J
Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Yeah, it is so much worse that when done by a skilled surgeon most gynecologists wont notice much difference between them and a woman who had a hysterectomyEwww! That’s ever worse!![]()
Yeah, it is so much worse that when done by a skilled surgeon most gynecologists wont notice much difference between them and a woman who had a hysterectomyEwww! That’s ever worse!![]()
So?Yeah, it is so much worse that when done by a skilled surgeon most gynecologists wont notice much difference between them and a woman who had a hysterectomy
I had a friend who suffered from gender dysphoria. The anguish was terrible. They weren’t in denial about the reality of their body or their DNA. Their brain and their mind was just “someone else”. They just want a way to resolve it. And like the other poster said, if a Pill would fix their brain, they’d take it.The bottom line is SRS does not change the DNA. XY remains XY. (Let’s exclude the rare XXY or Klinefleter syndrome and other permutations.)
,
I don’t doubt the anguish is terrible. But a surgical solution is not the way to resolve a mental condition. Along that line, what is society to do with species dysphoria, open the door to trans species?I had a friend who suffered from gender dysphoria. The anguish was terrible. They weren’t in denial about the reality of their body or their DNA. Their brain and their mind was just “someone else”. They just want a way to resolve it. And like the other poster said, if a Pill would fix their brain, they’d take it.
I suppose a solution focussed on the brain would be “the way” - but we don’t have one! I read the Church can accept these kinds of surgeries in really bad cases.I don’t doubt the anguish is terrible. But a surgical solution is not the way to resolve a mental condition.
You read something based on a sub secretum document that supposedly indicated thatI suppose a solution focussed on the brain would be “the way” - but we don’t have one! I read the Church can accept these kinds of surgeries in really bad cases.
Are you arguing the surgery is always immoral, or that it may not help everyone achieve the level of comfort with self that most of us enjoy? The latter would hardly be a surprise.You read something based on a sub secretum document that supposedly indicated that
“-- An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It
concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain
extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the
patient’s internal turmoil.”
But also indicated that
“-- A source familiar with the document said recent medical evidence
suggested that in a majority of cases the procedure increases the
likelihood of depression and psychic disturbance.”
At any rate, according to a study, Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden, the conclusion reached is as follows:
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.
,
Not sure if I will go so far to say it is always immoral.Are you arguing the surgery is always immoral, or that it may not help everyone achieve the level of comfort with self that most of us enjoy? The latter would hardly be a surprise.
That last paragraph above sounds pretty right.
OK. I’d question just about anything on this topic because it is so utterly foreign to me!Not sure if I will go so far to say it is always immoral.
This articulates what is immoral about sex change operations. However, it says too that the moral judgment that genital-changing operations are immoral does not entail that people cannot have false beliefs, or that their feelings and attitudes cannot be irrational or not in conformity with reality.
I would also question the use of SRS if it does not eliminate and still renders a lifelong need for psychotherapy and hormone treatment. With or without surgery, therefore, the person needs to undergo said palliative treatment without which there would ever be a feeling of relief or comfort level. Why go under the knife in the most drastic, irreversible way? In fact, there are so many accounts of regret after SRS on record.
,
As for “physical reality” which you and the poster who just joined the thread raised, the National Catholic Bioethics Center as cited addresses this directly,OK. I’d question just about anything on this topic because it is so utterly foreign to me!
Not sure what you mean by reality. The reality of DNA and body is not questioned by sufferers. It’s the “reality” of what’s going on in their head, and for which there seems to be no treatment, that is the problem. [Whether this “reality” is like the reality of schizophrenia - for which drugs can be an effective treatment, or a different kind of reality, I don’t know.]
I cannot imagine anyone chooses the knife recklessly, and those who do choose it would I hope be informed about the data on both effective and ineffective surgeries.
Does not the position put too much emphasis on the body and not on the person’s mind – i.e., on what the person believes and feels? Some may think that when the state of one’s mind does not match up with one’s body, why defer to the body? Why let the body dictate what one’s sexual identity is and not one’s mind?
These questions are important and bring us to the heart of the issue. It is granted and well accepted that a person’s self – the constellation of beliefs, desires, emotional dispositions and character traits – constitute someone’s self-image and self-understanding. But it should also be granted that not all of our beliefs, desires, and self-understanding conform to the truth. Our reasoning capabilities, memory and even basic sensation such as visual perception can err and give rise to false beliefs. The response we take in those cases is to correct the false beliefs. When our self understands something false about us, this needs to be corrected as well, not acceded to.
To answer the questions directly, those who hold this position assume a dualism between mind and body. Properly understood, persons are either male or female. The body (of the person) is a fundamental indication of what sex we belong to. It is a physical, empirically verifiable reality that does not change simply because our beliefs or desires do. Once the dualism behind the question is rejected, and one recognizes that our sex is indicated by our bodies, we can see that sexual identity is an objective, readily discernible fact about us. As some philosophers put it, we are bodies.
The poster, understandably, would not be in agreement. Those who have decided to undergo SRS for themselves have to continue with the insistence that surgery is the answer, and would lash out, branding the naysayers in the mental science field like Dr. McHugh as manipulative and dishonest, and call those who would rather take the NCBC’s well reasoned position over their justification for a mistaken belief as ignorant.What seems to happen in these cases of mutilating surgeries is that the individual attempts to capitulate to the emotional disorder through surgical means rather than addressing it as what it truly is, a psychological disorder.
**Gender dysphoria is suggested to be a consequence of sex atypical cerebral differentiation. **We tested this hypothesis in a magnetic resonance study of voxel-based morphometry and structural volumetry in 48 heterosexual men (HeM) and women (HeW) and 24 gynephillic male to female transsexuals (MtF-TR). Specific interest was paid to gray matter (GM) and white matter (WM) fraction, hemispheric asymmetry, and volumes of the hippocampus, thalamus, caudate, and putamen. Like HeM, MtF-TR displayed larger GM volumes than HeW in the cerebellum and lingual gyrus and smaller GM and WM volumes in the precentral gyrus. Both male groups had smaller hippocampal volumes than HeW. As in HeM, but not HeW, the right cerebral hemisphere and thalamus volume was in MtF-TR lager than the left. None of these measures differed between HeM and MtF-TR. MtF-TR displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus.**The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized. **The observed changes in MtF-TR bring attention to the networks inferred in processing of body perception.
How can you both claim it is real and a delusion?I think it’s a real disorder, but I disagree with the idea that treatment for it is to confuse the individual further by encouraging them in their delusion and demanding that all others participate in it.
I guess she means they are not pretending, or indulging some immature flight of fancy.How can you both claim it is real and a delusion?
I’d appreciate if you could stop with the assumptions about me (and others in my position/of my views) as a person; I’m afraid you miss badly.The poster, understandably, would not be in agreement. Those who have decided to undergo SRS for themselves have to continue with the insistence (…)
Thank you; this is the first time since I started posting on CAF that someone [edit: who is opposed to sex reassignment] actually managed to dig up an actual study that actually brings new data on the table.As a matter of fact, contrary to the claim of “trans brain structure,” purportedly explaining sex dimorphism in the brain, the Stockholm Brain Institute study by Savic and Arver, appears to disprove said claim.
Lastly, it should be noted that Blanchard, despite distinguishing between androphilic and gynephilic trans women, still recommended hormonal and surgical treatment for both groups; it is still the only treatment shown to help.Also meriting emphasis is that—although these data disconfirm that the heterosexual type has a feminized brain pattern—the data nonetheless confirm that heterosexual transsexuals have a brain structure distinct from that of typical (nontranssexual) persons. Their gender identity is not a transient or ephemeral characteristic, but a likely innate and immutable characteristic, emerging from their particular brain structure.
At least, I am hearing somewhat of a concession. From “smug references to ‘physical reality,’ which demonstrates ignorance about transgenderism as well as the human body,” clearly in my direction, to “when it comes to people who would rather take NCBC’s position … over the established scientific consensus within the field ( … that HRT/SRS are the only known treatments that demonstrably work),” they are NOT necessarily ignorant, that they may just be having a heavy confirmation bias.
What she means is that the issue is real the solution proposed of treating the issue by living a lie is delusional. Basically the solution given by current society is convince yourself that you have a sex that you don’t have and tell everyone that that you are from a sex that you are not and that is going to cure the problem. It is a delusion because it is not treating the problem it is making you to live a lie to be happy and that is not a real solution.How can you both claim it is real and a delusion?
There is no contradiction, nor a concession here - the numerous smug references to “physical reality” (without further qualification) do indeed demonstrate ignorance. It is however also possible to be knowledgeable yet strongly biased, which is what I sometimes see in those who bring up the NCBC statement, which is mistaken in its very premises (hint: I do not, and medical science does not, assert a dualism between mind and soul. I see the mind as at the very least contingent on the body, while medical science in practice sees the mind as an epiphenomenon of the body. The dualism argument is misguided at best, and a straw man at worst).At least, I am hearing somewhat of a concession. From "smug references to ‘physical reality,’ (…)
Tu quoque.Confirmation bias, which you admit elsewhere to also have.
A claim I often see being made, but rarely see being justified.The fact is established scientific consensus is arguable, with consensus reached more often than not on political considerations instead of scientific principles.
Obviously not.Science on a so called transgender brain is far from settled.
And again, the central nervous system is a physical attribute.Further, there is (…) that one can insist that he or she is really of the opposite sex or gender, regardless that his genetic and all physical attributes are unambiguously male or female.
Oh, I am most certainly on the HRT path, and I’ve also not denied I’m strongly considering SRS, though I will not decide in at least a few years yet. My doctor discourages SRS (and there went another myth out the window) except in cases where it’s the absolutely last resort, and I agree with them.You may say you have not yet made the decision to undergo SRS; however, your postings on this and other threads indicate you earnestly wish(…)
That caveat (presuming you’re thinking of the one about causes and efficiency of treatment) is not within the domain of faith and morals, and it was inspired by McHugh. It has since been proved improbable by research. Sadly, the Church can, has and may also in the future make errors in Her understanding of science.As every trans seeking a dispensation from the Church, you wish to hang your hat on the statement from the purported sub secretum (…) said part of the purported document came with a caveat and very specific context.
I agree with every word of the Holy Father’s speech, and most trans people would. It does not address transgenderism, but gender deconstructionism - an ideology which is as opposed to the transgender phenomenon as it is to Catholic teaching.I think you need to pause before you set aside the papal wisdom of Benedict VI (in his homily Dec. 12, 2012)
I’ve already indicated one of the many reasons I do not place much faith in the NCBC on this matter.the NCBC position on the issue
…and my issue would be similar here. As with NCBC, I highly respect CA in other areas of discourse (especially the articles regarding Protestantism and anti-Catholicism are excellent, if I may say so), but on this, their argumentation falls short.the counsel of Fr. Serpa and CAF apologists, etc.
Thank you, and I believe you.Rin, I believe and don’t question that you and others like you have known suffering for many years.
To make myself clear: I’m not surprised in the sense that I thought it impossible - I’m surprised since I haven’t seen it in the more than a year I’ve been lurking (and later writing) on CAF.How to persuade you, who is surprised that someone in the forum who is opposed to SRS has “actually managed to dig up a study that actually brings new data on the table”?
I will, but later. It’s nearing bed time here.Please read what I posted on #52.
Thank you.May you reach the peace and reconciliation with yourself that you seek.