Gender dysphoria?

[InSearchofGrace]

InSearch - reading your posts, I get the sense you have a “need” to believe ill of those suffering dysphoria and considering SR(S). Do you have a “need” to reject the idea that brain structure may play some part in transgenderism? If the theory pans out, would it dull the evil you perceive in these people or in their search for relief?

Perhaps you should reread my postings. Brain structure has not been proven to explain transgenderism but some people are already running with it as though it is unassailable. If the theory pans out it contributes to transgenderism, do you think it justifies SRS? If you agree to SRS as necessary treatment to the condition in addition to hormone replacement and psychological counseling, just say so without use of inflammatory phrasing. Have you read at all about those who regret undergoing SRS? Lastly, I think it is a mistake for sufferers of transgenderism to undergo mutilation from a moral and rational standpoint, not that I perceive evil in people who seek relief!
,

 

[Rin]

Rin:

Pardon me, if you do not come across as credible when you say you only view SRS as an option, … as last resort, because not too long ago, you said this in a thread also on SRS,

Sure you repressed the wish before but have been moving towards SRS since. I think your mind is set on it and you are just playing coy.

No, I am most definitely not.

But yes, when I first read about sex reassignment in my early teens, it felt like delivery in a sense. However, as you seem to have ignored in your quotation of me (a trait I have observed before, by the way - you seem to read me very selectively at times), I did put the S for Surgery in parenthesis: SR(S).

At that time, sex reassignment was presented to me through media simply as “getting a female body”, and I did not understand the details. However, it felt like a relief just knowing it was possible. Only later did I learn more about the details. Only much later did I learn it is possible to get HRT without SRS; the official gender clinic in my country rejects patients who express doubts about wanting SRS. However, I’m lucky to have found a doctor who prescribes HRT without “committing” to get SRS (however, it is not covered by welfare this way, so I am actually paying to possibly avoid SRS), who is realistic about the nature of SRS, the need for it, and not least agrees that it should only be used as a last resort.

So no, I am not “playing coy”. You are, however, increasingly demonstrating that you will gladly twist my words to prove your nonexistent point.

If you look at my posts since I started writing on CAF, I have always clearly expressed that SRS is moral as a last resort. Your consistent misreading of my posts only confirms my suspicion about your reading of studies, papal speeches and the like; you read whatever you want into them.

Of course, choosing SRS is your choice, as it is your choosing to believe an alternate meaning to the Pope BVI’s homily in 2012, to disbelieve studies in opposition to the unproven brain structure based etiology of transgenderism, and what the research really say, versus alleged consensus of so called professionals.

I choose to read all those materials critically, without reading things into them that aren’t there. I have a degree in Philosophy and Theology, where hermeneutics and scientific methodology was central. I have formal training in exegesis (in which I received excellent marks, by the way). I will gladly admit that this does not make me a scientist, and far from a licensed theologian. However, compared to your eisegesis, it seems to at least enable me to read papal speeches and scientific studies with reduced bias (since bias always exists - it can only be reduced).

It has become easier to ride the headline grabbing transgender culture war, and so called transgender rights, which include the cry for tax payer funded SRS. I oppose it, just like Fr. Z is opposed to tax payers paying for SRS. Fr. Z is not rude and disrespectful. He speaks the truth and those who don’t like the truth can make unfounded claims. If that makes him and me “Christian ideologues” in your view, so be it.

I’m sorry, but I know conservative priests (with whom I often disagree, but they are still treasured friends of mine) who stopped reading Fr. Z’s blog because he is rude, disrespectful, and so on. They agree with much of what he says in essence (though they realize that much of his writings are not “the truth”, but his opinion), but strongly object to his tone. I could elaborate more, but I will end that particular sub-thread here, since it is irrelevant, and about a third-party who is not present. I made the reference jokingly, mainly to say that I did not have time for a full-on exegesis of Benedict’s text. At least I learned something about you as a consequence.

Also, you are again misquoting me. I have never once used the word “Christian ideologues”. There is no Christian ideology, since ideology is in its very nature un-Christian. Ideology is always sectarian, always based on a category mistake (in this context, applying something which explains one or more categories into explaining all categories), and always evil. Christianity is neither sectarian, nor based on a category mistake, nor evil. Hence, Christianity cannot be ideology; there may be ideologized Christianity, but such is a perversion of Christianity.

The term I really used was “conservative ideologues”. Sadly, many people seem to confuse conservatism with orthodoxy, while in reality, conservatism is every bit as heterodox as liberalism.

You see how this exchange is futile, our views diametrically opposed on several levels. Yes, I believe we are finished.

The exchange is indeed futile. However, we will not be finished until you stop posting nonsense about me.

InSearch - reading your posts, I get the sense you have a “need” to believe ill of those suffering dysphoria and considering SR(S). Do you have a “need” to reject the idea that brain structure may play some part in transgenderism? If the theory pans out, would it dull the evil you perceive in these people or in their search for relief?

Thank you for being honest, critical (in the true sense of the word, of every view presented) and open to accept proof in either direction in this and other threads. We may not always agree, but I do truly appreciate your posts.

 

[Rin]

Rin, one can easily find material that points to transgenderism as a kind of example of gender deconstructionism at work. Can you explain the distinction as you see it. What tangible actions in the world motivated the Pope’s statement?

The distinction as I see it is that gender deconstructionism rejects innate gender differences, while transgenderism affirms it. While gender deconstructionists will say that children’s choice of toys and so on is merely a product of society (boys being given toy cars, girls being given dolls), transgender individuals will report this choice to be innate - they went to play with their sisters’ dolls, and left the toy cars alone, often long before they were even able to consider gender differences intellectually.

Gender deconstructionism consequently claims that we are what we wish to be (or in some cases that which society has seasoned us to be), while transgender individuals report to be that which they don’t want to be. None of us would choose to be trans. It is involuntary, and it comes at great cost.

Gender deconstructionism further claims that gender can be chosen or changed, since it is merely a societal construct. Transgender individuals report to be incapable of change, despite intensely wishing such a change, at least until they manage some level of self-acceptance. Deciding on receiving medical treatment is an acknowledgement that we cannot change our gender; it is an affirmation of our immutable gender, not a change.

There is however one point of convergence, and that is in “third sex” or “gender fluid” identities. I am ambivalent towards these. Some, perhaps the majority, of those who claim such identities seem to do so merely as a cultural or political statement, often without seeking or even claiming to need any kind of treatment. These people are also almost invariably gender deconstructionists.

However, there are also those who experience heavy dysphoria when forced to identify with either gender, which is alleviated with low dose hormone regimens, resulting in an androgynous body. The latter people will often report their gender ambiguity to be similarly “hard-coded” as with those who are “classic” transsexuals, and describe it as a kind of “mental intersex”. So again, they affirm gender as something innate, and immutable. I see no reason to doubt their experience (especially since low-dose HRT seems to truly help them psychologically), but I do believe they are either male or female, but that this identity may be indeterminable in this life, in our current, fallen state.

An important thing to remember is that not long ago, gender deconstructionism was the prevalent view among those who study gender. This is slowly changing, because of discoveries in research on transgenderism. Few theorists now dispute that gender has a neurological component, that much of the gender differences truly are innate. This is now (virtually) only disputed by (very) radical feminists. In a sense, gender theorists are now closer to Catholic doctrine (except on the matter of binarity, since they study gender on a phenomenological level rather than an ontological one) than in decades, due to research on transgenderism. They may claim that an innate difference does not mean we should “limit ourselves” to those differences, but at least they now acknowledge that there even are innate differences. That is a fairly significant change, even compared to the prevalent views less than two decades ago.

As to tangible actions in the world, gender deconstructionists often advocate that gender as a category should be completely discarded, they are staunchly opposed to the complementarity of the sexes, and so on. Needless to say, they are also extremely opposed to Catholic views on society, since much of our views stem from the idea that gender differences are innate. They have been very prominent, especially in Europe. I think this is what prompted the speech.

I have to go now, but at least I hope this is sufficient as initial pointers. If you Google a bit on the conflict between transgender people and radical feminists (often called TERF, trans-exclusionary radical feminist, to distinguish from those feminists who accept transgenderism), you’ll probably find a lot more material on this.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Man! I Feel Like a Woman?

catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/man-i-feel-like-a-woman

By Trent Horn, Catholic Answers speaker and Staff Apologist.
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…In a speech at the Vatican last December 21, 2012, Pope Benedict directly addressed transgender issues by cautioning Catholics about “destroying the very essence of the human creature through manipulating their God-given gender to suit their sexual choices.” Pope Benedict warned that “when freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God.”

Certainly, Church teaching allows for the acknowledgment that there can be a biological reason for gender-identity disorder. But it also allows for the possibility of other dimensions to this disorder—a sociological dimension and a psychological dimension—that can never be addressed through cross-dressing or surgical intervention.

From CWR article, The Transgender Culture Wars,

catholicworldreport.com/Item/2527/the_transgender_culture_wars.aspx

 

[ToriProphet]

Hello friends,

             Whether we approve of the behavior of the transgendered or not is immaterial; they exist. Whether their lives are sinful or not is irrelevant; their Judgement is not ours to render. One might say, so too, of those who partake of the 'homosexual' vices, they exist and will be Judged. The Problem, for us, is the forcing of their 'lifestyles' upon us. Do we co-sign their vices by accepting their ascendancy, their attack upon our institutions and Freedoms? I suggest their is a model we can follow that might not seem initially evident.

             I am not one to give relativistic weight lightly to other 'religions', but an instructional example of 'fixing' the homosexual issue is Iran. Iran is a clear theocracy, which has institutionalized transsexing of homosexuals, that they might better find a useful place in the biological binary of man/woman. No, they might NOT be true men or women, but they for all matters of appearance, culture, and society fill those roles. This fix is mandatory. I suggest such a doctrine, used as a last resort if restoration therapy fails, is better for the society as a whole.

            This may seem a drastic solution, but is far more compassionate than letting them collect the damnation of their lifestyle, and the disfavor that depraved/permissive societies of Old brought upon themselves.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Man! I Feel Like a Woman?

catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/man-i-feel-like-a-woman

By Trent Horn, Catholic Answers speaker and Staff Apologist.
,

We’re allowing dentists to remove healthy wisdom teeth? Clearly we should allow doctors to severe spinal cords, because they are totally comparable. Yes I know that SRS and wisdom teeth removal are not the same however in neither case does it actually hinder

From CWR article, The Transgender Culture Wars,

catholicworldreport.com/Item/2527/the_transgender_culture_wars.aspx

Typical, conservatives mixing up transgender and gender deconstructionism.

Hello friends,

             Whether we approve of the behavior of the transgendered or not is immaterial; they exist. Whether their lives are sinful or not is irrelevant; their Judgement is not ours to render. One might say, so too, of those who partake of the 'homosexual' vices, they exist and will be Judged. The Problem, for us, is the forcing of their 'lifestyles' upon us. Do we co-sign their vices by accepting their ascendancy, their attack upon our institutions and Freedoms? I suggest their is a model we can follow that might not seem initially evident.

             I am not one to give relativistic weight lightly to other 'religions', but an instructional example of 'fixing' the homosexual issue is Iran. Iran is a clear theocracy, which has institutionalized transsexing of homosexuals, that they might better find a useful place in the biological binary of man/woman. No, they might NOT be true men or women, but they for all matters of appearance, culture, and society fill those roles. This fix is mandatory. I suggest such a doctrine, used as a last resort if restoration therapy fails, is better for the society as a whole.

            This may seem a drastic solution, but is far more compassionate than letting them collect the damnation of their lifestyle, and the disfavor that depraved/permissive societies of Old brought upon themselves.

That is morally repellant.

 

[Rau]

… Brain structure has not been proven to explain transgenderism but some people are already running with it as though it is unassailable.

And others reject it out of hand. What if we just keep an open mind?

If the theory pans out it contributes to transgenderism, do you think it justifies SRS? … I think it is a mistake for sufferers of transgenderism to undergo mutilation from a moral and rational standpoint, not that I perceive evil in people who seek relief!

I just don’t see it as clear-cut as you. Up until the middle of the last century, our understanding of the morality of amputations and the like revolved around the “principle of totality” - it was OK to cut off something when it was necessary to save the whole. That was the “context” of our understanding of the subject. Pius XI and XII wrote against mutilation, and always in an appropriate (relevant) context (concerns about eugenic sterilisation, totalitarianism/Nazi experimentation). Yet in the very early days when organ donation **first **began to be discussed, moral theologians of the time cited those Papal statements as authoritative when they (the theologians) censure “mutilation” for transplantation purposes. With hindsight this was poor form, for they failed to see the papal statements in their relevant context. Over time, an understanding of what was happening grew, and organ donation was recognised as a great act of charity, not one of mutilation. [The physical evil done to the donor’s body was not a moral evil - the Act had in fact a good moral object.]

I’m not trying to draw a long bow here. Just expressing the idea that it is sometimes wise to hasten slowly in proclaiming a moral order upon something not yet well understood.

Have you read at all about those who regret undergoing SRS?

Anecdotally, I understand sufferers have had good and bad experiences. This serves to caution anyone contemplating such irreversible treatment to approach the matter with utmost care and considerations. I can scarcely imagine anyone doing otherwise.

 

[Rin]

Anecdotally, I understand sufferers have had good and bad experiences. This serves to caution anyone contemplating such irreversible treatment to approach the matter with utmost care and considerations. I can scarcely imagine anyone doing otherwise.

Fully agreed about caution.

It is however also worth noting that most of those who regret SRS don’t regret HRT (if they regretted HRT, they would know that long before they were cleared for SRS, except in very, very rare cases), and many of them went along with SRS because it was the only way to get hormones, or because it was needed to change the sex marker in official documents, and so on. In countries like the one I live in, the situation is still that the official gender clinic (which is the only place where you can get treatment covered by welfare) turns away patients who express doubt about undergoing (or even say outright that they don’t want to undergo) SRS, and most people who need HRT, will do almost anything to get it. Hence, people lie about wanting SRS, in order to get HRT.

Obviously, there will be some situations of regret (though thankfully, for many the procedure was just “not crucial”, and they end up neither regretting it or having much benefit from it - it was simply a neutral event) when the public system pressures people to either go for SRS or be denied treatment. The alternative is to pay for HRT yourself - it isn’t really that expensive, but for a group where an unproportionate amount of people are on disability, it is a factor, especially when you include things like hair removal and in some cases face feminization surgery (which for many patients is therapeutically far more important than SRS, but still not covered) for trans women, mastectomy (which at least is covered here, but only if you get a hysterectomy too) for trans men, and other things that are often not covered by insurance or welfare since they’re seen as “cosmetic”.

Additionally, the requirement in many countries to undergo SRS before getting the gender marker changed in official documents makes life very difficult for people: Imagine checking into a flight, and your passport shows you’re the opposite gender of what you present as. It often results in not being allowed to board, or humiliating “checkups” to “confirm” you’re a “man”. Such situations will cause many to approach SRS even if they initially didn’t want it.

The same goes for the famous restroom debate - if someone who perhaps doesn’t always pass risks being subjected to ID checks by police or owners when trying to use the restroom, or worse, risk being brought in to check genitals, after a while SRS may seem more appealing than having to hold your bladder for hours at a time. This is interestingly not a problem in my country, where the other two things I mentioned are highly actual problems. People tend to mind their own business here, it’s a cultural thing.

In general, the percentage of transgender people who receive SRS is lower in countries where HRT is “freely” (of course still with some gatekeeping - it is crucial to screen for psychosis or other conditions which would diminish the faculty to consent) available without having to pretend to want SRS, where the gender marker can be changed without getting it, where people won’t be in danger from police (or even worse, vigilantes) if trying to use the restroom they feel safe in, and so on.

Sadly, conservatives generally try to block these changes, and hence they actually contribute to keeping the SRS rate higher than necessary. I believe SRS should be used only where it is therapeutically necessary (i.e. as a last resort), not where it’s needed to board a plane, use a restroom or receive HRT. It is invaluable when done for the right reasons, and possibly a disaster when not.

 

[marymary1975]

The “problem” is that the problem has no treatment! There is no pill.

I don’t agree with that. The problem is that society wants to force sex change surgery as the “only” treatment option and wants to push in society that if people suffering of gender dysphoria are not made belief a lie they will all end with major issues. The treatment to me (which is pretty much what it was done with me since I started arguing with my family that I was a boy) is to find out why the child is acting like that. When I was probably about 7 my grandmother sat me down and she asked me why I kept saying that I was a boy, I think I said something along the lines of because boys play with cars, robots, have short hair, play sports who’s is what I like and I did not like dolls or pink. My grandmother told me that I still could play with cars and robots while being a girl. She found out the reason and while she allowed me to do what I liked she kept a firm position that I was a girl and I had to accept that. I did not like it at the moment and probably I didn’t like it until many years and it took me many more years of a lot of guidance and conversations with my grandmother and several priests, but I was finally able to accept that I was a woman (not precisely a feminine one) but I was and am a woman, just a little different from the common mold. I also think that strict /rigid gender roles in society should be heavily blamed for this, beca use if you have a child like me who by nature does not fully fit the strict gender role of a girl, that child is going to automatically feel that there is something very wrong with her, if from the very beginning you don’t reaffirm to the child that she is still a girl but just a girl who has different preferences then that child is going to start rejecting her own sex and resenting her own self. So there is a way to deal with the situation but the way to do it involves self acceptance and relaxing a little strict gender roles and secular society does not want that because they just want push people to transgenderism.

 

[Rin]

The problem is that society wants to force sex change surgery as the “only” treatment option

No, society does not do that.

The process to get SRS is long and rigorous, and most people end up not going through with the surgery. The prevalent view is that surgery should be the last resort, and that the patient should at the very least have been a year on HRT before surgery is considered.

Yes, HRT is seen as the “only” effective treatment option, because it is the only treatment option that is known to be universally beneficial in transgender patients. Surgery, however, is only considered if HRT proved helpful, but the patient still is dysphoric. The majority of patients end up feeling fine with HRT (and often hair removal) only, and SRS is not recommended in those cases.

So basically, the idea that society somehow wants to “force” SRS on people is a straw man. Specialists will gladly say that they believe HRT to be the only viable option if the patient is truly transgender, even more so because psychological reaction to it is a great diagnostic tool. But few, if any, specialists, would “push” SRS unless it’s absolutely necessary for the patient’s wellbeing.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I don’t agree with that. The problem is that society wants to force sex change surgery as the “only” treatment option and wants to push in society that if people suffering of gender dysphoria are not made belief a lie they will all end with major issues. The treatment to me (which is pretty much what it was done with me since I started arguing with my family that I was a boy) is to find out why the child is acting like that. When I was probably about 7 my grandmother sat me down and she asked me why I kept saying that I was a boy, I think I said something along the lines of because boys play with cars, robots, have short hair, play sports who’s is what I like and I did not like dolls or pink. My grandmother told me that I still could play with cars and robots while being a girl. She found out the reason and while she allowed me to do what I liked she kept a firm position that I was a girl and I had to accept that. I did not like it at the moment and probably I didn’t like it until many years and it took me many more years of a lot of guidance and conversations with my grandmother and several priests, but I was finally able to accept that I was a woman (not precisely a feminine one) but I was and am a woman, just a little different from the common mold. I also think that strict /rigid gender roles in society should be heavily blamed for this, beca use if you have a child like me who by nature does not fully fit the strict gender role of a girl, that child is going to automatically feel that there is something very wrong with her, if from the very beginning you don’t reaffirm to the child that she is still a girl but just a girl who has different preferences then that child is going to start rejecting her own sex and resenting her own self. So there is a way to deal with the situation but the way to do it involves self acceptance and relaxing a little strict gender roles and secular society does not want that because they just want push people to transgenderism.

None of the transgender people I know want “to force sex change surgery as the ‘only’ treatment option”. They want to make SRS available, not mandatory. HRT is the only treatment that has been proven to help. SRS as also been shown to help.

The extreme rigidity to which some conservative cling to the 1950’s “femininity” raising it up as the concept of perfect femininity is a) disturbing, b) historically wrong, c) profoundly harmful to womankind. We do need to get away from the rigidity which some conservatives see as perfection, everyone benefits from it.

 

[marymary1975]

No, society does not do that.

The process to get SRS is long and rigorous, and most people end up not going through with the surgery. The prevalent view is that surgery should be the last resort, and that the patient should at the very least have been a year on HRT before surgery is considered.

Yes, HRT is seen as the “only” effective treatment option, because it is the only treatment option that is known to be universally beneficial in transgender patients. Surgery, however, is only considered if HRT proved helpful, but the patient still is dysphoric. The majority of patients end up feeling fine with HRT (and often hair removal) only, and SRS is not recommended in those cases.

So basically, the idea that society somehow wants to “force” SRS on people is a straw man. Specialists will gladly say that they believe HRT to be the only viable option if the patient is truly transgender, even more so because psychological reaction to it is a great diagnostic tool. But few, if any, specialists, would “push” SRS unless it’s absolutely necessary for the patient’s wellbeing.

I did not have hormone therapy so if the only effective treatment is hormone therapy then how come I did not need hormone therapy?

Hormone therapy goes along the same philophy of the only treatment being living the lie that your sex is not your actual sex but what you think your sex is. Falls within the same category of of sex reassignment surgery. What is being pushed as the only solution is the idea of living a lie is the only solution and that is not true.

 

[marymary1975]

**

None of the transgender people I know want “to force sex change surgery as the ‘only’ treatment option”. They want to make SRS available, not mandatory. HRT is the only treatment that has been proven to help. SRS as also been shown to help.

The extreme rigidity to which some conservative cling to the 1950’s “femininity” raising it up as the concept of perfect femininity is a) disturbing, b) historically wrong, c) profoundly harmful to womankind. We do need to get away from the rigidity which some conservatives see as perfection, everyone benefits from it.

Again if the only existing treatment proven to help is HRT then how come I haven’t committed suicide yet and how come I am able to live a normal life? If indeed that is the only way a person who suffers from gender dysphoria (and particularly since about 3 or 4 years old) can be treater then I should have jumped out of a bringde a long time ago.

 

[Rin]

I did not have hormone therapy so if the only effective treatment is hormone therapy then how come I did not need hormone therapy?

Well, perhaps you simply weren’t transgender to begin with?

It is wholly unproblematic to me that some people with gender identity issues resolve those issues without the help of hormones. It is actually obvious; transgenderism is not the only condition that can affect gender identity.

The problem with your position, is that it is in the form of “this is my history, and no one else’s can be different. If I did not need hormones, then nobody does. If I ended up happy without transitioning, then everyone can.”

I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t work as an argument, neither is it true. There are thousands of people who have tried everything, including what you propose. Not until they get hormone therapy do they experience relief. And not only do they experience relief, but in many cases they can stop taking psychiatric medication after a while on hormones. What you are effectively telling these people, is that they should choose misery and psychiatric illness over effective treatment, based not on Catholic doctrine, but on your own theological musings and anecdotal evidence.

Lastly, as to the definition of the term ‘transgenderism’, while not part of the formal diagnostic criteria, response to hormone replacement therapy is generally seen as a useful diagnostic tool. Basically, if the reaction is adverse, the person is likely not transgender. There may still be gender identity issues, sometimes transient and sometimes not, but they are most likely of a different nature. If the reaction is beneficial, the person is very likely transgender. There is reason to believe this has to do with brain structure, since in typical individuals, cross-sex hormones have adverse effects psychologically, as evidenced by the horrid “treatment” programs of gay individuals, where hormones was sometimes used.

If you are now experiencing no psychological distress, there is good reason to believe your reaction to hormones would have been adverse, and hence that your issues were of a different nature than transgenderism. The good thing is that such adverse reactions are generally quite obvious, and the patient wiill either quit on their own or be advised to quit if they persist despite the reaction. The latter is however extraordinarily rare. If you were allowed to try hormone therapy, there is therefore no reason to believe it would have ended in tragedy; you would simply have quit, like many others do.

Generally, be careful about asserting that your experience is everyone’s experience, and that what worked for you will work for everyone. We are not all alike. I’m the first to tell people that treatment for transgenderism is highly individual, ranging from low-dose hormonal intervention, to “full” treatment with surgery. The vast majority of patients end up somewhere in between. But if the patient is truly transgender, no amount of therapy will resolve the situation; this is virtually the only common trait.

Hormone therapy goes along the same philophy of the only treatment being living the lie that your sex is not your actual sex but what you think your sex is. Falls within the same category of of sex reassignment surgery. What is being pushed as the only solution is the idea of living a lie is the only solution and that is not true.

I’m honestly tired of rebutting this line now, so I’m afraid I won’t respond.

 

[Rin]

I did not have hormone therapy so if the only effective treatment is hormone therapy then how come I did not need hormone therapy?

Well, perhaps you simply weren’t transgender to begin with?

It is wholly unproblematic to me that some people with gender identity issues resolve those issues without the help of hormones. It is actually obvious; transgenderism is not the only condition that can affect gender identity.

The problem with your position, is that it is in the form of “this is my history, and no one else’s can be different. If I did not need hormones, then nobody does. If I ended up happy without transitioning, then everyone can.”

I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t work as an argument, neither is it true. There are thousands of people who have tried everything, including what you propose. Not until they get hormone therapy do they experience relief. And not only do they experience relief, but in many cases they can stop taking psychiatric medication after a while on hormones. What you are effectively telling these people, is that they should choose misery and psychiatric illness over effective treatment, based not on Catholic doctrine, but on your own theological musings and anecdotal evidence.

Lastly, as to the definition of the term ‘transgenderism’, while not part of the formal diagnostic criteria, response to hormone replacement therapy is generally seen as a useful diagnostic tool. Basically, if the reaction is adverse, the person is likely not transgender. There may still be gender identity issues, sometimes transient and sometimes not, but they are most likely of a different nature. If the reaction is beneficial, the person is very likely transgender. There is reason to believe this has to do with brain structure, since in typical individuals, cross-sex hormones have adverse effects psychologically, as evidenced by the horrid “treatment” programs of gay individuals, where hormones was sometimes used.

If you are now experiencing no psychological distress, there is good reason to believe your reaction to hormones would have been adverse, and hence that your issues were of a different nature than transgenderism. The good thing is that such adverse reactions are generally quite obvious, and the patient wiill either quit on their own or be advised to quit if they persist despite the reaction. The latter is however extraordinarily rare. If you were allowed to try hormone therapy, there is therefore no reason to believe it would have ended in tragedy; you would simply have quit, like many others do.

Generally, be careful about asserting that your experience is everyone’s experience, and that what worked for you will work for everyone. We are not all alike. I’m the first to tell people that treatment for transgenderism is highly individual, ranging from low-dose hormonal intervention, to “full” treatment with surgery. The vast majority of patients end up somewhere in between. But if the patient is truly transgender, no amount of therapy will resolve the situation; this is virtually the only common trait.

Hormone therapy goes along the same philophy of the only treatment being living the lie that your sex is not your actual sex but what you think your sex is. Falls within the same category of of sex reassignment surgery. What is being pushed as the only solution is the idea of living a lie is the only solution and that is not true.

I’m honestly tired of rebutting this line now, so I’m afraid I won’t respond.

 

[marymary1975]

We are talking about Gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a conflict between the person’s sex and the gender that person’s believe he or she is. Transgender is a person whose basically chosen gender expression is different than its sex. Yes I am not transgender because I don’t pretend to be a man but I would be a 100% fit in case of gender dysphoria: at 4 years old I grab scissors and I cut all my hair and when asked why the reason I gave was that boys have short hair, at five I threw a mayor fit when a unfirom I had to wear was a skirt because boys don’t wear skirt, I never ever played with a doll in my life. I played with cars and robot, wore pants, t-shirts and sneakers and had short hair, I used to ask to be called Mike because I hated my name Mary, if you see a picture if me before 9 you would think I was a boy. In fact I remember going to a fair when I was 16 and when we got to the gate the ticket person told my friend that the little boy (that was me) entered for free because boys under 13 did not pay (confused with a 12 year old boy at 16…OK) . I had always trouble relating to female friends up until today because nothing I do or like, is something most women do or like. Even today I don’t like the usual thing women like: I don’t like shopping, I hate skirts, make up, heels, purses dresses, I prefer to go to a demolition derby, watch NASCAR, sports, do martial arts, etc. Most people even up to this day think I have a personality that fits more with men than with women. I don’t dress like a man but I am far away from being feminine so I do fall into every characteristic of a person with gender dyaphoria the only difference with me is that I never became a transgender and I fully accept that I am a woman not a man.

You stated that the only treatment for a person like me was hormonal treatment. I am not saying my case is also everyone else’s (though my case specially since starting at a young age is very similar to most kids that at 4 or 5 start manifesting they are from a different sex) bit you stated that the only treatment for someone like me would be hormonal therapy. So if that is the ONLY treatment, how was I able to go by without hormonal therapy? Your initial argument basically was that then I did not suffer gender disphoria however if you put anyone to see just my childhood pictures without knowing anything else they would state that I had gender dysphoria.

I am not saying that other people’s experiences cannot be different. What I am telling you is that there ARE other ways to treat gender dysphoria without resorting to transgenderism, the problem is that these other treatments entail not becoming a transgender and what current society wants is precisely to turn a person with gender dysphoria into a transgender. Most cases if gender dysphoria are not properly handled and sincerely I have rarely seen any parent or teacher handling properly a case of a kid dealing with gender dysphoria.

 

[Rin]

Mary:

I never said that the only treatment for “someone like you” was hormonal treatment. I said the only treatment for people with gender dysphoria, aka transgenderism, aka transsexualism (you’ve got the definitions wrong here, I’m afraid; people sometimes use the terms differently, but essentially they’re used to refer to the same phenomenon) is hormonal treatment.

It is possible to apparently fit the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria, without truly being gender dysphoric. However, in those cases it is not persistent, and the person will react adversely to hormones. A skilled therapist specialized on gender dysphoria in children is also skilled in separating transient gender identity issues from true gender dysphoria. And in the extraordinarily rare false positives, adverse reaction to hormones will prevent further transition. In the (sadly) far more common false negatives, adverse reaction to puberty will cause the patient to come back, though with much higher medical challenges.

I will not doubt your history. But I will doubt that your reaction to hormones would have been beneficial, provided your story is correct. There is massive clinical experience to support this; the brain is rather adamant in its resistance to the “wrong” hormones. There is sadly also massive clinical experience to prove that alternative therapies do not work, and that people who need hormones but don’t get them, very often end up disabled or dead from depression.

Lastly, as has been pointed out to you before, you seem to think this is mainly a matter of superficial gender traits like wanting to play with trucks instead of dolls. This is one of many reasons I believe you were not truly gender dysphoric; the diagnosis includes intense negative feelings toward one’s own body, especially toward the changes happening in puberty. I’m not merely speaking of adjustment problems, but about intense dysphoria which untreated will put the patient in risk of possibly lethal self-injury. The problem is with the body, not society. I would still be gender dysphoric were I naked and alone on a desert island devoid of toys. What you describe sounds more like a dislike of those things generally described by society as “feminine” - which has less to do with gender identity and more to do with society. I’m not saying your situation was easy - the demand to conform in today’s society can be massive, tell me about it… However, applying your experience to gender dysphoric patients is comparing apples and oranges.

Personally, the traits in early childhood were subtle; I surely demonstrated signs of wanting to play with dolls and the like, but I rarely insisted. However, my life has been a nightmare since puberty. No amount of therapy, counseling, parental (may I add gentle and charitable) guidance, even receiving the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Penance, or anything else has helped. As to the “more often” advice I sometimes see given, I went to Communion daily and Confession weekly. It helped me tremendously spiritually, but the gender dysphoria got steadily worse, until I simply could not take it anymore. In a sense, I’m back to square one, after deciding to repress my problems in my mid-teens. I have been living a lie for more than one and a half decade now, and it’s time to end it. I am done pretending to be someone I’m not, and I’m done conforming to ideological opinions not even doctrinally taught by the Church.

What I have been saying is that for people like me, who fit the criteria of gender dysphoria including persistence (three decades would qualify, wouldn’t you say?) and severe body dysphoria, hormonal intervention is the only therapy proven to work universally. And I would give everything to have been offered puberty blockers before this nightmare started. To never have had to put on a facade, and live a lie, to please people around me. Period.

 

[Rau]

We are talking about Gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a conflict between the person’s sex and the gender that person’s believe he or she is. Transgender is a person whose basically chosen gender expression is different than its sex. Yes I am not transgender because I don’t pretend to be a man but I would be a 100% fit in case of gender dysphoria: at 4 years old I grab scissors and I cut all my hair and when asked why the reason I gave was that boys have short hair, at five I threw a mayor fit when a unfirom I had to wear was a skirt because boys don’t wear skirt, I never ever played with a doll in my life. I played with cars and robot, wore pants, t-shirts and sneakers and had short hair, I used to ask to be called Mike because I hated my name Mary, if you see a picture if me before 9 you would think I was a boy. In fact I remember going to a fair when I was 16 and when we got to the gate the ticket person told my friend that the little boy (that was me) entered for free because boys under 13 did not pay (confused with a 12 year old boy at 16…OK) . I had always trouble relating to female friends up until today because nothing I do or like, is something most women do or like. Even today I don’t like the usual thing women like: I don’t like shopping, I hate skirts, make up, heels, purses dresses, I prefer to go to a demolition derby, watch NASCAR, sports, do martial arts, etc. Most people even up to this day think I have a personality that fits more with men than with women. I don’t dress like a man but I am far away from being feminine so I do fall into every characteristic of a person with gender dyaphoria the only difference with me is that I never became a transgender and I fully accept that I am a woman not a man.

You stated that the only treatment for a person like me was hormonal treatment. I am not saying my case is also everyone else’s (though my case specially since starting at a young age is very similar to most kids that at 4 or 5 start manifesting they are from a different sex) bit you stated that the only treatment for someone like me would be hormonal therapy. So if that is the ONLY treatment, how was I able to go by without hormonal therapy? Your initial argument basically was that then I did not suffer gender disphoria however if you put anyone to see just my childhood pictures without knowing anything else they would state that I had gender dysphoria.

I am not saying that other people’s experiences cannot be different. What I am telling you is that there ARE other ways to treat gender dysphoria without resorting to transgenderism, the problem is that these other treatments entail not becoming a transgender and what current society wants is precisely to turn a person with gender dysphoria into a transgender. Most cases if gender dysphoria are not properly handled and sincerely I have rarely seen any parent or teacher handling properly a case of a kid dealing with gender dysphoria.

Mary how old were you when the desire to be a boy faded away?

How did you react to the bodily changes of puberty?

 

[marymary1975]

Mary:

I never said that the only treatment for “someone like you” was hormonal treatment. I said the only treatment for people with gender dysphoria, aka transgenderism, aka transsexualism (you’ve got the definitions wrong here, I’m afraid; people sometimes use the terms differently, but essentially they’re used to refer to the same phenomenon) is hormonal treatment.

It is possible to apparently fit the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria, without truly being gender dysphoric. However, in those cases it is not persistent, and the person will react adversely to hormones.

Lastly, as has been pointed out to you before, you seem to think this is mainly a matter of superficial gender traits like wanting to play with trucks instead of dolls. This is one of many reasons I believe you were not truly gender dysphoric; the diagnosis includes intense negative feelings toward one’s own body, especially toward the changes happening in puberty. I’m not merely speaking of adjustment problems, but about intense dysphoria which untreated will put the patient in risk of possibly lethal self-injury. The problem is with the body, not society. I would still be gender dysphoric were I naked and alone on a desert island devoid of toys. What you describe sounds more like a dislike of those things generally described by society as “feminine” - which has less to do with gender identity and more to do with society. I’m not saying your situation was easy - the demand to conform in today’s society can be massive, tell me about it… However, applying your experience to gender dysphoric patients is comparing apples and oranges.

Personally, the traits in early childhood were subtle; I surely demonstrated signs of wanting to play with dolls and the like, but I rarely insisted. However, my life has been a nightmare since puberty. No amount of therapy, counseling, parental (may I add gentle and charitable) guidance, even receiving the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Penance, or anything else has helped. As to the “more often” advice I sometimes see given, I went to Communion daily and Confession weekly. It helped me tremendously spiritually, but the gender dysphoria got steadily worse, until I simply could not take it anymore. In a sense, I’m back to square one, after deciding to repress my problems in my mid-teens. I have been living a lie for more than one and a half decade now, and it’s time to end it. I am done pretending to be someone I’m not, and I’m done conforming to ideological opinions not even doctrinally taught by the Church.

What I have been saying is that for people like me, who fit the criteria of gender dysphoria including persistence (three decades would qualify, wouldn’t you say?) and severe body dysphoria, hormonal intervention is the only therapy proven to work universally. And I would give everything to have been offered puberty blockers before this nightmare started. To never have had to put on a facade, and live a lie, to please people around me. Period.

What kind of definition are you using for both gender dysphoria? The one I am giving you is basically the one from DSM 5 as to children with the only different that I am switching assigned gender at birth by sex. There is six criteria if I remember correctly in the DSM as to gender dysphoria in children which does not seem to fully fit what you are saying. You seem to be phocusing on phase II. However I would like to know your definition.

Your fourth paragraph reinforces even more what I say regarding gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria boils down to a huge self hatred. HRT does not treat the self hatred of just masks it into a lie to make you believe you ate something different from what you hate. You still hate your body you are lying to your own self to make you believe you are something different to then be able to put a blindfold on reality and avoid your own self hatred. HRT does not deal with the reality behind GD it is just cutting branches but the real problem - self hatred remains.

You are basically assuming that mine was superficial and using that as your own reasoning to explain to yourself why someone with GD was able to successfully overcome without the need of hormone therapy but that is not true. I too experience massive selfbhatred towards my body during my teenage years. I hates puberty and I still remained trying to attempt to look like a boy to the point that at 16 people would confused me with a 12 year old boy. I did not have a mere dislike. My teenage years were very troublesome and I was full of hate against my own body. It was a long process that took me many many years to overcome and lot of mental effort and tackling the problem indeed not the branches. What happened with me was that the self hatred was not persistent! Hence now it has become just more a dislike but it hasn’t been always like that. But thanks to having a very wise grandmother and very wise people around me who were able to help me to understand my problem and helped me to overcome my own hate against my body I was able to finally let the hate go.

Again in your case I still think you are cutting branches. You still hate your own body and the hormone therapy is just masking that hate to help you look the other way and ignore reality. That is not a real solution because you still hate your body. That is why I don’t agree with it and why I say is not true that is the only effective treatment. The effective treatment is face your own self and stop hating yourself. What happens is that it is very difficult, it is tiresome, requires a lot of work and means to fight your own self which most people are not willing to do.