topic precisely because I’m not sure where it is correct or not, whether morally or technically. Are gender differences that important? Can women do anything men can do (within physical capacity), and vice versa? More so, should they? As to gender rights, should women be able to serve in the military? If so, how extensive should their roles be, e.g. frontlines or support? I would greatly appreciate information on these topics. Thank you all and God bless. 🙂
My own opinion is that individuals should be allowed to try to do any job that they can qaulify for, and want to do, regardless of gender.

My experience in the military is that there are many jobs that women do as well or better than men. There are some jobs which they have difficulty qualifying for, on average. For example, the physical training standard for female had to be relaxed, in order for them to qualify as Marines. To me, anyone who cannot meet the more rigorous standards set for men should not be in close combat. Another example, is that there are female aviators. They are equal to men. However, when the first women were trained to fly the F-14 aircraft, my understanding is that they all washed out, because they did not have the lower body strength and physical stamina to fly the plane well enough. The Navy moved them to other aircraft quietly, in order to avoid public relations issues around women’s rights. This is what a pilot tells me who was a trainer at the time for F-14’s. Technology, such as “fly by wire”, improved flight suits, computerized controls, have reduced the strength and physical stamina requirements, while putting added mental stresses on a fighter pilot.

Men have better spatial orientation without landmarks, where women have a better recollection and orientation to landmarks. This is seen as an evolutionary adaption to the tradition of women staying close to home to care for offspring, and therefore surviving if they could remember the location of that good food source near the home, while men wandered off long distances to hunt. A sub captain and a fighter pilot need to think of a battle space in 3D, in new surroundings with no landmarks. So, one might expect males to perform better, on average, under actual operations or combat conditions. I don’t know if this has been studied, or not. The bottom line though, is personal ability, aptitude and motivation. Every person varies, regardless of gender.

On the nurturing issue, one of the some of the more intriguing studies on same sex couples raising children has been that there is some evidence that the children raised by lesbian couples are healthier by every psychological measure than any other gender combination. This is seen as being do to the greater nurturing capacity on average of two “mothers” rather than only one in a household. I work in medicine, and I can tell you that there are many very nurturing males who work in this field. There was a time when men were expected not to be nurses, and women were expected not to be physicians. So the sword cuts both ways.

I don’t know of any moral or ethical objection that the Church would have over any gender working in any profession, except that it does concern itself with temptation and scandal. So, there might be some opposition to a male locker room attendant in a female facility, etc… But that might be changing too, as we have seen with coaches and reporters who claim that their access should be equal to men for professional reasons. It is true, that nobody has ever objected to male medical professionals treating females, or females treating males. The bottom line is professionalism, and mutual respect.

There were some concerns about living quarters in combat. The only situations I heard of where mixed genders occupied close quarters was in a few army units during the Iraq invasion. The word was that everyone was professional about it all, and there were no problems. Living conditions can be extremely close. Tank crews pretty much lived in their tanks for days at a time. Marines don’t leave each others sight to defecate while on the move, due to the risk of ambush if one goes off behind a rock or tree. So, there is not much modesty allowed. This might be a consideration.
 
Singling out these:
For example, the physical training standard for female had to be relaxed, in order for them to qualify as Marines. To me, anyone who cannot meet the more rigorous standards set for men should not be in close combat.
Because our society cannot stand that there are differences between genders in averages at least in some fields, it sends women into combat (and men along with them), which do not have the qualities the experts so far thought marines should have.

If lucky, the experts were wrong (the standards were set to high) and there will no negative effect. If the experts are correct, people might die and maybe even battles could be lost because our society cannot stand reality and indulges in fatasies.
 
To get to the point, my question is: what is the Church’s position on differences between the genders? I am not speaking only about gender rights, especially not in the sense of some inherent entitlement as modern people speak of it. I am specifically asking about the mental and physical differences and what they mean for social roles for the genders. …
As we know, Genesis says, “Male and female He created them.” FWIW, one way I looked at this is the first division of labor. Adam Smith in his Wealth of Nations [1776] describes a pin factory in which each worker could make about 100 pins per day. After a proper division of labor, two workers could make about 4,000 pins per day. 🙂
 
I would like to make a suggestion towards avoiding enabling the abuse of language. This is important as if language is abused with equivocation and the like, all kinds of falsehoods can be made to sound plausible and even convincing.

When one talks about male or female creature, we talk of their sex. The concept of male or female (or other, eg, in German) gender is an attribute applied to words. Sex (the attribute) is a physical and biological (and for humans, spiritual) reality. Gender is a linguistic convention that has no reality at all not contingent on the compliance of the users of the language. Since sex is a platonic concept in a way that gender is not, these are two fundamentally very different concepts, despite their superficial similarities. That alone should suggest that when we use them interchangeably, we be very careful.

It is true that the meanings of words can change over time. But during that process, the danger is confusion as to whether the original or the newer meaning is intended. We see this phenomenon a lot today: a particular word meaning “a visceral sinful dislike” is being used in some circles to mean “a principled position of disagreement”. Of itself no problem, but when the meanings are equivocated (sometimes intentionally) we have a problem. A big one. Same with these words. Their interchangeability must be tempered with avoiding confusion from importing the differences in the original meanings across their interchange.

The use of sex as a linguistic term has the danger of suggesting a fundamental reality about words which they simply do not have. Conversely (and more to my point) the use of gender as a biological or humanistic term runs the risk of suggesting these attributes of creatures are arbitrary or whimsical, and this is absolutely not the case.

So to avoid confusion strive for clarity of communication, I strongly encourage the use of sex and sex differences on this topic.
 
Singling out these:

Because our society cannot stand that there are differences between genders in averages at least in some fields, it sends women into combat (and men along with them), which do not have the qualities the experts so far thought marines should have.

If lucky, the experts were wrong (the standards were set to high) and there will no negative effect. If the experts are correct, people might die and maybe even battles could be lost because our society cannot stand reality and indulges in fatasies.
One issue to consider, is that the battle lines are nebulous. By that I mean there is no telling when you are going to be on the front line, unexpectedly, due to guerrilla tactics inherent in asymmetrical war. Pretty much any conflict that the US gets into will be asymmetrical.

Women sent to a war zone are at risk of being directly in harms way, on the front line, even it that was not the intent of their job assignment.

Obviously, for a planned operation, males are the tip of the spear. But it is very possible for female support personnel to also find themselves under fire. These facts should be considered when deciding who gets what job, and when.
 
It seems the common assumption is that war is something that men go off to do while the women stay home safe and sound. In the case of the U.S. that is is true. But what about women who are living in war torn countries? They are the victims and casualties of war too. Don’t they have a right to defend themselves and their families?
 
Singling out these:

Because our society cannot stand that there are differences between genders in averages at least in some fields, it sends women into combat (and men along with them), which do not have the qualities the experts so far thought marines should have.

If lucky, the experts were wrong (the standards were set to high) and there will no negative effect. If the experts are correct, people might die and maybe even battles could be lost because our society cannot stand reality and indulges in fatasies.
The experts are wrong. The vast vast vast majority of women in the military do not get anywhere near combat. Yet somehow a higher percentage of military women have PTSD than men. If you care at all about the well-being of women, get them the heck out of the military period. It is not a woman’s world.

There was once a time when Christian men held Christian women up on a pedestal. This great experiment of gender equality does not grant women additional esteem and/or rights, it in fact takes much of them away. It was out of great love for women that men would die. Out of love would a man protect a woman, out of love would a woman receive the most plentiful rations of food, out of love would a woman be removed from harm’s way. Now man is told he doesn’t have to, because he is told that woman can protect herself.
 
As we know, Genesis says, “Male and female He created them.” FWIW, one way I looked at this is the first division of labor. Adam Smith in his Wealth of Nations [1776] describes a pin factory in which each worker could make about 100 pins per day. After a proper division of labor, two workers could make about 4,000 pins per day. 🙂
As we also know, Genesis also says, "To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”’ Yet even our dearest clergymen who are hell-bent on political correctness will never utter such words in public, but will instead revert to the 6 word line that you posted which JPII used to pander to the women of the world.
 
The experts are wrong. The vast vast vast majority of women in the military do not get anywhere near combat. Yet somehow a higher percentage of military women have PTSD than men. If you care at all about the well-being of women, get them the heck out of the military period. It is not a woman’s world.

There was once a time when Christian men held Christian women up on a pedestal. This great experiment of gender equality does not grant women additional esteem and/or rights, it in fact takes much of them away. It was out of great love for women that men would die. Out of love would a man protect a woman, out of love would a woman receive the most plentiful rations of food, out of love would a woman be removed from harm’s way. Now man is told he doesn’t have to, because he is told that woman can protect herself.
Oh, you mean Chivalry? This concept of Chivalry of putting women up on a pedestal only applied to women of noble birth. Peasant women, though fellow Christians, were not accorded this treatment.
 
Oh, you mean Chivalry? This concept of Chivalry of putting women up on a pedestal only applied to women of noble birth. Peasant women, though fellow Christians, were not accorded this treatment.
If what you say is true, then peasant women should have been accorded the same treatment.

Problem solved.
 
Speaking unofficially, I don’t think the Church has a rigid box of options with regards to women’s career choices. I do think however, that the Church emphazises the woman’s need to physically care for the children.

Personally, I think perhaps certain units of the military should be male-only, if only to reduce the risk of vulnerability and conflict. Never having served in the military though, I would concede to whatever opinion the majority of soldiers hold. I also don’t believe that jobs which have physical requirements should have to lower their standards in order to admit more women (firefighters, etc).

I think men should stay away from the entire gynocological field.🙂
Men have better spatial orientation without landmarks, where women have a better recollection and orientation to landmarks. This is seen as an evolutionary adaption to the tradition of women staying close to home to care for offspring, and therefore surviving if they could remember the location of that good food source near the home, while men wandered off long distances to hunt.
I’m a little confused as to how evolutionary adaptation would provide for women a better recollection and orientation with regards to landmarks. Since men were indeed the ones who traveled the greater distances, wouldn’t this mean *they *would be the ones better equipped to find their way back to the home camp?:confused:
 
A nice way to check, whether someone had to much genderhogwash (name removed by moderator)ut, is the following question:
You have 2 groups of 100 randomly selected people. You have 2 tasks at hand and for each task you can select only 1 group and then the other group has to do the other task. In either case, you can train the group for one or several years before attempting the task.

The first task is to take care of a group of 200 children aged 0-5 in such way, that their well being doe not suffer. The other task is to go somewhere, meet another group of roughly 100 people and convince them through the use of clubs, that they should go elsewhere.

Your first group is entire female, the other is entire male.

Which group would you select for which task?

The fascinating thing is, many,many people are so brainwashed, that they are uncertain about the answer. And thats although history cleary shows, which would be the best answer and although even today daycare facilities are overwhelmingly staffed with women, while anti-riot police forces are nearly all men.
And therein lies the problem: people are not statistical norms, they are individuals.

Suppose your 100 men included 50 who are physically weak, uncoordinated, unaggressive, nurturing, and great with children.

And suppose your 100 women included 50 who are strong, aggressive, and not patient enough to deal with children.

Congratulations! By sorting them by gender stereotypes, you just created TWO teams that are going to fail miserably at their tasks. But had you looked at people as individuals instead of numbers, both teams could have been very successful.

(As for me, I don’t like children but I have a hot temper, impressive upper body strength, and a menacing appearance.)

Jala
 
I remember in my intro sociology class a section of our book covered the topic of gender.

Sociologist correctly differentiate between biological sex and gender. So does the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. About the only thing I know of Church teaching on the issue of gender is that it arrives at a different conclusion about transsexuals than sociologists and says that a persons gender should correspond with their sex. Sociologist think of it as an amoral issue.
 
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